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Skills Donít Pay the Bills
The New York Times ^ | 11/20/2012 | Adam Davidson

Posted on 11/26/2012 9:40:40 AM PST by ksen

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To: ksen

I don’t agree. And the snarkiness was uncalled for.

Your wage is a cost, one of many, that must come out of the sale of the good or service. I sell HVAC services. I can’t pay employees more than what I can sell them for on the open market, minus their other associated costs. The market for their services is what sets their wage. Employees don’t understand this, but that’s how it is. Wages go up when your services help the company make more money; not because you have worked another year, have worked hard, or whatever other inane reason people come up with.


51 posted on 11/26/2012 1:44:49 PM PST by Red Boots
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To: stuartcr
Isn’t education essentially the same as OJT or shop classes?

Not if a person does't get hands on training. We used to get troops back from AIT maintenance training and they had no clue how to remove / repack and reinstall something as simple as a wheel bearing. BUT, they got to read in out of the manuals.

52 posted on 11/26/2012 1:48:01 PM PST by Arrowhead1952 (0 bummer inherited a worse economy in 2012 than he did in 2008.)
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To: William Tell

Excessive OT has been shown to negatively impact productivity and worker health so while OT may help a bottom line over the short term excessive reliance on it will only hurt a company in the long run.

That won’t stop them though.


53 posted on 11/26/2012 2:17:59 PM PST by ksen
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To: ksen

I’m not sure why you think union-bashers are responsible for employers having some “upper hand”.

Union bashing only works if workers agree that the unions suck. And that is a problem caused by the unions looking out for their own existance, and spending all their money on political conquests, rather than working to actually help workers.

Meanwhile, workers are much more hurt by all the things that happen because unions get democrats elected.

I work three jobs, none of them union. One is my full-time employment, I am paid what I am worth, few people could step in and do what I do, both because I am very good at it with years of experience, and because I’m intimately familiar with the products we produce, and spend time and effort keeping it that way.

But if they could hire some out-of-work college dropout to do my job, that is exactly what the company should do. Companies are not welfare states. Of course, the consumer wins if the products are cheaper, except if the consumer loses their job because of cheap labor, they can’t afford the cheaper products.

My second job is a $10-an-hour part-time job I have one month a year, as a haunt monster at a theme park. They can’t fill all the positions at that price, but my guess is they don’t think the problem with hiring is the salary. It is a weird job, and physically demanding. In california, applicants line up ahead of time for the chance at getting auditions for this kind of job, but here in the east, even with unemployment high among young people, it just isn’t the job people are clamoring for.

For me that’s just a really fun job, and I can afford the time for one month a year.

My 3rd job is a freelance writer, and I get paid peanuts, more or less depending on how long it takes me to write 750 words. I’m losing that job because the paper is going out of business. But I am not aware that anybody was clamoring to take my job.


54 posted on 11/26/2012 2:20:35 PM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: Mr. Jeeves

That differential also takes into account the costs that the contractor takes on. Add all the costs normally covered by a proper employer and you make up for those gains.

To suggest that job security is a non sensical concept (and that one should blindly accept indirect work) is to bring the worst of Europe’s hiring practices to the United States. That is, temporary employment promotes a harmful detachment from work.

All of that said, hiring is a business decision - nothing more.


55 posted on 11/26/2012 2:23:55 PM PST by setha
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To: William Tell

Excessive OT has been shown to negatively impact productivity and worker health so while OT may help a bottom line over the short term excessive reliance on it will only hurt a company in the long run.

That won’t stop them though.


56 posted on 11/26/2012 2:25:21 PM PST by ksen
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To: ksen

This is what my son has found. A level II CNC operator is going for $13 and hour in our area. Considering what it takes to learn that machine, that’s insane.


57 posted on 11/26/2012 2:28:15 PM PST by Marie ("The last time Democrats gloated this hard after a health care victory, they lost 60 House seats.")
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To: Resolute Conservative
Hard to pay those higher wages when other countries pay 1/4 that much, if that much, to workers and sell their cheap crap here. An unrestricted global market if all start at the same place, too bad we started light years ahead in living standards and technology and have to go backwards to let everyone catch up.

