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ASKING 'PERMISSION' OF OBAMA TO SECEDE? (Look at Constitution in light of popular petition drive)
WND ^ | 11/15/2012 | Alan Keyes

Posted on 11/15/2012 6:34:40 PM PST by SeekAndFind

The beginning is more than half the whole, the ancient philosopher famously said. The ongoing failure of America’s free institutions is especially due to the failure, in this generation, to understand and perpetuate the faith of the founding. The success American liberty has achieved from that time to this owes much to the fact that the outstanding leaders of the founding generation were willing to articulate the reasonable faith that characterized what they called the “genius” of the American people.

So in our time it is the apostasy of America’s elites, and their willful disrespect for, and rejection of, the reasonable, decent moral understanding of the people, that engenders and deliberately promotes the failure of liberty. The foundational premise of that understanding is the self-evident truth that the Creator God endowed each and every human being with rights, inherent in the nature of humanity, that human government exists to secure.

A necessary corollary of that understanding is the right of the people to alter or abolish government institutions that abandon this purpose of government, abusively violating the rights just government power exists to defend.

In the aftermath of the recent election, a new secessionist movement has surfaced in which citizens are “posting petitions on the White House site requesting permission to peacefully secede from the union.” This week a WND article about this movement referenced an article that cited “a 2006 letter purporting to be from Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia that said: ‘There is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, “one Nation, indivisible.”)’” If accurate, Scalia’s quotation of words from the Pledge differs significantly from the official text, as set in the U.S. Code at 4 USC 4.

(Excerpt) Read more at wnd.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: constitution; secession

1 posted on 11/15/2012 6:34:46 PM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind
Dear King George:

Would it be ok with you if we declared independence from England? Thanks in advance.

The Colonists

2 posted on 11/15/2012 6:38:46 PM PST by Enterprise ("Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire)
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To: SeekAndFind

There is no “movement” afoot.
Just some grumbling.

Serious folks don’t ask permesso.


3 posted on 11/15/2012 6:39:47 PM PST by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: SeekAndFind

Maybe we could sue to overturn the election because overcoming fraud placed an unfair burden on us. LOL

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2959958/posts


4 posted on 11/15/2012 6:40:28 PM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: SeekAndFind

Unfortunately Alan long ago lost any true understanding of the political process in the US. He can claim whatever he wants ( as can the petitioners). There will be no secession even if that is enforced by the military.


5 posted on 11/15/2012 6:44:15 PM PST by Nifster
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To: SeekAndFind

Other than destroying the Union and the Constitution there is no “right” to secede.

There IS the right to convene a Constitutional Convention to replace our beloved USC with whatever we want (given the 47% problem do we really want that?) God Bless old T.J.

Texas v. White: learn it, know it, love it.


6 posted on 11/15/2012 6:46:14 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Here comes bama claus here comes bama claus left down bama claus lane!)
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To: freedumb2003

You don’t ask the government that you’re trying to secede from, for permission. You either win or lose, and since the winner writes the history, the winner will always be right.


7 posted on 11/15/2012 7:00:50 PM PST by Husker24
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To: mylife

Serious folks would move to a state with a small population like Montana or Wyoming, and make serious changes in the attitude of states rights. It would not take that many folks, especially baby boomers who are retired and mobile.


8 posted on 11/15/2012 7:23:59 PM PST by Baynative
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To: SeekAndFind

A petition to secede may reflect the wishes of the majority of a state, but it seems like any secession petition would have to come from the state legislature. What if emperor 0bama approves a petition put forth by a bunch of guys, but the state government doesn’t want to secede? Are they in or out?


9 posted on 11/15/2012 7:25:08 PM PST by The Sons of Liberty (Remember the Heroic SEALs of Benghazi and DEMAND a Full Accounting!!!!)
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To: Nifster

“There will be no secession even if that is enforced by the military.”

Which military?


10 posted on 11/15/2012 7:36:34 PM PST by sergeantdave (The FBI has declared war on the Marine Corps)
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To: Baynative

Last time I looked liberals were buying up Montana.
On top of that, lots of Montana and Wyoming are federal lands.
Also there are large reservations that are on the Gov teat.

Texas is almost all privately held land, but even they are not serious, and the Feds inundate us with illegals that we cannot deport.


11 posted on 11/15/2012 7:37:00 PM PST by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: freedumb2003
There IS the right to convene a Constitutional Convention to replace our beloved USC with whatever we want

An Article V Convention (like the Congress) could only propose amendments each of which would not become a part of the Constitution unless ratified by three-fourths of the States. Such a convention (like the Congress) could not replace the Constitution or unilaterally amend the Constitution.

12 posted on 11/15/2012 7:46:26 PM PST by Repeal 16-17 (Let me know when the Shooting starts.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Free Men need not ask permission.


