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Another Shooting May Test Florida Law(Jordan, Dunn)
nytimes.com ^ | 28 November, 2012 | LIZETTE ALVAREZ

Posted on 11/29/2012 12:52:02 AM PST by marktwain

MIAMI — In what could become another test of Florida’s broad self-defense law, a software developer charged with killing a Jacksonville teenager said he reached for his gun and fired eight rounds only after he was threatened with a shotgun.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; News/Current Events; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: banglist; dunn; fl; jordan; jordandavis; michaeldunn
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The other side of the story comes out. The fact that the New York Times is reporting Dunn's side of the story is significant.

As I recall it took them a long time to report Zimmerman's side of events.

1 posted on 11/29/2012 12:52:09 AM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain

Ah, but according to the article, the shotgun hasn’t been found. This doesn’t mean it wasn’t tossed, but we’ll see.


2 posted on 11/29/2012 1:03:35 AM PST by Amberdawn
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To: marktwain

Dispute over loud music? = Stupid.

Leave the scene? = Really stupid.

Then, to be tracked down by the police? They charged him with second degree murder. Duh!


3 posted on 11/29/2012 1:15:43 AM PST by QBFimi (When gunpowder speaks, beasts listen.)
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To: marktwain

Ah, but according to the article, the shotgun hasn’t been found. This doesn’t mean it wasn’t tossed, but we’ll see.


4 posted on 11/29/2012 1:19:18 AM PST by Amberdawn
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To: Amberdawn

There are probably pictures of it on the SUV occupants’ Facebook accounts or cell phones.


5 posted on 11/29/2012 1:26:13 AM PST by FreedomPoster (Islam delenda est.)
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To: marktwain
The other side of the story comes out. The fact that the New York Times is reporting Dunn's side of the story is significant.

What is significant about it? Everyone has been reporting the story the same way, as soon as his attorney put out a claim of a shot-gun, everyone reported it, so what is the big deal?

Who has been holding anything back? Heck you have been on a long thread that had all kinds of reporting of it, so why pretend that they weren't?

6 posted on 11/29/2012 1:41:09 AM PST by ansel12 (The only Senate seat GOP pick up was the Palin endorsed Deb Fischer's successful run in Nebraska)
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To: marktwain; All

We all need to be wary of any story like this that makes Blacks “innocent” during these types of crimes....we know from the George Zimmerman case that the media will lie to cover for Blacks...even at the expense of other minorities

Sad part is that Jack Booted Nazi Thug Angela Corey is the State Atty in Jacksonville (Duval County) and she has another Stand Your Ground victim to prosecute. This one will be a little easier for her as the victim is White


7 posted on 11/29/2012 3:27:38 AM PST by SeminoleCounty (Marco Rubio is not a Conservative. "Amnesty Liberals" are never Conservative)
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To: marktwain
As the car with the teenagers pulled out, he feared they would try to shoot back, so he fired four more shots, his lawyer said.

Maybe the weakest spot in the case for applying SYG even if the shotgun, or evidence of it, were found. It's unclear at best if SYG should apply to shooting a fleeing assailant. I'm also surprised with that little bitty 9 mm gun someone was badly wounded, let alone killed.

8 posted on 11/29/2012 3:32:19 AM PST by HiTech RedNeck (How long before all this "fairness" kills everybody, even the poor it was supposed to help???)
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To: ansel12

But the NYT wasn’t able to complete the story without one bogus comparison of “no weapon found.” Well in the Traytable case, it is also “no weapon alleged,” and there has not been a formal filing asking for SYG in the Traytable case, which there has to be in order to use it.


9 posted on 11/29/2012 3:35:48 AM PST by HiTech RedNeck (How long before all this "fairness" kills everybody, even the poor it was supposed to help???)
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To: QBFimi

I suspect he was really drunk, which was probably one of the reasons he left the scene. Actually, it was probably one of the reasons the whole thing happened.


10 posted on 11/29/2012 3:53:09 AM PST by livius
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To: marktwain
Does anybody on this thread, anybody, think that the first, second, or even last thing going through George Zimmerman's mind, or Michael Dunn's mind, is "I'm protected from murder charges of shooting this @$$#ole who's attacking me by a "Stand Your Ground" law? I'll go ahead and pull the trigger, then get a good lawyer and ask them to use SYG as my defense. Die, scumbag!"

Yep. Sure they do. I would go around looking for perps to blow away if my state had that law. / bitter sarc

11 posted on 11/29/2012 4:39:33 AM PST by Hardastarboard (Bringing children to America without immigration documents is child abuse. Let's end it.)
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To: marktwain

Mr. Dunn will probably die in prison. We’ll see what all comes out in the courtroom.