The fine print in our so-called 'Free Trade' agreements is that harmonization of living standards means that all those who work for a living will drop down to third world squalor. Our wealth will be redistributed to global corporate and finance.
58 posted on 11/26/2012 2:32:59 PM PST by khelus
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To: Red Boots
I don’t agree. And the snarkiness was uncalled for.

You're right and I apologize

Your wage is a cost, one of many, that must come out of the sale of the good or service. I sell HVAC services. I can’t pay employees more than what I can sell them for on the open market, minus their other associated costs. The market for their services is what sets their wage. Employees don’t understand this, but that’s how it is. Wages go up when your services help the company make more money; not because you have worked another year, have worked hard, or whatever other inane reason people come up with.

What you say doesn't really make any sense. Because if a cost other than labor goes up, say copper tubing, you adjust the price of your product to account for the increased copper costs. If you labor expenses have to go up in order to acquire and retain quality employees than the price of your product needs to likewise go up. There is not some magical HVAC equipment price that customers won't go over.

59 posted on 11/26/2012 2:40:10 PM PST by ksen
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To: CharlesWayneCT
I’m not sure why you think union-bashers are responsible for employers having some “upper hand”.

I think it because that's what's been happening. Since the time unions started losing membership and power, the 1970s, the gap between wages and productivity has been steadily increasing whereas before wages and productivity moved pretty much in tandem. I'm not naive enough to think that's the only reason for the widening wage/productivity gap but I do believe it is a major one. After all when employers can keep workers disorganized it is much easier for them to keep wages artificially low along with not implementing other workplace enhancing items.

Union bashing only works if workers agree that the unions suck. And that is a problem caused by the unions looking out for their own existance, and spending all their money on political conquests, rather than working to actually help workers.

Meanwhile, workers are much more hurt by all the things that happen because unions get democrats elected.

Well, I won't argue that the Democrats have been great for workers, but they are a whole lot better towards workers than the current Republican party.

But if they could hire some out-of-work college dropout to do my job, that is exactly what the company should do. Companies are not welfare states. Of course, the consumer wins if the products are cheaper, except if the consumer loses their job because of cheap labor, they can’t afford the cheaper products.

Companies have by and large forgotten Henry Ford's old maxim. We are a consumer driven economy and the more companies withhold wage increases for their employees, i.e. consumers, than consumers will have less disposable income to spend on the company's products thus making management think that wages have to be slashed even more.

Do you want to see the economy recover quickly? Make companies put some of the trillions in cash they are hoarding into circulation.

My second job is a $10-an-hour part-time job I have one month a year, as a haunt monster at a theme park. They can’t fill all the positions at that price, but my guess is they don’t think the problem with hiring is the salary. It is a weird job, and physically demanding. In california, applicants line up ahead of time for the chance at getting auditions for this kind of job, but here in the east, even with unemployment high among young people, it just isn’t the job people are clamoring for.

If the company offered $100/hr do you think they'd have trouble filling the positions? If they wouldn't have trouble filling positions at $100/hr then their hiring problem is a wage issue and the equilibrium wage for that position lies somewhere between $10/hr and $100/hr.

60 posted on 11/26/2012 2:52:42 PM PST by ksen
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To: Brookhaven

Well, I suppose you’re right. I shouldn’t have been so gracious about their abilities.

I agree with you, they ain’t that curious but, with equipment being used more as an Xbox or PS3 and all they are basically looking for an end result, much like running a cash register.

The are inputting or scanning to get to a result and it just isn’t high skill labor and the wage reflects that.


61 posted on 11/26/2012 3:01:05 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: ksen

If they offered $100 an hour, they’d go broke, and nobody would have a job. The math is easy enough. They open the park, people pay a certain amount to come in, they can pay the workers something less than that amount.

You didn’t explain why you think that it is “union-bashing” the hurt the unions, rather than the unions screwing up that LED to union-bashing. My argument is that unions lost their way, and became less useful to workers, and that’s why they lost members.

