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Rick Warren Uncertain if Homosexual Behavior is Sinful, Says ‘Gays’ Go to Heaven
Christian News Network ^ | 11.29.12 | Heather Clark

Posted on 11/30/2012 12:10:18 PM PST by Coleus

Controversy is stirring over recent comments made by Rick Warren, author of the best-selling book The Purpose-Driven Life and megachurch leader of Saddleback Church in California, who stated that homosexual behavior “might be” sinful, and that he believes homosexuals go to Heaven. During an interview this week with the Huffington Post, Warren was asked by Marc Lamont Hill if having romantic feelings for a member of the same sex is a sin. Leading up to the question, Warren was explaining that he does not hate homosexuals, and that people should disagree politely on the subject of homosexuality.

“I have many, many gay friends, and have worked around the world with them in gay organizations to try to stop AIDS,” he said. “We’re doing ‘World AIDS Day’ this weekend at Saddleback Church. My wife and I have given millions of dollars to help people with HIV/AIDS and have worked with gay organizations on that.” “What about the love part, though? I hear about the AIDS part,” asked Hill. “It’s not illegal to love somebody,” Warren replied. “But you think it’s a sin,” Hill asserted. “No, it’s not a sin to love somebody,” Warren said. “It might be a sin to have sex with them,” he added. “It might be.”

However, just moments prior, Hill aired a clip from an interview that Warren participated in on Piers Morgan this week, where Warren presented a slightly different answer. He began by responding to the question of whether or not a person can be born homosexual. “I think the jury is still out on that,” he said. “It wouldn’t bother me if there was a ‘gay gene’ found, because here’s what we know about life: I have all kinds of natural feelings in my life, and it doesn’t necessarily mean that I should act on every feeling. … I do not believe that attraction is a sin, but I do believe that some actions are sin.”

Warren stated during his interview with Hill that he believes sex outside of marriage is always sinful, however, and that he obtains his views from the Bible. “I make no bones about it. I’m an evangelical pastor, so my source of authority is, what does the Bible say about it?” he said. “However, people will have other sources of authority.”

“Or, different readings of the Bible,” Hill injected. “Or different readings — that’s very true,” Warren agreed. Later during the interview, when Hill asked Warren if he believes homosexuals will go to Hell, he replied that they will not. “No, not because they’re gay,” he said. “We go to Hell because we choose to reject the grace of God.” When Hill asked what happens to a homosexual that accepts Jesus, Warren responded enthusiastically. “He’s going to Heaven!” he declared. “Without a doubt.”

Warren is not the first evangelical to make the assertion, however. Earlier this year, megachurch author and speaker Joel Osteen similarly told popular talk show host Oprah that he also believes homosexuals are saved. “Will a gay person be accepted into heaven, as you see it?,” Oprah asked Osteen. “I believe they will,” he replied. Craig Gross of “XXXChurch” also made statements in July that he doesn’t think God would send homosexuals to Hell.

“Why do they (religious people) believe that the gay guy goes to Hell, but the fat preacher who builds some of the largest churches in the world makes it to Heaven?” Gross wrote in an online blog. However, many Christians view statements such as these as compromise against the word of God. “The concept of a ‘gay Christian’ is an oxymoron in light of numerous Scriptural instances wherein homosexual behavior is forbidden,” Alex Mason, policy analyst for the Family Policy Network, told Christian News Network. “One cannot live in a continual state of unrepentant sexual sin while calling themselves a Christian.”

“That’s not to say Christians can’t struggle with sin, including sexual sin,” he continued. “The Christian life as a constant struggle against sin, and just as some Christians struggle to defeat heterosexual lust, others may struggle to defeat homosexual lusts.”

Peter LaBarbera, the president of Americans for Truth About Homosexuality, agreed. He stated that he was shocked at Rick Warren’s comments. “You don’t want to give the impression that it’s fine and dandy to live the homosexual lifestyle and as long as I believe in Jesus, I can still go to Heaven,” he said. “It’s one thing to have attractions and [fight] that, [and another to embrace homosexual behavior].”

