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Can you opt out of Obamacare?
Citizens Council for Health Freedom ^ | 11-27-12 | twila brase

Posted on 11/28/2012 12:30:52 PM PST by TurboZamboni

Two weeks ago, I pointed out Section 1555, one of the major chinks in PPACA's armor according to an attorney at the Goldwater Institute. Section 1555 is in the law under "Subtitle G - Miscellaneous Provisions." Since bringing this up, I've heard from some who believe that this section is limited solely to those who sell ("issue") health insurance.

Here again is Section 1555: "No individual, company, business, nonprofit entity, or health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insurance coverage shall be required to participate in any Federal health insurance program created under this Act (or any amendments made by this Act), or in any Federal health insurance program expanded by this Act (or any such amendment), and there shall be no penalty or fine imposed upon any such issuer for choosing not to participate in such programs."

I've contacted Goldwater Institute's attorney, Nick Dranius, and other attorneys for more information and opinions. I've also transcribed Mr. Dranius's webinar comments so you can read them for yourself. See "News to Know" below.

(Excerpt) Read more at healthenews.cchfreedom.org ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 1555; compliance; comply; fine; obamacare; option; optout; ppaca; scc; sheeple; waiver; waivers
Here is a summary of what I've heard so far: 1) Because of the rush to passage, no Congressional history exists that would describe the meaning or explain the purpose of this section, thus no one is sure why it's in the law, who put it there, or what it means.

2) The language is ambiguous. There are two possible interpretations of the language:

Interpretation #1: The placement of the comma before the word "or" means that the words preceding it ("individual, company, business, nonprofit entity") are not modified by the words,"issuer offering group or individual health insurance coverage."

Interpretation #2: If you disregard the placement of the comma, or otherwise disagree with the above interpretation, the entire opt-out section applies only to entities "offering group or individual health insurance coverage" -- including individuals, companies, etc.

3) Final interpretation may be left to judges if Section 1555 is used in a legal challenge.

4) Given all the mandates in the rest of the law (the totality of the law), some judges may dismiss this section, but others may not.

5) For states with health care freedom acts that challenge Obamacare in court, Section 1555's ambiguity may have to be considered and a legal interpretation made. But regardless of the interpretation of this section, the fact remains that states, employers and individuals can opt-out of compliance -- and in some cases may even be able to avoid the penalties for doing so (read Michael Cannon in Quotes below).

Individuals and employers still have power. As Justice Roberts ruled, no one can be forced to buy insurance. Likewise, no one has to sell insurance and no one is required to provide insurance. There are penalties for refusing to buy or provide insurance, but they are significantly less than the cost of buying or providing insurance. As the price of insurance skyrockets under Obamacare, expect more and more individuals and businesses to choose penalties rather than insurance.

1 posted on 11/28/2012 12:30:59 PM PST by TurboZamboni
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To: TurboZamboni

It sounds like any business that offers health insurance to employees does not need to comply. Especially businesses that sell health insurance, such as insurers and brokers. Is that what you are saying?


2 posted on 11/28/2012 12:43:46 PM PST by NEMDF
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To: NEMDF

...if you can sell it to the judge. sure.

I predict opting out will be as common and easy as making a union comply with the Beck decision and giving back the part of your dues back they use for electing rats.


3 posted on 11/28/2012 12:46:59 PM PST by TurboZamboni (Looting the future to bribe the present)
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To: TurboZamboni
Can you opt out of Obamacare?

According to this judge of the US District Court for the Western District of Oklahoma, the answer is NO. Judge: Obama Admin Can Force Hobby Lobby to Obey HHS Mandate

I hope Hobby Lobby, and thousands of other employers, can successfully opt out under Section 1555.

4 posted on 11/28/2012 12:50:45 PM PST by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free)
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To: NEMDF

If ADF,Landmark Legal and other similar Constitution-upholding groups go to bat for people in need of help , I could see this working and spreading.

Death by a thousand cuts...like the leftard hoplophobes do with their gun control.


5 posted on 11/28/2012 12:50:58 PM PST by TurboZamboni (Looting the future to bribe the present)
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To: TurboZamboni

The options (as described by this article) are:

1) Not have any medical insurance coverage for yourself of your family.

