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The 47% have no idea how much healthcare reform will cost them
MedCity News ^ | November 5, 2012 | Jane Orient

Posted on 11/25/2012 3:45:32 PM PST by plain talk

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To: mosesdapoet; plain talk
Even to the point of going out to local eateries and bars and eavesdrop into conversations and pick up on topics being discussed.(chat rooms twitter too contrived)

Speaking of which. This afternoon I stopped off at a cafe for a snack and overheard the following:
Woman 1 to male barista: [anti-religious joke]
Male barista to Woman 1: yeah, I never believed much of that stuff anyway
Woman 1 to male barista: How can you believe it when people just pick one verse and hammer away at it and ignore everything else
Woman 1 to Woman 2 (female barista): Have you heard that thing about Romney talking about "gifts" to special interests?
Woman 2 to Woman 1: Yeah, I heard about it, about it being "gifts"
Woman 1 [cackles smugly]

The SF Bay Area is THICK with these people. You bump into them everywhere. Eavesdrop on those coffee house conversations. Make your way, if you dare, into the dark land of the progressive heathen.

51 posted on 11/25/2012 5:41:47 PM PST by thecodont
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To: Son House; All
And paying for more IRS agents.

I spoke to my Conservative Enrolled Agent gnome on this.

Her claim is that the 16,000 are not for Obamacare and the IRS refuses to enforce it.

What is scarier is what they will do with the 16,000 in a sense.

They are staffing up for the the testing that will occur next year for tax professionals to aquire a new federal license and Earned Income Credit checking / enforcement.

For one I believe her. The EIC is a nightmare with all the funky new households with multi-generations living together and everybody broke and out of work, that leads me to believe their must be a ton of bad-files in this area, by self filers, maybe even pro's..... That is a lot to digest and get your arms around....

52 posted on 11/25/2012 5:43:40 PM PST by taildragger (( Tighten the 5 point harness and brace for Impact Freepers, ya know it's coming..... ))
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To: Libloather

they will push to raise your taxes higher


53 posted on 11/25/2012 5:47:20 PM PST by faithhopecharity (--)
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To: taildragger

Just what we didn’t need.
A full employment program for all the law school grads that couldn’t find jobs in the Baraqqi Depression.


54 posted on 11/25/2012 5:51:49 PM PST by nascarnation (Baraq's economic policy: trickle up poverty)
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To: thecodont

Perhaps there will be an earthquake...


55 posted on 11/25/2012 5:54:16 PM PST by who knows what evil? (G-d saved more animals than people on the ark...www.siameserescue.org.)
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To: plain talk

What do you mean “cost”? It’s free, the Food Stamp President said so, and it’s a right!


56 posted on 11/25/2012 5:54:36 PM PST by RetiredTexasVet (The law of unintended consequences is an unforgiving and vindictive b!tch!)
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To: muawiyah

Your definition is wrong.

http://www.auburn.edu/~johnspm/gloss/entitlement_program

Social Security is completely unsustainable. Recipients receive much more than they paid in. It is a giant Ponzi scheme and needs to be terminated for the good of the country.


57 posted on 11/25/2012 5:57:58 PM PST by dinodino
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To: Mr. Blond
January 2014 is going to be greatly entertaining when everybody who thinks that Obamacare means free health care gets their fines from the IRS for not buying insurance.

They won't think about that until January 2015 when they go to do their 2014 taxes.

58 posted on 11/25/2012 6:02:16 PM PST by Cementjungle
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To: Cementjungle
If they don't fix the AMT and add a patch, it may hit them between Jan and 4/15.....

Talk to you tax pro(s) the ones I know are freaking....

59 posted on 11/25/2012 6:04:17 PM PST by taildragger (( Tighten the 5 point harness and brace for Impact Freepers, ya know it's coming..... ))
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To: taildragger

True... but the actual fine for not having insurance doesn’t start until the tax year 2014 as far as I know. Other taxes in the bill will of course affect many people in 2013.


60 posted on 11/25/2012 6:15:19 PM PST by Cementjungle
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To: dinodino
hmm ~ no, your definition is wrong. it's a forced loan made to the government ~ it pays no interest. if you die before you are eligible for payments, you lose it all.

