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More Democrats Willing to Go Over 'Fiscal Cliff'
newsmax ^ | 11/27/12 | j feller

Posted on 11/27/2012 8:10:26 AM PST by bestintxas

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To: Gilbo_3
enjoy the ride, and the kabuki for what it is today, strictly entertainment for those who think they *won*....

Are you claiming that we didnt win ?? .

HA-HA

141 posted on 11/30/2012 8:24:02 AM PST by sickoflibs (Has Bohner caved to Obama again yet?)
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To: bestintxas
Let 'em go, let 'em own it.


142 posted on 11/30/2012 8:30:22 AM PST by SparkyBass
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To: Gilbo_3
I know this is long, but I want to address the points you made.  I think they're reasoned and deserve acknowledgement and a response on point.  Where I do have a problem with some of them, I want to explain what my thoughts are.

I know folks are very opposed to nation building. I know folks are very opposed to inverventionist adventures. I'm not real enthused with either of them myself. What I find myself contemplating though, is what reaction folks wanted us to come up with after 09/11/2001.


firstly, weve squandered $$$ TRILLIONS $$$ across the board, and each small stream of pissed away dollars has accounted for it...  I agree here.

the *cost* of the war effort is a big chunk, but not the whole obviously...but it couldve/shouldve been minimized by going ballz to the wall WAR effort...same as the *cost* of our personnel and equipment... 

What you say here sounds good to a military hawk such as I consider myself to be.  There are still implications that I wrestle with.

How do you go full on in an area with a population base that may not agree with you on many things, but whose majority populace wasn't directly involved with acts of terrorism?  One of the things I liked about the war in Iraq, was that it drew terrorists in like moths to summer evening lights.  We were able to take many of them out.  That was a very good thing.

By putting in some infrastructure, we also helped individual communities.  We made sure these communities had servies they hadn't had in years.  Schools, electrical, water... we improved their lot.  I know these are costs you're concerned about.  I think that's a rational concern.  I also think it's rational to produce things for the Iraqi populace that better their lives.  It leaves a lasting impression that we weren't there solely to kill Iraqis indescriminantly, because we hated every Iraqi.

We gave Iraqi women and children a somewhat better lot in life.  Girls could go to school.  Women were part of the government for the first time.  I'm not sure how that plays out in the long run, but it would seem that if my mother had been able to go to school because of a foriegn power's intervention, I would know of it and be somewhat appreciative.  If I had a well lit home for the first time in years, I would know who provided it and be appreciative.  Same with water.

we fight, and plan to fight these days with a mindset of minimizing our casualties, instead of a mindset of simply maximizing the enemies casualties...including his infrastructures and supporting national populations ...

Okay.  On the surface that sounds rational.  When it comes to implementation, how do you do that?  Some terrorists were coming out of communities.  Every community has it's fruits and nuts.  Do we simply level every city that has a fruit or nut appear?  Prior to a city being known as a place there a few terrorists emerged from, what do we do?  Do we level the place because all Muslims are bad?  Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to dismiss your comments as absurd.  I just don't know how you practically administer what you say your policies are.  As stated, I more or less agree with your comments, but I don't know how to implement in practical terms that don't make you come off looking worse than the terrorists.

If we're talking about a terrorist training camp, man have at it.  Level the place.  If we're talking about a population center, it's a lot tougher to do that sort of thing.   


we do have much of the best equipment in the world...and the baseline pricetag of *the best* is always higher, but we also have a porkulus political mentality that adds and skims a large percentage above that cost, which does nothing for the troop manning said equipment...

I think you're on solid ground there with all your comments.  I'm not here to defend porkulus or wasteful programs.  What's more, I view people involved in those sorts of things to be stealing funds that should be going directly to make our troops more effective, safer, and more comfortable on assignment.  If people are burning off funds on idiotic projects, are taping the government till for personal profit, or are simply trying to take advantage of a temporary opportunity unreasonably, it would bother me a lot.

Like you, I suspect there is plenty of this going on.  That may or may not be a valid opinion.  To what exent this exists, I'm simply not qualified or knowledgable enough to say.  I do support efforts to root it out and end it.   


YES, our troos deserve the *best*...if/when we can afford it...but reality says that weve spent a lot more than necessary to try to insure survival of individuals on the battlefield,...

I'm not sure what you're referencing here.  Perhaps you could provide one or more examples.  At first blush I'm tempted to disagree, but you may have some valid examples in mind.  I'd like to hear them.

...rather than to ensure they kill the enemy or at least his desire to fight...

Sounds like a good goal you're trying to push towards.  Then you realize that what we're confronting is a regional desire to be a kamakazee for Allah.  Is there in fact a way to kill this desire short of leveling towns?   I honestly don't know.   I'm not even convinced leveling towns gets us anywhere.

and if we were crushing the enemy, withOUT paying the materials and labor to rebuild his country, before weve even pacified it, we would save several buck as well...  I do agree we need to manage these efforts properly.

like i said, its a percentage of our crushing and unpayable debt...the social spending had to have been nipped in the 40s, or an attempt made in the 60s...or even token resistance in the 80-90s...
we barely even get lip service about it, and havent for a near 2 decades...
the fatal wounds were delivered many years ago, its jusst now that we are admitting that we are in fact, a dead Republic walking...