But one lesson might, “might,” just be learned by some of our yutes:

Crazy Old White Guys might just pull out a blaster and shoot your ass if you blast your music too loud in the parking lot.


12 posted on 11/29/2012 4:54:38 AM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
I'm also surprised with that little bitty 9 mm gun someone was badly wounded, let alone killed.

9mm's have killed a lot of people.

13 posted on 11/29/2012 5:03:22 AM PST by 2111USMC (aim small, miss small)
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To: marktwain
But she said the shooting bore no resemblance to the case of George Zimmerman, accused of second-degree murder in the death of Mr. Martin.

“There is no racial motivation here whatsoever,” Ms. Lemonidis said. “He would have never, ever, in a million years pulled a gun if his life was not threatened. He saw a shotgun, and four inches of the barrel, and the guy said to him, ‘This is going down now’ and popped the door open.”

There is absolutely no racial motivation in the Trayvon Martin case, as well. To say there is - is a blatant lie.

14 posted on 11/29/2012 5:10:42 AM PST by liberalh8ter (If Barack has a memory like a steel trap, why can't he remember what the Constitution says?)
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To: marktwain
pointed a shotgun at him through a partly rolled-down window, threatened to kill him and began to open the door.

His story is evolving -- the "threatened to kill him" is new. If the music was so loud how would he hear any threats. And "began to open the door" is also new but the back doors were locked and lock controlled from the front.

His story is evolving -- but his problems are many.

15 posted on 11/29/2012 5:27:10 AM PST by Uncle Chip
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To: marktwain

Everyone involved in this story is stupid and lying.


16 posted on 11/29/2012 5:31:51 AM PST by Brooklyn Attitude (Obama being re-elected is the political equivalent of OJ being found not guilty.)
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To: 2111USMC

Of course it can and has. It’s just it’s such a piddly weapon from the viewpoint of having to use it for self defense in a chaotic situation.


17 posted on 11/29/2012 5:37:51 AM PST by HiTech RedNeck (How long before all this "fairness" kills everybody, even the poor it was supposed to help???)
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To: Uncle Chip

Somebody points a shot gun at you and it ain’t a threat to kill?


18 posted on 11/29/2012 5:39:23 AM PST by HiTech RedNeck (How long before all this "fairness" kills everybody, even the poor it was supposed to help???)
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To: marktwain
fled the convenience store in his Volkswagen Jetta after the teenagers left because he was afraid they would return,

Sorry but that is a pathetic excuse. If you are afraid go in the store and lock the door. The clerk was already on the phone to the police and if not he should have been.

Was he in any way concerned that the shots that he fired at the vehicle might have gone awry and hit some innocent person in the line of fire???.

19 posted on 11/29/2012 5:39:23 AM PST by Uncle Chip
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To: Uncle Chip; All
His story is evolving -- the "threatened to kill him" is new. If the music was so loud how would he hear any threats. And "began to open the door" is also new but the back doors were locked and lock controlled from the front.

I do not see how you can say his "story is evolving" when this is in the first account that was put out by his attorney. The only other accounts that I recall were saying that he claimed self defense, so I do not see any "evolution".

20 posted on 11/29/2012 5:40:28 AM PST by marktwain
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To: ansel12; All
What is significant about it? Everyone has been reporting the story the same way, as soon as his attorney put out a claim of a shot-gun, everyone reported it, so what is the big deal?

What is significant about it is that the New York Times is publishing it within two days of the event. George Zimmerman's version of events did not get national coverage for weeks, as I recall.

The significance is how the MSM is handling the situation.

21 posted on 11/29/2012 5:43:37 AM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain
But she said the shooting bore no resemblance to the case of George Zimmerman, accused of second-degree murder in the death of Mr. Martin. “There is no racial motivation here whatsoever,” Ms. Lemonidis said.

Hey Ms Lemonididthis, have you been living in a bubble. There was no racial motivation in the Martin case.

The day may soon come when you will wish the facts bore resemblance to the Martin case.

She's grasping at straws here.

22 posted on 11/29/2012 5:45:23 AM PST by Uncle Chip
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Somebody points a shot gun at you and it ain’t a threat to kill?

He never said that it was pointed at him.

And he's claiming NOW that he actually heard them say the words that they were going to kill him -- over the loud music of course. As I said his story is evolving --

23 posted on 11/29/2012 5:50:56 AM PST by Uncle Chip
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To: Uncle Chip

If they were going to mouth off to the shooter, they were utter imbeciles if they didn’t turn it down, if not off.