Most of the analyses that argue that recipients receive much more than they paid usually ignore the employer's payments AND the fact that payments only go to those who live. They also fail to account for potential earnings should that money be invested in private equities!

I personally don't agree with the concept, but that's the way it was designed and that's what it does.

it's not an entitlement. You have to pay to qualify.

Many other government programs are deferred compensation ~ e.g. VA loans. I see them regularly identified as 'entitlements' ~ which is just total BS.

61 posted on 11/25/2012 6:20:07 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Mr. Blond
January 2014 is going to be greatly entertaining when everybody who thinks that Obamacare means free health care gets their fines from the IRS for not buying insurance.

Someone with a legal mind pointed out a while back that there are a number of exemptions from the healthcare fee based on income. In other words, low or no income families won't have to pay the fee, nor the penalty. Since those families are the Democrats main constituency, there will be no problem for the Dems there.
62 posted on 11/25/2012 6:20:42 PM PST by fr_freak
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To: muawiyah

You aren’t paying attention. Social Security is not a loan. Recipients receive far more than they paid in:

http://www.humanevents.com/2012/02/18/raiding-social-security/

SS is an entitlement program, and it’s bankrupt. Not sure why you are having difficulty understanding this.


63 posted on 11/25/2012 6:29:44 PM PST by dinodino
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To: muawiyah

You aren’t paying attention. Social Security is not a loan. Recipients receive far more than they paid in:

http://www.humanevents.com/2012/02/18/raiding-social-security/

Whose potential earnings are you referring to with your stock comment? Certainly not the government’s—the courts have ruled that there is no lockbox, and you are not entitled to the money you paid in.

SS is an entitlement program, and it’s bankrupt. Not sure why you are having difficulty understanding this.


64 posted on 11/25/2012 6:31:59 PM PST by dinodino
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To: dinodino
human events has published several dozen too many propaganda pieces over the years for me to think of them as a trusted source.

I simply don't have time to go through all their numbers ~ but you really have to do that because they'll pull stuff out of the air to persuade you they are correct in their judgment made before any analysis has taken place.

65 posted on 11/25/2012 6:33:27 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

Actually, this program is not authorized by the Constitution, so it should properly be left to the States, or not done at all.


66 posted on 11/25/2012 6:40:01 PM PST by dinodino
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To: dinodino
just to humor you ~ i went to the piece you pointed to and right there in the lead paragraph it says "on average, Social Security recipients receive more in benefits over their lifetimes than they and their employers contributed in taxes during their working years," ~ ON average starting with the recipients receiving benefits, and how much they and their employers contributed ~ but says nothing about the poor batardes who DIED, or paid too little to qualify ~ 39 quarters rather than 40 for example, or who paid and aren't eligible ~ e.g. Mexican illegals returning to Mexico to retire ~ that money is contributed, and paid to those who survive to get it, but they or their heirs receive none of it!

As i said about most such arguments, they start with a thesis and then carve the numbers (or initial conditions in this case) to fit the thesis ~ that is propaganda!

67 posted on 11/25/2012 6:40:04 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: dinodino

The USSC disagrees with you of course, but we should have disposed of the USSC long ago ~ it’s another failed government program, rather like the income tax!


68 posted on 11/25/2012 6:41:25 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: dinodino

Regarding the ‘loan’ aspects ~ 100% of everything you pay in FICA is put in a fund where it is then borrowed by the US government. Looking at it from the two tails ~ where it starts and where it ends, it is a forced loan to the government!


69 posted on 11/25/2012 6:43:24 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Libloather

“In Oakland, California, the 113th person murdered this year, happened this weekend. There were 9 shootings in three days. Again, blue state making getting a CCW, for a legally qualified person, virtually impossible. “

They either plan to ride the “free stuff” roller coaster to the bottom of the hill knowing full well that the end will come, or they are patiently stupid enough not to see what is absolutely going to happen. Either way, they will be like the Greeks when the well runs dry.


70 posted on 11/25/2012 6:44:17 PM PST by vette6387
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To: muawiyah

You do understand the phrase, “on average,” right? I guess math is not your strong point.

