Posted on 11/19/2012 10:51:01 AM PST by jazusamo
Killing the goose that lays the golden egg is one of those old fairy tales for children which has a heavy message that a lot of adults should listen to. The labor unions which have driven the makers of Twinkies into bankruptcy, potentially destroying 18,500 jobs, could have learned a lot from that old children's fairy tale.
Many people think of labor unions as organizations to benefit workers, and think of employers who are opposed to unions as just people who don't want to pay their employees more money. But some employers have made it a point to pay their employees more than the union wages, just to keep them from joining a union.
Why would they do that, if it is just a question of not wanting to pay union wages? The Twinkies bankruptcy is a classic example of costs created by labor unions that are not confined to paychecks.
The work rules imposed in union contracts required the company that makes Twinkies, which also makes Wonder Bread, to deliver these two products to stores in separate trucks. Moreover, truck drivers were not allowed to load either of these products into their trucks. And the people who did load Twinkies into trucks were not allowed to load Wonder Bread, and vice versa.
All of this was obviously intended to create more jobs for the unions' members. But the needless additional costs that these make-work rules created ended up driving the company into bankruptcy, which can cost 18,500 jobs. The union is killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
Not only are there reasons for employers to pay their workers enough to keep them from joining unions, there are reasons why workers in the private sector have increasingly voted against joining unions...
(Excerpt) Read more at creators.com ...
I’m distressed by the fact that the emerging narrative on unions, (even among conservatives, and this is horrifying for what it means for the future of the country) seems to run like this,
“Public sector unions are REALLY bad. There are some bad things in private sector unions, too, but they aren’t pure evil like public sector unions. Private sector unions, especially at the turn of the century, were actually pretty good.”
This is pure BS! It is very, very, very scary when, even here on FR for Pete’s sake, people do not recognize the following two things:
Unions can ONLY!!!! exist because of government force applied selectively against private property owners (evil rich people),
ALL UNIONS REPRESENT GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED THEFT OF PRIVATE PROPERTY FOR THE PURPOSE OF BUYING DEMOCRAT VOTES.
I expect ignorance of this fact elsewhere, but here on FR??????????????????????
Here’s how the purely evil, anti-American, communistic, welfare-begging private sector unions work…..
I set up a business, using MY PRIVATE PROPERTY (my capital and/or cash money).
I pay for the space, using MY PRIVATE PROPERTY.
I pay the taxes using MY PRIVATE PROPERTY.
I supply the parts and inventory, using MY PRIVATE PROPERTY.
I pay for the insurance, using MY PRIVATE PROPERTY.
I pay the labor, using MY PRIVATE PROPERTY.
I recruit, hire, and advertise, using MY PRIVATE PROPERTY.
Oftentimes an entire life’s savings (MY PRIVATE PROPERTY) is at stake.
My future, my standing in the community, my credit, and MY PRIVATE PROPERTY are all at stake.
If I fail, I stand a good chance of being economically crippled for life.
One day, on MY PRIVATE PROPERTY that I own and acquired using MY PRIVATE PROPERTY, one of my employees, who is only in my presence because of the risk of MY PRIVATE PROPERTY, comes to me and says, “Here’s the story, Bub. From this moment forward I am going to begin organizing YOUR OTHER EMPLOYEES, to work AGAINST YOUR PRIVATE INTERESTS and do everything in our power to TAKE BY FORCE AS MUCH OF YOUR PRIVATE PROPERTY AS WE CAN GET OUR HANDS ON. We are going to spend a great deal of time and effort ORGANIZING AGAINST YOUR INTERESTS TO DO EVERYTHING IN OUR POWER TO GROW STRONGER AT YOUR EXPENSE, IN ORDER TO TAKE YOUR MONEY. You might as well have your business competitors working here on the shop floor. If you do not agree to our demands, we will go on strike, make your life miserable, harass and threaten and/or MURDER IN COLD BLOOD anybody you may want to hire in our place.”
Now the one and ONLY way that such a thing could EVER take place is for the government to step in and say, “Mr. Employer (rich, white, capitalist, male), if you fire this union man, you are going to jail.”
Plainly and simply, no union could ever exist in a free society. Yes, in a free society, you should be able to form and join a union of any type at any time for any purpose whatsoever. AND YOUR EMPLOYER SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIRE YOUR HAPPY ASS IN A HEARTBEAT FOR DOING SO.
FREEDOM IS A TWO WAY STREET.