24 posted on 11/29/2012 5:55:06 AM PST by HiTech RedNeck (How long before all this "fairness" kills everybody, even the poor it was supposed to help???)
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To: marktwain
I do not see how you can say his "story is evolving" when this is in the first account that was put out by his attorney.

Do you have a link to that first account. I remember her speaking hypothetically not factually --

25 posted on 11/29/2012 5:56:20 AM PST by Uncle Chip
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To: Uncle Chip; All

“fled the convenience store in his Volkswagen Jetta after the teenagers left because he was afraid they would return,”

Here is more from his lawyer’s statement, given earlier:

“He was also concerned with leaving the area because he didn’t know if these gang members, what they were, who. He’s in a strange town. He doesn’t know if they’re on their cellphones saying, ‘Hey, come back and get this guy in the Jetta.’ He just wanted to get to a safe place and try and figure out what to do.”

http://www.news4jax.com/news/Lawyer-Murder-suspect-saw-shotgun-in-teens-SUV/-/475880/17566116/-/ku79pw/-/index.html

This is very close to the advise that I have taught in my concealed carry course. Do not stay at the scene if you feel you are still in danger. Get to a safe location, then call the police.

There are plenty of neighborhoods where I would “flee the scene” after a shooting so that I would be sure to survive to contact the police.

I know nothing about the neighborhood where the shooting occured, but I think many jurors can relate to the reasonableness of the fear.


26 posted on 11/29/2012 6:08:12 AM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain
I have a hard time believing this story...about the shotgun being pointed out the window...

A car full of teenage wanna be gangsta carrying around a shotgun ?

Considering you can get a handgun dime a dozen in Jacksonville... especially in the hood..

Why would a car full of kids carry around a shotgun?

Me thinks the guy was drunk and did something really stupid and will go to the big house for at manslaughter

27 posted on 11/29/2012 6:10:43 AM PST by Popman
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To: marktwain
When he saw the shotgun and heard the threat, Mr. Dunn reached into his glove compartment, unholstered his Taurus 9-millimeter gun and fired two rounds into the back seat, and then two more. As the car with the teenagers pulled out, he feared they would try to shoot back, so he fired four more shots, his lawyer said.

He returned to the hotel, believing no one had been hurt.

He had time to reach into his glove box to get his weapon but not leave?

One has to wonder why he thought firing 8 rounds into a vehicle and no one was hurt ?

He fired 4 more rounds into a vehicle pulling away ?

This is hardly self defense,the way the law is written... more like moronic...

28 posted on 11/29/2012 6:20:20 AM PST by Popman
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To: marktwain
This is very close to the advise that I have taught in my concealed carry course.

Is this guy one of your students??? If so he may want his money back.

Do not stay at the scene if you feel you are still in danger. Get to a safe location, then call the police.

So a store where they have cameras and security and more police presence than most anywhere is safer than a motel room??? And that motel room wasn't safe enough either as he fled from there to his home in Brevard County -- and never called the police.

Do you also teach your students to fire at fleeing vehicles???

29 posted on 11/29/2012 6:27:09 AM PST by Uncle Chip
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To: Popman

Shotgun. Cheaper purchase cost, ammo is cheap, shots are untraceable...

Actually, sounds like the perfect Banger weapon.


30 posted on 11/29/2012 6:33:41 AM PST by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
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To: Uncle Chip

“His story is evolving”

Why it’s almost as if he’s making it up as he goes along.


31 posted on 11/29/2012 6:40:40 AM PST by ksen
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To: HiTech RedNeck

The 9mm has killed more people than the .45 ever will.

Of course, if you’re willing to participate in a testing protocol ...


32 posted on 11/29/2012 6:43:39 AM PST by SJSAMPLE
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To: HiTech RedNeck

Nonsense.
It’s within 5% of the .45ACP in “one-shot-stop” statistics, and it’s used effectively far more often than the non-”piddly” cartridges.


33 posted on 11/29/2012 6:46:31 AM PST by SJSAMPLE
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To: Dead Corpse

...yeah...but holding a shotgun sideways like a gang banger holds his gun is way harder and not nearly as cool...


34 posted on 11/29/2012 6:48:30 AM PST by Popman
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To: Popman; All
He had time to reach into his glove box to get his weapon but not leave?

If he left, he would have been abandoning his girlfriend in the store, to the potential gang when she came out.

From his discription, as in many of these cases that you read about, the threat was escalated over time.

I want everyone to understand that I was not there. I do not think anyone commenting was there.

I am merely explaining obvious possibilities. If Dunn had called the police right away, the presumption of his innocence would be very likely. We will find out more over time.

Here are some obvious questions:

Who were the people in the SUV?

Did any of them have a criminal record?