Maybe this will simplify it for you. For two years now we have spent more money on Social Security than we’ve taken in:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444138104578033282095368120.html

You don’t need to worry about averages to understand this. We paid out more in benefits than we collected in the same year. Get it now? It’s broken, bankrupt.


71 posted on 11/25/2012 6:46:12 PM PST by dinodino
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To: dinodino
Do you understand how people get tricked by sneaky propagandists. The piece said: "on average, Social Security recipients" ~ referring directly to recipients and then following with what they may have paid. That's simply not all the folks who pay, nor the payments made by employers for employees who never collected, nor for interest paid, or that should have been paid, on the money borrowed from Social Security for use in the General Fund.

If you start the equation by referring to those who pay FICA it's a different picture that doesn't make the same impact.

It's propaganda.

I'm not saying this to defend Social Security, but rather to point out to you that your reference was to an untrustworthy and dishonest source.

This should also show you how Karl Rove and his crowd in the GOP-e have slowly undermined Conservative institutions and voices.

72 posted on 11/25/2012 6:53:22 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: stevecmd

I believe you are correct.

Today I drove through Brighton NY. It’s a very well to do suburb of Rochester. It’s filled with some of the the upper wage earners of the area. I saw a law sign that said “Tax the 1%.”

Ron White is correct when he said that you can’t fix stupid.


73 posted on 11/25/2012 7:08:25 PM PST by Dutch Boy
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To: dinodino

Averages and total contribution are not accurate when dealing with regular contributions over a period of years. Look into how money works in an Annuity, and what that annuity is worth after 40 years of regular contributions. (Hint, the value FAR surpasses the sum of contributions).


74 posted on 11/25/2012 7:10:39 PM PST by wrench
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To: traditional1

To dem it is free because dey dont pay nuttin.


75 posted on 11/25/2012 7:30:11 PM PST by ully2
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To: dandiegirl

“Yep, if it’s Hill vs. Jeb I’m not voting”

Did you vote the last time - or do I get thank you for helping the dems to win 4 more years of Obama ?

I love these “protests” non-votes, which actually help the other side win.

If you were a soldier we’d call that a deserter wouldn’t we?


76 posted on 11/25/2012 7:44:37 PM PST by mike_9958
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To: muawiyah
Calling Social Security an "entitlement" is pesky and impolitic, but that's the basis behind the Supreme Court declaring it Constitutional. They decided it was a two-in-one program: a tax (Constitutional) and a "general welfare" program (now held to be Constitutional.)

This decision was reaffirmed in an interesting 1960 case: Flemming v. Nestor. Ephraim Nestor was booted out of the country because he was a Communist, and he sued for his Social Security benefits on the grounds that he paid the taxes. The Supreme Court ruled against him, deciding that Social Security payments are not a guaranteed annuity that can be treated as a property right.

It's an interesting case on its own. It gives Congress the explicit legal authority to deny Social Security payments to deported aliens. If you read it in a certain way, it says that Congress has the right to deny Social Security payments to subversives.

77 posted on 11/25/2012 7:48:22 PM PST by danielmryan
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To: plain talk

” - - - Even if the employer continues to offer insurance, the employee has to earn all the money that the employer uses to pay for it. - - - “

Great Economics 101 point.

Read more: http://medcitynews.com/2012/11/the-47-have-no-idea-how-much-healthcare-reform-will-cost-them/#ixzz2DITpnVvY


78 posted on 11/25/2012 7:53:29 PM PST by Graewoulf ((Traitor John Roberts' Obama"care" violates Sherman Anti-Trust Law, AND the U.S. Constitution.))
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To: taildragger
Told them they should all own a business first before they open their mouth!!! Then, told them if they keep asking for more crap, then their employer will close their doors and they will be out of a job, and they will have no one to blame but themselves!!! Also, mumbled under my breath as I walked off, “Geez, what's next?? You want your employer to pay your mortgage??? When does it end?” To which, their mother, my lib SIL shot me a dirty look.

It was so sad! My other SIL and I just shook our heads and agreed that they just DO NOT get it! They have NO concept of basic economics. After that, I ignored the whole lot and hung out with my other relatives of like mind.