2) Buy a stand-alone policy for your family. The cost of which will be in the ballpark of $20,000 a year (due to the new federal mandates in ObamaCare you will not be able to buy a high-deductable, catastrophic policy).

3) Buy a policy through an exchange (either your state exchange or the federal exchange if your state doesn’t set one up). Cost? About $5,000 a year.

$5,000 vs $20,000 vs no-insurance

These are the 3 choices you will face if your employer decides to drop coverage, pay the fine, and let their employees fall under ObamaCare (which a lot of employers are going to do in 2014, regardless of whether their state has set up an exchange).

No-insurance is a non-starter for me. Sorry, but I’m not going to put my family in a position to risk financial ruin to make a political point.

Paying an extra $15,000 a year to make a political point is also a non-starter for me—I simply don’t have the money. So, I won’t be purchasing a stand-alone policy.

Which leaves me with only one practical alternative: purchase health insurance form the govt pool.

I don’t like how this works out, but this is how ObamaCare is designed—to box citizens in and leave them with only one practical alternative.


6 posted on 11/28/2012 12:53:09 PM PST by Brookhaven (theconservativehand.com - alt2p.com)
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*


7 posted on 11/28/2012 12:59:33 PM PST by PMAS (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing)
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To: NEMDF

Why would any business that is ALREADY offering health insurance to its employees opt out?

The cost of participating in ObamaCare will be LESS for them than opting out. The fine per employee is waaaaaaay less than they pay currently per employee for coverage.

They can wash their hands of providing health care. The administration costs, the employee headaches, all of it. Companies are not in business to provide benefits to employees. They want to concentrate on their business (printing, building trucks, or whatever it is).


8 posted on 11/28/2012 1:04:02 PM PST by Brookhaven (theconservativehand.com - alt2p.com)
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To: TurboZamboni

If you are moslem I believe you can. Also Amish.


9 posted on 11/28/2012 1:04:32 PM PST by rawhide
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To: TurboZamboni
I believe the Amish and Muslims are allowed to opt out. I've recently discovered that I'm Amish, just like Hillary discovered her Jewish roots and became a Yankees fan a few years back.

I'm a bit out of step with the church, having a razor, a car, electricity, a smart phone, and firearms, but I'm struggling to reconcile. No one can deny me my religion, no matter how much of a sinner I am.

Political correctness can cut both ways, if you're clever.

10 posted on 11/28/2012 1:07:54 PM PST by Hardastarboard (Bringing children to America without immigration documents is child abuse. Let's end it.)
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To: rawhide

“If you are moslem I believe you can. Also Amish.”

The question isn’t if you can opt out, the question is what happens if your employer opts in?

You can’t keep your old insurance (which was a lie to begin with) if your employer drops its coverage and dumps all its employees into the government pool.


11 posted on 11/28/2012 1:09:12 PM PST by Brookhaven (theconservativehand.com - alt2p.com)
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To: Brookhaven

You forgot to add the fact that Obamacare will force people of faith to violate their conscience if they choose the exchanges. Paying for abortifacients and contraception for others may not be a deal breaker for you, but it is for millions of Catholics and Christians. And no one said you can’t receive treatment if you’re not insured. Maybe you shouldn’t be so quick to throw in the towel.


12 posted on 11/28/2012 1:12:02 PM PST by Prince of Space (Be Breitbart, baby!)
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To: Hardastarboard

OK clever guy, you’ve discovered your Amish roots and opted out of ObamaCare.

Meanwhile, your employer (along with 90% of the businesses in your state) has decided to opt-in to ObamaCare, because (1) it’s cheaper for companies that were providing medical insurance to their employees to do so, and (2) since most other companies are opting in also, there’s no competitive disadvantage to them opting in. So, you can no longer obtain health insurance for your family through your employer.

Where are you going to get health insurance? Or, are you going to allow your family to go uninsured?


13 posted on 11/28/2012 1:15:52 PM PST by Brookhaven (theconservativehand.com - alt2p.com)
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To: TurboZamboni

The Obamacare law actually says yes; however, the IRS goon that comes after you if you opt out will probably have a different opinion.