I don't disagree with this.  I am hopeful that we can turn things around, but I'm not kidding myself about how likely/unlikely that is.

enjoy the ride, and the kabuki for what it is today, strictly entertainment for those who think they *won*...

I think that goes for folks who overly support the military and overly support the Leftist ideology as well.  I do think there is a third category, so I'm not lumping you in with anyone unfairly.  Nobody is truly winning here, because ulitmately it all leads to our destruction.  We need people to be rational in both directions, and it's just not happening.

The polarization by the Left is essentially destroying this nation.  While I do see some problems on the right, I don't believe they come anywhere near to destroying our nation as the Left's goals do.


Now, that being said, I believe our Leftists have severely harmed our nation with Socialist implementations.  That includes people traditionally thought of to be Republicans too.  In addition I believe our trade with China and our open border policies have just about doomed us.  I do think there is a valid argument to be made about which ideology truly supports these things.  I honestly think that folks who support these things are Leftists, even if they have always considered themselves to be right leaning.  That's a discussion for another time.


 


143 posted on 11/30/2012 9:53:46 AM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and over 60 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: stephenjohnbanker
I disagree on one point, Romney articulated conservatism far more than I thought he would. He spoke of economic growth, fiscal responsibility, the work ethic, never let up on being pro-life (granted, it wasn't an issue he pushed), and constantly spoke of the need for a strong military. He stood by the Reagan three legged stool fairly well, never backed off from it and quite frankly surprised me.

I fully agree about his not attacking Bambi, he and the so called conservative PACs should have bombarded the airwaves with true negatives about him and his administration, that was a huge mistake. It was a Bush like mistake, a GOP mistake that was horrible, and would have likely helped him had he done so.

I still don't think it would have brought him over the top, what I mentioned in my first post, point by point lost the election. America has been changed, it's been successfully subverted from the inside, the new majority no longer has the beliefs like they once had during the Reagan years. They're gone. The new demographic majority is here, the radically leftist leaning media, the universities, and Hollywood hold the aces, we need a different long term (and short term) strategy in order to win this undeclared war.

144 posted on 11/30/2012 10:59:37 AM PST by Lakeshark (!)
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To: Lakeshark

” I fully agree about his not attacking Bambi, he and the so called conservative PACs should have bombarded the airwaves with true negatives about him and his administration, that was a huge mistake. It was a Bush like mistake, a GOP mistake that was horrible, and would have likely helped him had he done so.”

We only appear to disagree on the outcome. We lost by very little, and a REAL exposure of Obama, I believe, would have put Romney in office.

” The new demographic majority is here, the radically leftist leaning media, the universities, and Hollywood hold the aces, we need a different long term (and short term) strategy in order to win this undeclared war. “

Well, since Obama took office in 2009, the Republicans in the House & Senate have been in HIDING. If you don’t fight back hard against leftists, you lose, because to a leftist, politics is their religion.


145 posted on 11/30/2012 11:33:52 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker
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To: DoughtyOne; sickoflibs; All

” In addition I believe our trade with China and our open border policies have just about doomed us. I do think there is a valid argument to be made about which ideology truly supports these things. I honestly think that folks who support these things are Leftists, even if they have always considered themselves to be right leaning. “

Illegal immigration?

Democrats = permanent voting majority

Republicans = Greed for cheap labor. The lobby is very strong for this.

This ALONE will doom our country. A HUGE underclass that pays no taxes, and collects welfare and EITC. My 30 years in California convinced me that unchecked illegal immigration will hit the whole country. 20 years ago, it was just out west. Now the south, and almost everywhere else has many illegals.


146 posted on 11/30/2012 12:01:59 PM PST by stephenjohnbanker
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To: stephenjohnbanker

I agree. I’ve been trying to tell folks the same thing, and now even though the illegal problem is in their own neighborhoods, folks still don’t grasp that our nation is being occupied by the citizens of another nation.

Forget the devastating economic impact, do they really want to surrender our nation? Seemingly..., yes.


147 posted on 11/30/2012 12:31:47 PM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and over 60 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: DoughtyOne

” do they really want to surrender our nation? Seemingly..., yes.”

And these illegals are taught not to assimulate.
And they DON’T


148 posted on 11/30/2012 12:38:23 PM PST by stephenjohnbanker
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To: stephenjohnbanker

I agree.

They don’t know our history. They don’t even know their own.

They just bumble along thinking somebody owes them.


149 posted on 11/30/2012 1:14:53 PM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and over 60 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: DonaldC

“Where would they go?”

How about “anywhere where population growth rate exceeds the governments’ ability to wrap their tentacles around the people?”