79 posted on 11/25/2012 8:58:40 PM PST by Anti-Hillary (Soon everything in America will be "free", except it's people.)
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To: taildragger
For one I believe her. The EIC is a nightmare

Ah, the good ol' Earned Income Tax Credit! First proposed by Nixon, signed into law by Ford and increased under every administration since, without exception.

80 posted on 11/25/2012 9:44:49 PM PST by Graybeard58 (What G.O.P.e. candidate is in store for us in 2016?)
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To: muawiyah
Many other government programs are deferred compensation ~ e.g. VA loans. I see them regularly identified as 'entitlements' ~ which is just total BS.

As a vet, I put my life on the line for my country. My V.A. loan in 1972 was earned and cost the tax payers nothing as I repaid the loan ahead of schedule.

Furthermore anybody who thinks S.S. should fold immediately and not issue any more checks, should absolutely refuse to accept theirs when they become eligible, including the $255 Social Security pays for "burial expenses".

81 posted on 11/25/2012 9:51:55 PM PST by Graybeard58 (What G.O.P.e. candidate is in store for us in 2016?)
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To: muawiyah
My father paid in from when social security started until he died in 1974, never receiving a cent from s.s., my mother was ineligible to receive any survivors benefits because she earned too much money - she worked part time in a school lunchroom.

Oh yes, she did receive the $255 to bury my dad.

82 posted on 11/25/2012 9:56:14 PM PST by Graybeard58 (What G.O.P.e. candidate is in store for us in 2016?)
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To: Graybeard58

Even if the program is still around in 30 years, I have no intention of collecting a dime. I don’t want to have to explain to God why I thought it would be okay to accept blood-soaked money from thieves, gamblers, drunkards, Sodomites, fornicators, and murderers. My spirit is more precious to me than a measly decade of unprofitable loafing with stolen prosperity instead of working honestly with my two hands to earn my keep.


83 posted on 11/25/2012 11:15:59 PM PST by Anti-Utopian ("Come, let's away to prison; We two alone will sing like birds I' th' cage." -King Lear [V,iii,6-8])
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To: wrench

SS is not an annuity, nor is it an investment account. Benefit payments from the program now exceed total inputs, for two years running. You may think whatever you like about averages, propaganda, etc., but the fact remains that the program is insolvent.


84 posted on 11/26/2012 3:32:31 AM PST by dinodino
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To: dinodino

You may think whatever you like, but that doesn’t change how money and financial systems work. You may use a mayonnaise jar as your investment account, but the US government does not. You have been listening to the talking heads too long, go take some accounting courses and learn to think for yourself.


85 posted on 11/26/2012 6:05:45 AM PST by wrench
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To: wrench

I think you are the one who needs to read a bit more on the topic. Social Security recipients receive more in benefits than they paid in. Social Security is now in the red, and has been so for the past two years. Consensus is that the current situation is unsustainable and that, without reform, the bleeding will increase until the program is running at a 20% loss by 2030. That’s the most cheery estimate I found. What leads YOU to believe that Social Security is solvent?


86 posted on 11/26/2012 6:26:38 AM PST by dinodino
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To: Graybeard58

I’ll cheerfully opt out of Social Security! Let me keep my contributions and invest them myself, thanks.


87 posted on 11/26/2012 6:28:24 AM PST by dinodino
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To: Anti-Utopian

Well said. Too many around here are so emotionally invested in the concept of receiving Social Security that they can’t see that taking Social Security is no different than taking SNAP, EBT, EITC, Obamaphones, or any of the other myriad “freebies” from Uncle Sugar.


88 posted on 11/26/2012 6:34:29 AM PST by dinodino
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To: Libloather

Their liberal handlers will tell them that it’s the fault of “the rich” or “republicans” that they can’t get the healthcare they want, on demand, for free.

And they’ll believe it.


89 posted on 11/26/2012 6:39:36 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: PLMerite; CityCenter

It is my experience that sheeperals faithfully believe that 0bamacare means free healthcare on demand,

and any challenge to that belief is simply rejected.


90 posted on 11/26/2012 6:41:48 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: Libloather

They never will. Already healthcare costs gave gone up, just since the election. And the O voter I was talking to last night has noticed but his solution is more Obamacare faster.