13 posted on 11/15/2012 8:10:20 PM PST by Texas Fossil
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To: freedumb2003

Of course there is a right to secede, it is part and parcel of the right of self-governance. That exists independently of and outside the authority of the United States government, so any court case you cite is irrelevant.


14 posted on 11/15/2012 8:16:04 PM PST by Boogieman
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To: SeekAndFind
Any petition or movement to secede acknowledges and lends credence to the attachment to the parent nation.

This is not what the FFs did in 1776.

They declared themselves independent, and the document is a blueprint for us today, in its thoughtfulness and brevity.

We should by all means start thinking about what should go in the new edition.

Our grievances are significant and the things we have done to try to get along are numerous.

Such a document would serve to convince us to go ahead with independence, and would explain to many clueless individuals just what we are motivated by.

"Let the facts be submitted to a candid world."

15 posted on 11/15/2012 8:17:41 PM PST by caddie
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To: SeekAndFind

And, by the way, contrary to Scalia, the right to secede is plainly stated in the Second Amendment to the Constitution.


16 posted on 11/15/2012 8:18:58 PM PST by caddie
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To: Nifster

There isn’t enough standing military in this country to enforce a no spitting ordinance in Chicago.

That being said asking Obama for permission to secede is pretty adolescent. If a state legislature were to decide to secede they wouldn’t ask permission.

Secession is totally unnecessary. The Federal govt only has the power that is granted to it by the states. They can use the 10th ammendment anytime and bring the Fed to its knees in a few weeks. Eventually that is what will happen. 20 states working together could easily do it.


17 posted on 11/15/2012 8:28:14 PM PST by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: SeekAndFind

This petition website at whitehut, where they promise to respond if you get 25,000 signatures is a joke.
You have to register and provide a valid email, etc.

Does anyone think they give a rats a$$ about any petitions? If you don’t have 50 million signatures, they will laugh.

This website is nothing but part of the vast Obama data mining operation. If you sign a petition for more electric cars,, you will be targeted for grassroots support everytime a global warming bill comes up.
They identify you with the causes you care about, and use that in campaign targeting. Thats all that site is. Don’t give them a thing.

If you are serious about secession, you SHOULD be petitioning your governor and state representatives.


18 posted on 11/15/2012 8:47:43 PM PST by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: freedumb2003

“Other than destroying the Union and the Constitution there is no “right” to secede”

Of course there is. Thats exactly what the founders did from England. And there is not the slightest sign they meant it to be a suicide pact that when you join, you may never depart. They clearly had the chance to address that, and did not. That has an unmistakable meaning under the 10th amendment.
The constitution discusses that admission of states, and not the departure. Then the 10th amendment says powers not specifically granted to the Feds are left with the states. That CLEARLY includes deciding to leave the union.

As for Texas vs White, thats a joke. It was a case heard 4 years after the civil war when a reconstruction court said there is no right to secession over a financial issue. Big surprise. Thats like a wife with a good job, needing the permission of a drunken, abusive, unemployed, syphilitic husband before she can divorce him.

The very concept that the Feds solely retain the right to decide if you may leave is ludicrous on its face.

All they can do is decide whether or not to launch a ground war against you. But the right to leave is inherent in every writing and act of our founders, including the declaration and the constitution.


19 posted on 11/15/2012 9:08:20 PM PST by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: Georgia Girl 2

Unfortunately Roberts disproved that during the O care decision. The federal government now seems to be able to whatever it wants and there is no existing mechanism to stop them. I do not believe that folks who are busy deciding not to vote because a candidate is not pure enough for them or has a different belief than them can possibly come together to stand against the SEIU let alone the military which has been loaded up with people who will follow orders (see Petraeus and his ridiculous testimony before congress in Sept).


20 posted on 11/15/2012 10:03:42 PM PST by Nifster
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To: freedumb2003

[Quote]
Other than destroying the Union and the Constitution there is no “right” to secede.

There IS the right to convene a Constitutional Convention to replace our beloved USC with whatever we want (given the 47% problem do we really want that?) God Bless old T.J.

Texas v. White: learn it, know it, love it.
[Unquote]

You are bady mistaken and misrepresenting Texas v. White, which does confirm only one means of lawfully seceding a State from the Union of the United States., which is with the same consent of the States which authorized the accession to the Union of the United States.

The only other means of secession is unlawful revolution as described by Texas v. White. Petitions for secession to a lawful President or to an unlawful usurper of the Office of the President may when accompanied by violence or the threat of violence be construed as qa violation of a number of Federal criminal statutes. Compliance with the Constitution requires a State to submit a request to the U.S.Congress for approval by the Congress and ratification by the States. This is exactly the same procedure used to admit the State to the Union. Petitions to the White House are by their very nature subversive of the Constitution and Federal law.