Who owned the SUV? Did they take Jordan to the Hospital?

How long was it after the shooting that they reported it to police?

As others have noted, it is really too early to know what happened, but we have two very different versions of events.

35 posted on 11/29/2012 6:53:55 AM PST by marktwain
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To: Travis McGee
I do see incidents like this as an inevitable result of the "Two Americas" clashing cultures (to grace America's current evil-worship with the term).

Most of these teens are typical -- all balls and no brains -- I would have likely been loud on a speakers myself if that kind of gear had been around in my day.

But unlike our generation, these self-anointed 'gangstas' have rarely ever had to deal with any part of physical reality that normally results from such behavior in a more natural setting, i.e.: One where you get your ass kicked if you act up.

So once in a while they will run into the cold steel wall of reality, where flesh and bone don't fare well.

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

36 posted on 11/29/2012 6:54:58 AM PST by Joe Brower (The "American People" are no longer capable of self-governance.)
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To: Popman

I don’t know about that. The barrel of a shotgun pointed at you is pretty Universal language for “You are about to have a really bad day”.


37 posted on 11/29/2012 6:57:55 AM PST by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
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To: marktwain
If he left, he would have been abandoning his girlfriend in the store, to the potential gang when she came out.

So grab your gun from the glove box and go into the store and protect her there as you call the police. Instead he's going to let her come out of the store into the midst of a gun battle that he starts????

Please ---

38 posted on 11/29/2012 7:06:57 AM PST by Uncle Chip
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To: Uncle Chip
Uncle Chip posted:

“Instead he’s going to let her come out of the store into the midst of a gun battle that he starts????”

marktwain replies:

Your hypothetical does not fit either of the accounts being put forward.

In Dunn’s account, he did not start the gun battle, he responded to a threat.

In the account put forward by unknown associats of Jordan’s, there was no gun battle.

39 posted on 11/29/2012 7:50:20 AM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain
In Dunn’s account, he did not start the gun battle, he responded to a threat.

And the facts of the threat were???? that's right -- there is no evidence of such.

And I'm sure that the ME is testing the kid's hands for gun residue as well to be sure.

He asked them to turn it down. At first they did, Ms. Lemonidis said. But then they turned the volume back up and began cursing him.

How did he hear that cursing and any threat over that loud music that they just turned back up.

When he saw the shotgun and heard the threat, Mr. Dunn reached into his glove compartment, unholstered his Taurus 9-millimeter gun and fired two rounds into the back seat, and then two more. As the car with the teenagers pulled out, he feared they would try to shoot back, so he fired four more shots, his lawyer said.

The only threat here was Dunn and he was a threat to the people in this car and the public safety. He fired first. He was the only one who fired. And he fired last.

It sounds to me that if those in the other car had had a weapon that they would have been justified in shooting him as he was the real threat here -- but they didn't because they either did not have a weapon or showed more restraint than the licensed gunowner here.

40 posted on 11/29/2012 8:28:03 AM PST by Uncle Chip
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To: Uncle Chip; All
Uncle Chip posted:

The only threat here was Dunn and he was a threat to the people in this car and the public safety. He fired first. He was the only one who fired. And he fired last.

It sounds to me that if those in the other car had had a weapon that they would have been justified in shooting him as he was the real threat here — but they didn't because they either did not have a weapon or showed more restraint than the licensed gunowner here.

marktwain replies:

Often, defenders are the first and only people to have fired in an incident. It is not uncommon for defenders to fire before their attackers do, and to stop them from firing.

If the incident happened as Jordan's associates say, then Dunn was the threat. Apparently, you find their account convincing.

If the incident happened as Dunn's attorney says, then Dunn was justified.

I have read of thousands of armed encounters and posted them here on freerepublic. The account that Dunn's attorney gives seems basically plausible to me. The idea that a successful businessman, who has never been in trouble, simply starts shooting at a car full of young men who refuse to shut their music down, seems far less plausible.

It may be that details are being left out, that more evidence will come forward. I expect more will. If it turns out that Dunn has a fatal disease, a criminal record, or has mental problems or drug/alcohol abuse problems, or has a record of white supremacy, Jordan's associates account becomes more plausible.

If it turns out that Jordan's associates have criminal records, drug/alcohol abuse problems, mental problems or hatred of “Whitey”, then the account that Dunn's attorney has given becomes more plausible.

41 posted on 11/29/2012 9:04:25 AM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain
fatal disease, a criminal record, or mental problems, drug/alcohol abuse problems, a record of white supremacy, .....hatred of “Whitey”

None of that has anything to do with the evidence against him. There is no evidence of a weapon of any kind in the kids' vehicle. Unless they find gun residue on the deceased kid's hands, Dunn is toast.