We bash unions because they aren’t really helping their people, and instead are using their political influence to take away the freedom of workers to CHOOSE to represent themselves. They fight to stop right-to-work states, and to collect union dues from people taking care of their parents in their homes.


62 posted on 11/26/2012 4:21:18 PM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: Nepeta

They did not work for “no pay”. They may not have received pay for an hourly hourly rate but they didn’t work for nothing either. They got something in return. Maybe they kept their job, or lined themselves up for promotion, or maybe they just got to suck up to the boss.


63 posted on 11/26/2012 4:33:56 PM PST by FreedomNotSafety
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To: Osage Orange

I do not think the Dems have the answer either because they do not believe in fiscal responsibility. GOP on the other hand trust businessmen too much. It is ironic that the free market types do recognize self interest or greed plays a role in driving a person’s behavior, but have a lax attitude toward the consequences of greed unchecked. Psych have evaluated the behavior pattern of CEO’s and execs and find about 20 percent exhibit sociopath traits. Add the ability to invent deals and investment vehicles no one understands, access to other people’s money and a gov that is clueless and you have the recipe for grand fraud. What happen with liar loans and the selling of mortgage portfolios riddled with liar loans as AAA investments while the firm selling the notes were betting against it thru hedge funds should raise big red flags on unlimited trust of businessmen.
The CEO of Crazy Eddy Electronics was interviewed and asked why he cooked the inventory figures and books to commit stock fraud. His answer was no one was looking and the money was there. I agree with conservatives that we do not need more rules, but we need to enforce the rules. Gov has a role in the market, it needs to monitor business activity and the activity of businessmen to make sure they do not cheat the consumer nor corrupt the gov officials. Fail to follow these principles, the financial meltdown of 2008 will be repeated again like scandals of the past 40 years.
I know the argument that the gov was solely responsible for causing the financial meltdown in 2008. CRA did force banks to overlook certain criteria for minorities to get loans. At least these mortgage notes were flagged as subprime. Liar loans had no flag and were rated AAA fraudulently. Since the gov created a loophole for criteria and were willing to buy the notes after six months without checking the info on the application (to insure proper AAA rating) does that mean the banker can take advantage of the stupid loophole that can destroy the financial system of the world and US? Or do conservatives believe that short term profit is allowable because it is legal and the businessman is not responsible for the long term effects of his behavior even if it means the destruction of the US? That is what some freepers are inadvertently defending. Our founding fathers warned us that in order for our republic to be successful it will need moral and virtuous men. Business community has not projected such image.
At this point some freepers are pissed, let me remind them who hired the illegals and paid them under the table. It wasn’t the Dems it was businessmen. Who sold more accurate guidance systems to the PLA and lobbied Clinton to overrule the DoD. Could it not have been, oh oh it is coming back, it was a CEO of Loral (businessman)!!!!


64 posted on 11/26/2012 5:52:21 PM PST by Fee
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To: FreedomNotSafety
They did not work for “no pay”. They may not have received pay for an hourly hourly rate but they didn’t work for nothing either. They got something in return. Maybe they kept their job, or lined themselves up for promotion, or maybe they just got to suck up to the boss.

I was there. You were not. It was illegal, and had anyone been injured, there would have been insurance problems. At that time, NONE of these people had any possibility of promotion; that was company policy.

Pay was lousy--at this time, fewer than 50% accepted P&G's offers for lab technicians, and armies of temps kept things afloat. I knew couples with families who both worked as technicians, and who both had second jobs to keep food on the table. Nobody BOUGHT P&G brands because they couldn't afford them!

P&G rode their technical employees into the ground, then brought in fresh hires when the 2% raises every 24 months (no cost of living increases)thinned the ranks.

You had to leave to make decent money. Several people quit and went to medical school.
65 posted on 11/27/2012 4:04:06 AM PST by Nepeta
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To: raybbr

>>Why a cap?<<

All hourly positions are capped.

>>Is OT a condition on hiring?<<

It’s mandatory, and applicants are informed of such.