I find this ABSOLUTELY AMAZING. Truly. A man strolls onto the PRIVATE PROPERTY of another man and tells him how he will employ his PRIVATE PROPERTY going forward, OR ELSE!, and hundreds of millions, if not billions, of people the world over think that the first man is not only somehow better than sub-human filth, they actually see him as a hero! To me, this is one of the most perverse and mystifying examples of twisted human thinking the world has ever seen. I can’t say it enough; you come onto my PRIVATE PROPERTY, and bargain with me, using the THREAT OF GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED FORCE, about how much of my PRIVATE PROPERTY you will allow me to keep! And this is somehow acceptable?
As I say, even conservatives, (who have escaped the liberal brainwashing that begins when we are still in the womb on guns, race, US history, etc., etc., and do not subscribe to the easy notions that are so readily picked up by the unthinking) seem to fall for this trap. Seem to believe that…
“The work place is filled with mean managers and mean bosses who were/are really mean to kids and women and workers and paid them pennies instead of the legitimate millions that they were REALLY worth, making evil white male capitalists even richer, and they enslaved them and coerced them and made them work real hard and were really, really mean. THANK GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! for the government stepping in and saving women and children from mean bosses and really mean white capitalist men.”
Needless to say, each and every single word of that narrative is as totally false and ridiculous as the liberal narrative on US history, or bad guns, or evil white men. If you know people who believe that stuff, you cannot help them. DO NOT waste your breath on them, DO NOT do their research for them; have them read Sowell or Williams or von Hayek, or von Mises, or Friedman, or even Stossel when they write of “sweatshops” either in today’s 3rd world or in America at the turn of the century.
” Plainly and simply, no union could ever exist in a free society. Yes, in a free society, you should be able to form and join a union of any type at any time for any purpose whatsoever. AND YOUR EMPLOYER SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIRE YOUR HAPPY ASS IN A HEARTBEAT FOR DOING SO.”
Bingo
In nature as in our lives, parasites can kill the host(ess).
Public sector unions have to be dissolved.
How ironic that the hero of this fable was named “Simpleton”.
I think there are times when unions have done good, in improving working conditions and safety and such, but like civil rights groups and such, there is no need for their indefinite existence. Much of that oversight is done by the gov now anyway.
Absolutely...Dr. Sowell lays out the problem with them perfectly, the public sector unions are breaking the taxpayers.
When the baby boomers are all gone the states may have to look at budgets a little differently.
This is simply not true. There is reason for collective bargaining, even from the perspective of the employer; else companies like ManPower and ADP would not exist. The factory owner would rather not deal with personnel details.
There were real problems before the union movement that primarily stemmed from abuse of the courts via the Santa Clara v. Southern Pacific interpretation of the 14th Amendment of corporations as persons. People without money had no recourse in civil cases against such large entities.
The real problem with unions is monopoly power. If we restructured the NRLA such that unions were corporations competing in the business of supplying skilled labor, a lot of these problems would vanish.
From what I can tell, you don't think free association is an unalienable right.
Precisely, and the RATS are their enablers and that’s why RATS control CA and other big states, all of which are going BROKE or already broke.
What has ManPower and ADP got to do with unions? I don’t see any connection.
Santa Clara, 14th amendment, civil cases, NRLA, unions = competing corporations???? Smokescreens.
How’s this for a solution — If I am on your private property, your rules apply. Period.
As do private sector unions. All unions are unadulterated evil as stated so well by jazusamo in the second post of this thread. That was true in years past, today and in the future. The rise of unionism in America was due to foreign socialist influences, as revealed by the IWW ("Wobblies").
The leftist narrative builds falsehoods around such manufactured incidents as the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory of 1911. Similarly, liberal-infested Hollywood paints oh-so-sympathetic fairy tales in such movies as Matewan and Norma Rae.
Quite simply, unions are a collectivist cartel with Big Labor nothing more than an organized crime extortion racket. The full force of RICO laws should be brought down hard to exterminate every last vestige of this anti-American, anti-liberty evil force.
Jim Robinson said it best in post #249:
Unionists be damned!! Unite against the damned unionists!!
“As do private sector unions. All unions are unadulterated evil as stated so well by jazusamo in the second post of this thread.”
I think you mean “stated so well by ME, DR2Brains!”
That’s cool. I forgive you.
That’s what I keep saying. These Hostess brands are nearly double the price of the competitors. I don’t buy this stuff often but when I did, I never bought the Hostess stuff.