He left the scene. He finds out the police are looking for him and he leaves town. He drove 170 miles away. And it's 4 days later and he still hasn't called the police. They had to track him down from video at the gas station.

This is not the horse you want to attach your wagon to.

42 posted on 11/29/2012 10:59:20 AM PST by Uncle Chip
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To: marktwain

This has nothing to do with Zimmerman, and your strange conspiracy, theatrics are childish.

There hasn’t been anything strange about the routine reporting of this shooting.


43 posted on 11/29/2012 11:41:45 AM PST by ansel12 (The only Senate seat GOP pick up was the Palin endorsed Deb Fischer's successful run in Nebraska)
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To: marktwain; ansel12; wideawake; Uncle Chip
The weeks ahead will shed a lot of light on this issue, however as it stands now there should be little argument that this man seriously messed up. The only question is whether the mess up was due a) to his actions following a legitimate shooting as he defended himself; or b) an unjustified 'hotheaded' shooting that equals major jailtime. It is either or, and in both cases Dunn messed up.

I am pasting a link to an article by Massad Ayoob on the three main mistakes people make after a JUSTIFIED shooting. It would seem Dunn read the article and decided to do exactly as it said - in the inverse.

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/3-most-common-post-shooting-errors

44 posted on 11/29/2012 12:17:01 PM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: QBFimi
Leave the scene? = Really stupid. Then, to be tracked down by the police? They charged him with second degree murder. Duh!

When I took a class on CCW and the law, one thing that was stressed is that in the eyes of law enforcement, flight=guilt. After a self-defense shooting, you MUST be the first to call 911 and report the incident.

This does not mean you are required to stay in a potentially-dangerous location. If you think the thug's friends will shortly show up, it is OK to leave the immediate area in order to get to a safer location (like the police station) in order to get in contact with the police.

45 posted on 11/29/2012 12:22:06 PM PST by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: Uncle Chip
If the music was so loud how would he hear any threats.

Answer: It's NOT music. It is extreme low frequency oscillation. You can talk over it while it rattles the fillings in your teeth and nearby windows. I had this very same argument with a coworker last night, an otherwise sane man who could not make the distiction between a 5 watt amplifier and a 6x9 speaker and a 500 watt amplifier and a bank of 18 in woofers.

This is NOT MUSIC. It is TORTURE. And it is used/designed to torture the peace loving populace.

46 posted on 11/29/2012 12:40:37 PM PST by Musket (It's very simple:<i>your quoted text pasted here</i><p> produces Quoted Italic with paragraph break)
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To: spetznaz; All
The weeks ahead will shed a lot of light on this issue, however as it stands now there should be little argument that this man seriously messed up. The only question is whether the mess up was due a) to his actions following a legitimate shooting as he defended himself; or b) an unjustified 'hotheaded' shooting that equals major jailtime. It is either or, and in both cases Dunn messed up.

I think you nailed it.

47 posted on 11/29/2012 1:16:00 PM PST by marktwain
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To: ansel12; All
This has nothing to do with Zimmerman, and your strange conspiracy, theatrics are childish.

You are grasping. In the very article we are discussing, the Zimmerman case is discussed.

Comparisons with the Zimmerman case are all over the net, and all over the discussions on freerepublic.

There is no conspiracy in noting the considerable difference in the reporting of the two incidents, though I am not exactly sure what the difference results from.

48 posted on 11/29/2012 1:35:06 PM PST by marktwain
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To: Uncle Chip
None of that has anything to do with the evidence against him. There is no evidence of a weapon of any kind in the kids' vehicle. Unless they find gun residue on the deceased kid's hands, Dunn is toast.

What is this "gun residue" that you are refering to?

49 posted on 11/29/2012 1:38:00 PM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain
Your drama queen breathlessness is creepy.

You keep trying to turn what is so far, a normal, plain, routinely reported crime story into something bigger, more melodramatic, and as part of some larger tale of something.

Yesterday you were telling us how you survived an attempted robbery, with that same drama queen tone, "This time they chose poorly. I survived it." but you never got past simply saying that a black man had addressed you from his car, while at the mall parking lot.

Now I know situational awareness as much as just about anyone here, but seriously, your imagination and melodramatic tones are way over the top, and you are doing it to this fully, openly, reported story.

Weren't you one of the ones defending the Oklahoma Pharmacist who was convicted of 1st degree murder and is serving life?

50 posted on 11/29/2012 1:51:06 PM PST by ansel12 (The only Senate seat GOP pick up was the Palin endorsed Deb Fischer's successful run in Nebraska)
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