>>If so, why? Can’t you manage the dept on straight time workers?<<

We’re a Tier 1 supplier and business is booming in the auto industry. If our customers are working, so are we.


66 posted on 11/27/2012 4:50:33 AM PST by ItsOurTimeNow ("This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no foolin' around.")
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To: ex91B10

>>Drug screening at random?<<

Yes.

>>Required to report arrest (for any reason) to the employer?<<

Nope, only convictions.

>>Deny employment because of a five or ten year old criminal act (OUI or drugs)?<<

All on a case by case basis - depends on the severity of the conviction and how long ago it was.

>>Want Facebook/social networking passwords?<<

lol...no. What an employee does on their own time is their business.


67 posted on 11/27/2012 4:58:35 AM PST by ItsOurTimeNow ("This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no foolin' around.")
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To: Nepeta

I wasn’t there but I am not buying the “insurance problems” line. What a crock. Every insurance policy that P&G had in place was still in place when those employees where working. If they got hurt they would still get worker’s comp and I am sure they still had their company paid health insurance. The company’s liability policies were still in full force.

Wow it was so hard that some of them had to go to med school and some of them had to find other jobs. Oh the horror of it all, people making decisions based on their self interest. Some employees decided to work off the clock and some decide to quit. Some thought it was a great paying job and others left for more money.

Sounds like you are happy with alot of rules and hall monitors.


68 posted on 11/27/2012 12:32:55 PM PST by FreedomNotSafety
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To: FreedomNotSafety
I wasn’t there but I am not buying the “insurance problems” line. What a crock. Every insurance policy that P&G had in place was still in place when those employees where working. If they got hurt they would still get worker’s comp and I am sure they still had their company paid health insurance. The company’s liability policies were still in full force.

Again, I was there and YOU WERE NOT. This was not a universal company practice; there was in fact a stink raised when the practice was uncovered, and the managers lied about what was happening, denying that anyone was working outside of regular hours. The insurance issue was very real.

Wow it was so hard that some of them had to go to med school and some of them had to find other jobs. Oh the horror of it all, people making decisions based on their self interest. Some employees decided to work off the clock and some decide to quit. Some thought it was a great paying job and others left for more money.

Nobody thought it was a great paying job. My point was that they underpaid some good people, and lost a lot of talent out the door, some of it to competitors. It's a stupid way to run a business.

Sounds like you are happy with alot of rules and hall monitors.

Sounds like you are projecting.

As a matter of fact, I attended a PUBLIC high school that had no hall monitors, no hall passes, oil paintings on the walls, large sculptures and nothing was defaced. I don't need a tight leash to behave, and I prefer working with people who don't need one, either.
69 posted on 11/28/2012 3:27:16 PM PST by Nepeta
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To: FreedomNotSafety
I wasn’t there but I am not buying the “insurance problems” line. What a crock. Every insurance policy that P&G had in place was still in place when those employees where working. If they got hurt they would still get worker’s comp and I am sure they still had their company paid health insurance. The company’s liability policies were still in full force.

Again, I was there and YOU WERE NOT. This was not a universal company practice; there was in fact a stink raised when the practice was uncovered, and the managers lied about what was happening, denying that anyone was working outside of regular hours. The insurance issue was very real.

Wow it was so hard that some of them had to go to med school and some of them had to find other jobs. Oh the horror of it all, people making decisions based on their self interest. Some employees decided to work off the clock and some decide to quit. Some thought it was a great paying job and others left for more money.

Nobody thought it was a great paying job. My point was that they underpaid some good people, and lost a lot of talent out the door, some of it to competitors. It's a stupid way to run a business.

Sounds like you are happy with alot of rules and hall monitors.

Sounds like you are projecting.

As a matter of fact, I attended a PUBLIC high school that had no hall monitors, no hall passes, oil paintings on the walls, large sculptures and nothing was defaced. I don't need a tight leash to behave, and I prefer working with people who don't need one, either.
70 posted on 11/28/2012 3:28:14 PM PST by Nepeta
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