I take a no compromise stand when it comes to unions. And, as I have posted elsewhere here on Free Republic, among the top three moments of my long life are when I led a successful rebellion to bust a private sector union in the Big Labor stronghold of Western Pennsylvania more than 30 years ago.
You busted a union! I bow in admiration, dude. Good work.
And thanks for the kind words.
Obama’s NLRB has probably done more for their criminal enterprises than most any other president in the last 60 or 70 years. One more reason that the reelection of Obama will hurt our country tremendously in the future.
Thank you. Unfortunately, it was just one union that I and a group of Patriots were able to get decertified.
It was my reaction to how the evil forces allied around Big Labor busted an entire region. Western Pennsylvania once was the arsenal of the world, with steel mills and coal mines working 'round the clock. Both employees and employers prospered. Then, inevitably, unionists (under the control of anti-American, anti-growth socialists) killed that goose of prosperity. The alphabet soup regimes of the USWA (Iorwith Wilbur Abel), UMW (Tony Boyle), IBEW ( Gordy Freeman) and numerous others put ridiculous workplace rules as well as obscene salaries and benefits into action. This crippled not only the steel and mining companies but the dependent industries. What remains today of Wheeling, Steubenville, Weirton, Pittsburgh, Johnstown and the entire Mon Valley is a testament to the destructive nature of unions.
There is no “problem” on Earth (some still insist that there were “problems” that unions helped fix) that justifies the creation of these monstrosities that funnel 100 BAZILLION FREAKIN’ DOLLARS TO THE DEMS EVER 10 MINUTES. Dems are in office and they get literally BILLIONS from unions — now THAT’s a PROBLEM!
That's not merely an opinion, it's an undeniable fact!
We're all in agreement about the nature of unionism and my hope is that this reaches a broader audience of FReepers who may still remain moderate on the issue of Big Labor (as Doctor 2Brains made clear in his post).
The names associated with the labor movement in the past and present constitute a rogue's gallery of evil.
None of them were or are pro-American. Instead they all sought (and most were, unfortunately, successful) to stifle America's economic might through absurd regulation (giving rise to OHSA and the EPA to name but two) and confiscatory wages. La Cosa Nostra has been neutralized for the most part but the far more powerful and richer organized crime consortium known as Big Labor continues to drain our nation of wealth.
Everything, they are equivalent to what unions would be without monopoly power.
Santa Clara, 14th amendment, civil cases, NRLA, unions = competing corporations???? Smokescreens.
Two brains is inverted. If you had half a brain you would realize the those historic robber barons only existed because of collectivism. They are not and never should have been PRIVATE because they are not equivalent to people, and do not possess unalienable rights of human beings. In fact, that corporations are allotted human rights at all is due to an historical act of monstrous corruption. I don't suppose you'd like to know it was done by a communist lawyer on behalf of progressivist Republicans. That's why I referred to the headnote on Santa Clara v. Southern Pacific. Your hand-waving in reply merely exposes your ignorance. Unions are nothing more than a contract among equals. Where that breaks down is that, as corporations, they are afforded an unqual degree of protection under the NRLA granting them exemption from monopoly laws. That should be changed.
How’s this for a solution — If I am on your private property, your rules apply. Period.
Oh, so I can take your money, rape your wife, and kill you just because you are on my property?
Idiot, you clearly don't have half a brain much less two. You cannot commit murder on your property. You cannot steal my money on your property. You cannot rape my wife on your property. You cannot.
That's what laws are for, as enforced by the people or their agents. People associate to exert power as an unalienable right, as the essence of 'governments instituted among men.' Liberty is expressed individually, but it is enforced collectively. Deal with it.
You’re an idiot liberal. Deal with it.
Unions are like fire. A very useful servent, a very dangerous master.
And the bigger they get, the harder it is to control.
Oooo... aren't you smart! Can't think outside the Hegelian box the socialists made for you.
I'm no liberal. I never said I opposed right to work laws. I don't. It's you who's the collectivist here: You want the public to protect collectivized investments with minimized accountability, while refusing workers the very same right to a free association no different than among stockholders. You want to socialize the risks and privatize the benefits of your investments. A classic double standard.