“No individual, company, business, nonprofit entity, or health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insurance coverage shall be required to participate in any Federal health insurance program created under this Act (or any amendments made by this Act), or in any Federal health insurance program expanded by this Act (or any such amendment), and there shall be no penalty or fine imposed upon any such issuer for choosing not to participate in such programs.”

http://www.coachisright.com/the-law-itself-says-virtually-no-one-has-to-participate-in-obamacare/


14 posted on 11/28/2012 1:23:48 PM PST by BuffaloJack (Children, pets, and slaves get taken care of. Free Men take care of themselves.)
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To: TurboZamboni

Even if all this stuff is true about the law, there is no way out—the Medicare law is also “voluntary” for those over 65!


15 posted on 11/28/2012 1:25:25 PM PST by browniexyz
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To: rawhide

I believe the Christian health sharing ministries also qualify for the opt-out.

These are great because they direct-pay and you can get discounts from the doctors and facilities... for now.

Since the left’s goal is to control your access to healthcare, this will not remain open long.

In the end, no one will be able to buy or sell without “the mark”.


16 posted on 11/28/2012 1:25:50 PM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: TurboZamboni

Amd P.S. there is NOT one conservative group out there that has the GUTS or the FUNDS for such a lawsuit!


17 posted on 11/28/2012 1:26:19 PM PST by browniexyz
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To: MrB

A Kentucky judge has ruled the Christian health sharing ministries can’t operate in Kentucky.


18 posted on 11/28/2012 1:27:46 PM PST by browniexyz
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To: TurboZamboni
Can you opt out of Obamacare?

I doubt it. All of the lawyers who studied it and looked for a way to oppose it concluded that it constituted an unconstitutional individual mandate. If it was optional, the lawyers could not have even made that argument.

If you're under 65, I think that the only way to avoid Obamacare is to emigrate.

19 posted on 11/28/2012 1:29:53 PM PST by Tau Food (Never give a sword to a man who can't dance.)
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To: Servant of the Cross
Different argument.
Different set of facts.
Different point of law.

Hobby Lobby has not, so far, brought up this weakness in the law, as far as I know.

20 posted on 11/28/2012 1:30:06 PM PST by Kansas58
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To: Kansas58

Ambiguities are generally construed against the party that drafted the document.


21 posted on 11/28/2012 1:39:13 PM PST by BIV (typical white person)
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To: Prince of Space
You forgot to add the fact that Obamacare will force people of faith to violate their conscience if they choose the exchanges. Paying for abortifacients and contraception for others may not be a deal breaker for you, but it is for millions of Catholics and Christians.

Break that question out into individuals and organizations.

ObamaCare forces insurance companies to provide those services, it does not force individuals to use those services. I would guess that a significant percentage (as in a majority) of pro-lifers work for a company that provides coverage for both abortion and birth control in their current policies. I haven't been aware of any major movement in the pro-life community encouraging individuals to quit their jobs if the company they work for provides coverage for either.

Now, as far as organizations that must contribute to ObamaCare (like a church or business with religious owners) this is a major problem. I expect them fight tooth and nail.

But, let's be honest here. 95% of businesses are completely secular--totally non-religious. The questions of birth control and abortion will not even come up when deciding whether or not to opt-in to ObamaCare.

And no one said you can’t receive treatment if you’re not insured.

And, nobody said you still wouldn't have to pay for that treatment out of your pocket. Remember, high-deductible, catastrophic policies are not illegal. So if a serious illness strikes (let's say a cancer) you're looking at losing your house, car, savings...everything.

Maybe you shouldn’t be so quick to throw in the towel.

I'm not giving up, but I'm pointing out the realities. The people pushing non-participation never seem to go any deeper--never seem to get to the "and then what" question.

22 posted on 11/28/2012 1:43:29 PM PST by Brookhaven (theconservativehand.com - alt2p.com)
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To: Brookhaven
Remember, high-deductible, catastrophic policies are not illegal.

Maybe not for the next 12 to 18 months. But what then?

23 posted on 11/28/2012 2:01:07 PM PST by John Valentine (Deep in the Heart of Texas)
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To: Brookhaven
ObamaCare forces insurance companies to provide those services, it does not force individuals to use those services

It forces individuals to subsidize them with their insurance premiums as abortion-inducing drugs will be covered under every policy. For exchange policies that cover surgical abortion, there is an abortion specific premium. Our tax dollars will also be pumped into Planned Parenthood and ilk as they get in on school based clinics and other programs created by PPACA.