150 posted on 11/30/2012 2:24:35 PM PST by mo (If you understand, no explanation is needed. If you don't understand, no explanation is possible.)
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To: DoughtyOne; sickoflibs
i dont have time to address yer post point by point, but suffice it to say that i think that we accomplish little in an enemy country, esp a muzz or other suicidal population, by fighting 'nice'...every since korea, weve fought the nice fight, and bent over backwards to spare lives of our enemies.

weve also spent a lot of treasure, and lost opportunities trying to protect our own from injury/death, often at tactical/strategic expebse...

blackhawk down' and benghazi showed the courage and sacrifice that our warriors posses to git-r-done...

so sure, give em the equipment we can afford, but also unleash em for total war...make our enemies fear us, screw them likin us...at least until they are broken and submissive...hell we didnt even have the willingness to 100% destroy/kill the actual republican guard in the first gulf invasion...

germans and japs are friendly today, and we burned their countries to the ground...f@@k allahbabba and the vamel he humped in on...you wanna smoke em out ??? use FIRE...!!!

151 posted on 11/30/2012 3:14:24 PM PST by Gilbo_3 (Gov is not reason; not eloquent; its force.Like fire,a dangerous servant & master. George Washington)
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To: Gilbo_3

You make some good points there. I’m not advocating we give the enemy comfort, as it relates to targets we can identify.

For instance, in Vietnam I think we should have warned the North that unless all hostilities ceased and they returned north of the demilitarized zone by x date, Hanoi would cease to exist. I wouldn’t even have even warned the North that it’s Hanoi government buildings were about to evaporate. And the chance that harbor could have been used again for months after our stikes, I would have pulverized that place so thoroughly, the harbor would have crept inland by a half mile or so.

As for our own Congress, I’d have been tempted to do the same things to it.

Afterward I’d say, this is the war you wanted boys. Welcome. It’s on. Now either surrender or watch your cities go up one by one.

We’re not going to coddle you any longer.

With the government gone in Iraq, it’s not quite as easy to identify the enemy. When we can, I don’t think we should be bashful about erasing homes where the enemy attacked us from.

In the Black Hawk situation, I would have been plenty happy to level the quarter mile in each direction around our men there. You draw the fire, you get the fire. Don’t F with us.

I believe that if we discussed this, you and I would come to a pretty reasoned agreement on what we want, and what we’re willing to accept to achieve it.

I can be a ruthless bastard when I need to be. I will never agree to put our men in harms way, then not do my best to let them defend themselves, or provide any assistance they need in addition to that.

This unloaded gun crap, someone in command at some level should be brought up on charges when that stuff surfaces.


152 posted on 11/30/2012 5:36:24 PM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and over 60 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: Gilbo_3
i dont have time to address yer post point by point
.

What?? Then I win, NA-NA-NA!
.

HA-HA :)

153 posted on 12/01/2012 12:50:50 AM PST by sickoflibs (Dems want to win.The GOP wants to whine. Why dont they fight to win like Dems do?)
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To: stephenjohnbanker
This is a difficult problem, the center of it is demographic with the ever increasing populations of democrat constituents (yes, I know, that's wacis.....:-), and it's hugely difficult when the media/Hollywood/academic complex shapes the culture.

When is the last time California elected a conservative? Do you think Reagan would have a chance there at this point? I don't think it's possible.

The point I'm trying to make is that the majority of states, and the majority of Americans are trending the same way as California. Without new and effective strategies of changing the media/Hollywood/academic complex, without new and effective strategies of persuading the new demographic majorities (wacis), the dems win.

With this election lost, Bambicare will never be overturned, the unions will be more powerful than ever, spending will never be cut, free stuff will always win, and it will always be the fault of the GOP.

Okay, okay.......I'm stopping, I'm depressing myself.....

:-)

154 posted on 12/01/2012 8:44:20 AM PST by Lakeshark (!)
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To: DonaldC
Where would they go?

Canada, Costa Rica, Poland, Lots of places are economically blowing our doors off.

155 posted on 12/01/2012 8:47:44 AM PST by ROCKLOBSTER (Celebrate "Republicans Freed the Slaves" Month)
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To: stephenjohnbanker
Oh, I forgot.

They want (and will likely get) your retirement funds.......

I thought you need to be depressed this weekend too......

:-)

156 posted on 12/01/2012 8:47:58 AM PST by Lakeshark (!)
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To: stephenjohnbanker
Do you have any evindence of brains ?
157 posted on 12/01/2012 8:58:57 AM PST by ROCKLOBSTER (Celebrate "Republicans Freed the Slaves" Month)
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To: dan on the right
Just read today, 360,000 votes in 4 key states would have had it go the other way.

You don't suppose the RAT cities of NYC, Filthydelphia, Cleveland etc could have cranked out a million fraudulent votes do you?

158 posted on 12/01/2012 9:14:14 AM PST by ROCKLOBSTER (Celebrate "Republicans Freed the Slaves" Month)
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To: stephenjohnbanker; DoughtyOne; Gilbo_3; sickoflibs

How to freak out the RATs:

Massively cut military spending by DECERTIFYING THE WEAPONS CONTRACTOR UNIONS!

Then I would have absolutely no problem with Republican “pork”. None whatsoever.


159 posted on 12/01/2012 9:30:59 AM PST by ROCKLOBSTER (Celebrate "Republicans Freed the Slaves" Month)
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