I don't want EITHER side to have monopoly or even oligopoly power. I prefer FULLY private free enterprise, in other words, with real accountability via laws governed by natural law competition among the several States and not by the Feds, the latter being effectively one stop shopping for corruption. I want human beings to have rights superior to any association, union or corporate. You simply lack the vision to understand the distinctions or the solutions I posited, stuck in your bull-headed rut labeling anyone who disagrees with you a "liberal." Well here's reality turkey, your corporate game was instituted by a communist, John Chandler Bancroft Davis, Clerk of the Supreme Court, a Republican, and a Marxist when he added a bogus headnote to the decision of the Court in Santa Clara v. Southern Pacific.
Yeah, I know, you don't get it, Hegel's got your brain by the lobes. Yet corporate socialism and Marxism both comprise a system devised and funded by some of the richest bankers in Europe. Hence, you are the leftist here, you just don't know it.
You’re an idiot liberal. Deal with it.
You’re an idiot liberal. Deal with it.
THAT WAS AWESOME! I hope you don’t mind, but I reposted the majority of that on my FB page. Should probably get some panties in a bunch, and start some fur a flyin!
No Unions are like disease...... never useful...
Well! I am flattered. Thank you.
This is simply not true. There is reason for collective bargaining, even from the perspective of the employer; else companies like ManPower and ADP would not exist. The factory owner would rather not deal with personnel details.
Unions in their current form would not exist without government force applied against property owners. That does not imply that there would not be any form of collective bargaining. Trade guilds could engage in collective bargaining to the benefit of both workers and employers, if such guilds were in a position where their continued existence relied upon their ability to do so. If a trade guild refuses to accept or retain members who are not good workers, employers who hire workers from the guild would likely pay extra for doing so, but might find it easier to get quality workers than if they search for workers outside the guild. Of course, the more tolerant the guild is of bad workers, the less advantage employers would see to hiring them, and the less money the guild would be able to demand for its workforce.
One thing that I wish more people would realize is that the real battle isn't between workers and employers, whose interest substantially overlap. The real battle is between union workers and non-union (actual or prospective) workers.
Well played!!
He busted a union and all the jobs went to communist China.
Disagree there. I think the unions have done a fabulous job of serving the interests of the international banking interests that spawned them. They have forced exportation of our nation's manufacturing infrastructure (essentially a form of intellectual property) for fun and profit. Our enemies now possess the latest information to make everything from screw machines to plastic resin synthesis. Unions have facilitated taking America into socialist dictatorship from the top down. In that respect they are almost as damaging as environmental and safety regulations.
Hence, the real battle is between collectivism and private enterprise.
Free trade in labor markets is a human right. Unions never got the memo.
“You’re an idiot liberal. Deal with it.”
Perhaps you are getting a tad excited, Doctor. Take a tranquilizer and once it takes effect consider the following:
1. Whatever Carry_Okie may be, an idiot he assuredly isn’t. Hint, think standards of deviation above normal, more than just one, too.
2. Remember what Darbyshire said about life being an IQ test?
3. Carry_Okie is a master of multi-disciplinary arguments, though he (and I) tend to prefer the more correct term ‘hypothesis’.
4. The issue of corporations is a complex one, loaded with intellectual traps, an issue where things really are not as they seem.
5. In the instant case of Hostess v. Goonion, the Chinese have a saying about only a foolish man breaks his own rice bowl.
6. Thanks to Big Gubbamnet, the strikers can collect unemployment even though they are unemployed by the consequences of their own acts.
Thanks for this thread.
__________
FYI Pings.
YOU DID NOT BUILD THAT
Remember only unsuccessful parasites kill their host. The successful parasites coexist with the host.
That's not what happened at all.
When the union left our company, profits improved and management was able to upsize the staff. The adversarial relationship between we workers and the bosses vanished. Additionally, the burdensome work regulations that actually were detrimental to the employees were eliminated. For example, the turnaround time rule was tossed, allowing those of us who desired to work additional hours with some nice paychecks.
The deadwood was eliminated. Over a period of months, just about all of those who voted in favor of unionism during the decertification election were fired. I'll confess to taking real glee when a 25-year vet of the company was dismissed. He was a bad seed from the get-to, a featherbedder who thought tenure and seniority were his protection. When I engaged in the action to bust the union, this hateful creep uttered these words: "I was here when you got here and I'll be here when you leave". The Na-Na-Hey-Hey-Goodbye song was popular around that time and we who were loyal to the American spirit of free enterprise gave that union goon a serenade as he slinked out the door for good. This guy and his fellow unionistas were the real communist sympathizers since they favored collectivism.
Hostess Shrugged.
Good for them.
He’s an idiot liberal.
Fabulous. I DID read the whole thing.
Mere repetion is no substitute for either insight or hard data.
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