Remember, high-deductible, catastrophic policies are not illegal.

But they don't meet the requirements for acceptable policies, so it will be difficult for companies who provide them to continue offering them in the long term.

24 posted on 11/28/2012 2:05:17 PM PST by PeevedPatriot
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To: Hardastarboard

I wondered why you drove that black buggy with the cloth top.


25 posted on 11/28/2012 2:06:31 PM PST by CrazyIvan (Obama's birth certificate was found stapled to Soros's receipt.)
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To: NEMDF

Like virtually everything else, the meaning of this paragraph will be determined by the judge it winds up in front of. If it’s an Obama appointee, forget it. The language will NOT mean anything CLOSE to what it actually says. Instead, it will mean what Obama WANTS it to!


26 posted on 11/28/2012 2:20:05 PM PST by Oldpuppymax
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To: Brookhaven; kabar; C. Edmund Wright
I'm not giving up, but I'm pointing out the realities.

Now that's the type of thinking I like. None of this namby, pamby emotional hand wringing & crying about paradise lost (and possible redemption). I find it particularly annoying when I see FR catering to the conservative porn crowd.

Ok, so let's get down to brass tacks. One of the greatest business opportunities in our life times is to carve out a piece of the action in what is, and will be, the complete cluster f*ck that is PPACA. We're looking at a take-over of 1/6 of the economy, and further plans to siphon off $trillions in existing wealth from the remaining 25-30% presently holding the line.

Since white boomers (and by extension, the Republic) are doomed anyway, why not participate in the fleecing? After all, you're gonna need the dough to cover for your own survival.

As a logical exercise, let's grant a few assumptions:
- businesses will take the path of least resistance; as you state, they are completely agnostic, and will simply drop, opt-in or opt-out based on purely financial considerations
- fed.gov will create exchanges where states fail to do so, thus offering cafeteria plans to those residents
- we can expect to see massive cost shifting, increases in co-pays/deductibles, new capitation rates and of course service denials (ie death panels)
- health care suppliers (hospitals, doctors & nurses) will see service declines due to health care becoming a nightmare industry of which no actual care-giver will want to be involved
- Medicare is being raided to support PPACA/Medicaid, so we'll see continued service cuts in that arena as well, making Medicare completely untenable as an actual facilitator of health care
-Medicaid & state programs will become even more of a joke than they are now; they too will devolve into something similar to Mexican health clinics

So let's add it up: (much) higher insurance costs, lower (or no) health services, and raids on accumulated wealth to cover out-of-pocket costs.

What is gonna happen? Where are the opportunities? If you're not a predator, then you're simply prey. Not taking action is to offer yourself (and your family) to the wolves.

27 posted on 11/28/2012 2:44:13 PM PST by semantic
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To: Hardastarboard
exactly my thought -

new bumper sticker coming……"my other car is a black carriage"


28 posted on 11/28/2012 3:30:49 PM PST by Revelation 911
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To: Hardastarboard
exactly my thought -

new bumper sticker coming……"my other car is a black carriage"


29 posted on 11/28/2012 3:31:45 PM PST by Revelation 911
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To: Hardastarboard
exactly my thought -

new bumper sticker coming……"my other car is a black carriage"


30 posted on 11/28/2012 3:31:53 PM PST by Revelation 911
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To: Revelation 911

….and yes, I stutter


31 posted on 11/28/2012 3:34:01 PM PST by Revelation 911
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To: PeevedPatriot; All
Remember, high-deductible, catastrophic policies are not illegal. But they don't meet the requirements for acceptable policies, so it will be difficult for companies who provide them to continue offering them in the long term.

yes so many policies will not meet the benchmark of a "Qualified Plan" if my research is correct...

* The High Deductible Plans for College Students
* The "McDonald's type plans that their a gazillion waivers for, that will lapse.
* HSA's will have to meet the Qualified Plan too...

If my memory is correct they all have to offer all the Obama Freebee's, i.e. Free Checkup, Birth Control Pills, Mammogram's, No maximum on the Policy and on till 26 if it's your parents plan, Colonoscopies etc etc....