91 posted on 11/26/2012 6:45:45 AM PST by hopespringseternal
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To: dinodino

What gets me is the acronym “TANF”.
“TEMPORARY Aid for Needy FAMILIES”

What it really is is GASM.
“Generational Aid for Single Mothers”


92 posted on 11/26/2012 6:50:24 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: MrB

“It is my experience that sheeperals faithfully believe that 0bamacare means free healthcare on demand, and any challenge to that belief is simply rejected.”

Yes, that jibes with a lot of what I’ve seen. And even if they vaguely understand the notion that nothing is “free,” they believe that “rich people” will be forced to pay for it from some bottomless “stash” that they’ve accumulated by robbing poor people.

I hope I live long enough to see this all crash down. I’ll point at them and laugh, even if they’re too stupid to know why.


93 posted on 11/26/2012 10:39:12 AM PST by PLMerite (Shut the Beyotch Down! Burn, baby, burn!)
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To: mike_9958
I absolutely voted for Romney and McCain before him. I read everything there was to read about BO before 2008 and have voted in every election since 1981. I am not interested in a party that allows elections to be stolen by fraud. I'm not interested (anymore) in the spineless gutless Republicans that somehow get put up as our candidate. My vote means nothing when fraud and thuggery wins everytime with our side being to scared to fight back. I may change my mind by 2016, but I won't be voting for Jeb if he is the candidate. He's from the biggest RINO family in the USA and the dems will run over him.
94 posted on 11/26/2012 8:10:28 PM PST by dandiegirl
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To: plain talk
An interesting number, that 47%. From a comment to a post on the "Dr. Wes" blog:

I just attended the Medicine X conference at Stanford this weekend where we learned of a 2012 Merrit Hawkings study showing that 47% of physicians under 40 would retire today if given the opportunity.

That's a catastrophic number.

http://drwes.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-growing-culture-of-hostile.html

Would it be fair to apply that 2nd 47% group to the first 47% group?

95 posted on 11/27/2012 1:02:23 AM PST by Paul R. (We are in a break in an Ice Age. A brief break at that...)
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To: muawiyah

I’ll tell you what, whenever I hear politicians talk about reforming SS in some fashion or another, and say how oh people over 55 or whatever nothing will change I just want to scream. I’m 53, a month away from 54. Those *#!ers took a big chunk of my paycheck my entire working life and they better give me my damn money back.


96 posted on 11/27/2012 4:28:35 AM PST by visualops (artlife.us)
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To: Graybeard58

I actually did turn down the burial benefit when I lost my first wife to cancer. When I saw that I would have to wait in line for hours to apply for it I realized that I couldn’t afford to take it because at that time I still had a business going and could earn more than $255. in the time I would have spent applying for it.


97 posted on 11/27/2012 5:36:49 AM PST by RipSawyer
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To: visualops
You hear it right here ~ people who think it's OK to take someone's money and leave 'em in the gutter ~ without getting shot.

Frankly I think they are wrong ~ theft is wrong ~ turning your back on a well armed man you've just stolen things from ~ well, that's wrong too. AND STUPID.

So, they're going to try to walk off with the money, and it's not a small sum either ~ there's $6 trillion there, and with proper accounting probably even more. Ron Paul wanted the Federal Reserve audited ~ but what about Social Security?

98 posted on 11/27/2012 5:52:18 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: montomike

How many think that Michelle will also try to run?

At least she isn’t as OLD as Hillary.


99 posted on 11/27/2012 9:14:52 AM PST by ridesthemiles
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To: taildragger

They are staffing up for the the testing that will occur next year for tax professionals to aquire a new federal license and Earned Income Credit checking / enforcement.”””

Are you saying that the tax PREPARER is going to be responsible for the accuracy of the person’s information? This is nuts. They are accountants—not Law enforcement officers and they have no such authority to be cleaning out the EIC cheats.

How about those ‘Mall tax preparers’ who pop up for 4 months every year? There is no way you can even hire enough people to do such returns with that sword hanging over their head.

IF accountants refuse to prepare returns with EIC involvement, then the public is left to do it themselves and they cannot do that. They have not been taught basic math, much less tax return data.


100 posted on 11/27/2012 9:33:56 AM PST by ridesthemiles
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