21 posted on 11/15/2012 11:41:12 PM PST by WhiskeyX
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To: Enterprise

The United States did so. It eventually cluminated in the Treaty of Paris 1783.


22 posted on 11/15/2012 11:42:46 PM PST by WhiskeyX
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To: Husker24

“You don’t ask the government that you’re trying to secede from, for permission.”

That’s nonsense, because there have been numerous instances in history when secessions occurred by mutual agreement. More recently Czechoslovakia mutually agreed to secession. It made sense because their accession was a somewhat arbitrary mismatch of two cultures as a result of the breakup of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

The secessionist petitions in the present discussion are wholly unwarranted, illicit in nature and presentation, and serve no useful purpose whatsoever.


23 posted on 11/16/2012 12:02:19 AM PST by WhiskeyX
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To: Nifster

Chief Justice Roberts may be impeached just as soon as you impeach and/or remove the Senators who obstruct the impeachment/s. You’re not going to get very far, however, if you fail to get voters to attend the local party political meetings and effectively compel the States and Congress to enforce the laws and remove ineligible and criminal legislators and judiciary.


24 posted on 11/16/2012 12:07:53 AM PST by WhiskeyX
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To: SeekAndFind

Of course it isn’t about seceding. It civil disobedience in a peaceful way.


25 posted on 11/16/2012 12:19:47 AM PST by vpintheak (Occupy your Brain!)
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To: freedumb2003
Other than destroying the Union and the Constitution there is no “right” to secede.

LOL! Yes there is. The States seceded from the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union, and the new treaty they wrote called the U.S. Constitution didn't change that.

And since the seceding states, by establishing a new constitution and form of federal government among themselves, without the consent of the rest, have shown that they consider the right to do so whenever the occasion may, in their opinion require it, as unquestionable, we may infer that that right has not been diminished by any new compact which they may since have entered into, since none could be more solemn or explicit than the first, nor more binding upon the contracting parties. Their obligation, therefore, to preserve the present constitution, is not greater than their former obligations were, to adhere to the articles of confederation; each state possessing the same right of withdrawing itself from the confederacy without the consent of the rest, as any number of them do, or ever did, possess. Prudence, indeed, will dictate, that governments established by compact should not be changed for light or transient causes; but should a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evince a design in any one of the confederates to usurp a dominion over the rest; or, if those who are entrusted to administer the government, which the confederates have for their mutual convenience established, should manifest a design to invade their sovereignty, and extend their own power beyond the terms of compact, to the detriment of the states respectively, and to reduce them to a state of obedience, and finally to establish themselves in a state of permanent superiority, it then becomes not only the right, but the duty of the states respectively, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.
Of the Several Forms of Government, St. George Tucker, View of the Constitution of the United States, Section XIII

-----

Texas v. White: learn it, know it, love it.

DO please show us the authority given in the Constitution OR the Judiciary Act of 1789 that allows the US Supreme Court to sit in judgment on a case between a State and one of IT'S OWN citizens.

26 posted on 11/16/2012 4:50:04 AM PST by MamaTexan (In Propria Persona)
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To: freedumb2003

A sham ruling by the Supreme Court of an illegal force of occupation.


27 posted on 11/16/2012 5:15:38 AM PST by TexConfederate1861 (Deo Vindice (God will vindicate) February 22, 1861)
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To: WhiskeyX

see you and I agree. but I am not seeing conservatives coming together around the country to do that.


28 posted on 11/16/2012 9:46:26 AM PST by Nifster
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To: Nifster

I attended a Republican county officer’s meeting last night. There were only 15 people there including myself and my wife. For all of the wailing, gnashing of teeth, gloom and doom, you would think some part of the thousands of Republicans in the county would have been at that meeting and clamoring for an opprtunity to voice their complaints and demands to the county officers. This is one of the principal reasons why I have no sympathy for all of the crying around aboutt not having an opportunity to change the corruption. Too many people simply fail to oppose the corruption by neglecting their democractic rights and powers to do so in lawful self-government. If these people are going to refuse to trouble themselves to exercise their civic duties while a part of the Union, you can hardly expect them to be any more attentive to those duties and powers apart from the Union.


29 posted on 11/16/2012 12:47:37 PM PST by WhiskeyX
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To: WhiskeyX
There were only 15 people there including myself and my wife.

Perhaps many of them were either at church or at home praying. What has happened to our country the past 4 years is biblical. The majority has denounced God and he has removed his grace and protection. We will be able to fix this. The followers of the Anti Christ are now in power.

I plan to spend more time working at being a better Christian and preparing myself and my family for Gods judgment.

30 posted on 11/16/2012 1:02:45 PM PST by suijuris
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To: WhiskeyX

Exactly. I thank you for showing up and doing the hard work. This is what is needed from more folks


31 posted on 11/16/2012 4:13:14 PM PST by Nifster
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