This is why your policies are going through the moon and many will just go away, as Obama further destroys contract law on our road to Neuvo-Socialism..

32 posted on 11/28/2012 3:42:15 PM PST by taildragger (( Tighten the 5 point harness and brace for Impact Freepers, ya know it's coming..... ))
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To: TurboZamboni

If I may..............here’s a link to my OBCare prostate cancer article

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2963851/posts


33 posted on 11/28/2012 3:44:50 PM PST by morphing libertarian
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To: Brookhaven

Other options under Obamacare:
* Join a medical sharing ministry like Medi-Share - they’ve been recognized as a legal alternative to health insurance.
* Join a religious group with an exemption to Obamacare, be it Christian Scientist, Muslim, Amish.
* Be legally too poor to pay the fine but refuse to sign up for government services.


34 posted on 11/28/2012 3:59:34 PM PST by tbw2
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To: semantic

Now that’s interesting - love the nice, concise view.

Will you share your plan with us? :-)


35 posted on 11/28/2012 4:44:29 PM PST by MV=PY (The Magic Question: Who's paying for it)
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To: MV=PY; originalbuckeye; Brookhaven; GeronL; kabar; C. Edmund Wright
Some thoughts & ideas right here:

Link

I think people will have to come to the realization that they are simply not going to receive adequate medical care. It doesn't have to be hard cuts/denial of service either.

It an be as simple & indirect as being forced to wait 6+ mos (until it's too late and you're already gone), to making the paperwork mountain, or search for remaining care givers under a certain programs, so impossible as to encourage one to simply give up.

So, besides the opportunities in health care boot camps and/or Soma "rest stations", I think there's gonna be some interesting opportunities in 'pay for access'. That is, pay some eager-beavers to spend the countless hours phoning, waiting on hold, scheduling and filling out paperwork for the poor suckers that actually need care.

Actually, in a weird way, it's sort of like Alinsky coming full circle. He gets a bad rap here - for obvious reasons - but that guy was certainly a genius in designing effective campaign/protests to get what he & his grievance group(s) wanted.

Whatever remaining power, via votes and/or their life savings, boomers have to offer to politicians for maybe a few more years of living, can perhaps be channeled by effective organization to achieve at least some dignity during their final years.

I know the natural tendency for conservatives is to suck it up, tough it out and/or go their own way, but at some point one has to recognize defeat and figure out a way to maybe, just maybe, make it through the bottleneck by whatever means possible.

36 posted on 11/28/2012 5:14:32 PM PST by semantic
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To: taildragger
This is why your policies are going through the moon and many will just go away, as Obama further destroys contract law on our road to Neuvo-Socialism

Indeed. The part that boggles my mind is the incredible waste of money for state/federal exchanges. Everyone essentially has an identical policy. There is no choice except which insurance company you want to send your federally predetermined premium to. If you can't shop for the deductible that best meets your budget or the benefits you need most, then the exchange becomes another waste of money. They could more cost effectively send you a letter saying your choices are company A, B, or C. Pick one and mail your premium of $X.XX if you want X% out of pocket expenses, premium $X.XX for X% out of pocket, or $X.XX for X% out of pocket.

There are a lot of people who are going to be blown away when they find out their bloated premiums still leave them with substantial out of pocket expenses. THAT is the point I think that STHF.

37 posted on 11/28/2012 6:49:25 PM PST by PeevedPatriot
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To: PeevedPatriot
I didn’t even think of the bloat in the Exchanges, wow Fedzilla jobs staffed w/ Obamatons, Oye Vey... FWIW, this one policy one size fits all is just like the State of Mass and their Auto Insurance before I escaped the Socialist Republic. They had No-Fault and their was no real competition, you went with carrier X but their premium and policy were identical to carrier Y. Move to CT and you could get USAA or Gieco because they refused to do business in the Peoples Socialist Repubik of Mass. What was worse in MA was the cost shifting, basically Western Ma was helping absorb the cost of shipdit drivers in Boston, my guess is we will have this w/ Obamacare until the music stops and their is only so many chairs....
38 posted on 11/29/2012 3:08:32 AM PST by taildragger (( Tighten the 5 point harness and brace for Impact Freepers, ya know it's coming..... ))
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