Mason, whose ministry operates the website HopeForHomosexuals.com, stated that Warren should have explained his beliefs further, so as not to jeopardize the eternity of valuable souls. “Warren failed to define what it means to ‘accept Christ,’ leaving viewers with the notion that a person can simply express a ‘belief’ in Jesus’ existence without turning away from the sins He died to atone,” he lamented.

“When you accept Christ, your behavior changes,” LaBarbera said. “And the attitude is [people like Warren] don’t want to talk about changes. … We know that God changes homosexuals, so why isn’t Rick Warren saying that?” LaBarbera also told Christian News Network that he thinks Warren is treading into very dangerous territory by insinuating that the issue of homosexual behavior is a grey area.

“What part of Romans 1 doesn’t Rick Warren understand? It’s so clear,” he said. “When you make statements like these, you end up losing the Biblical sense, and the Biblical sense is that this is an abomination.” Mason agreed, and outlined that sin needs to be taken seriously by those who wear the name of Christ.

“Christians should not, for one moment, hesitate when asked about behaviors that Scripture clearly calls sinful,” he said. “It is impossible for anyone to legitimize or make holy what God Himself has called unholy.”

“The Apostle Paul did not hesitate to faithfully echo God’s standards in his letter to the Corinthians, wherein he included a long list of sins that will keep people from the kingdom of God, including the sin of homosexuality,” Mason continued, citing 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. “Modern preachers would do well to follow Paul’s example in condemning that which God has condemned, while also proclaiming that the only hope for sinners – homosexual and heterosexual alike — is faith in Jesus Christ: ‘All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved.’”

LaBarbera said that Warren should not only have called homosexual behavior sin, but should have gone deeper to the root issue. “It’s also sinful to lust after another man,” LaBarbera said. “We can’t advocate sin as believers, and we have to think about how that the person that’s struggling with homosexuality is going to hear this.” “There is no Biblical basis for his statements,” he added. “I think Rick Warren needs to retract that ['might be'] statement and clarify it. If he does not retract it, he has fallen into error.”

“Rick Warren has a heart for lost souls, but he seems fearful he’ll offend people he could otherwise lead to salvation by telling the truth about their sin. That may indicate an inadequate faith in God’s sovereignty, or a failure to fully believe God’s Word has the power to transform lives,” Mason concluded. “I pray he’ll find the courage to be just as determined to be the salt of the earth as he is to be a light to the world.” Requests for comment were not returned by Saddleback Church.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; US: California
KEYWORDS: evangelical; faith; homosexualagenda; moralabsolutes; pastor; redemption; rickwarren; rickwarrengays; salvation; sin
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More articles on Warren here
1 posted on 11/30/2012 12:10:22 PM PST by Coleus
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To: Coleus

Everyone’s caving to depravity.


2 posted on 11/30/2012 12:11:22 PM PST by Obama_Is_Sabotaging_America (IMPEACH OBAMA)
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To: Coleus
Oh, let's just say that everyone goes to heaven!! Why be a meanie and exclude anyone?? [/s]
3 posted on 11/30/2012 12:11:28 PM PST by ClearCase_guy (Global Warming is a religion, and I don't want to be taxed to pay for a faith that is not mine.)
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To: Coleus

Guy needs to find a Bible and ACTUALLY READ IT.


4 posted on 11/30/2012 12:11:47 PM PST by madison10 (“Obama’s fools and Stalin’s fools share the same drink of illusion.” ~~Pravda)
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To: Coleus

Rick left Christian teaching a long time ago.


5 posted on 11/30/2012 12:12:02 PM PST by bmwcyle (Women reelected Obama)
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To: ClearCase_guy
Rather, why don't we try to understand that everyone is a sinner?
6 posted on 11/30/2012 12:15:16 PM PST by jdege
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To: Coleus

That question was obviously above his pay grade.


7 posted on 11/30/2012 12:16:18 PM PST by Hoodat ("As for God, His way is perfect" - Psalm 18:30)
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To: Coleus

Any “Christian” who expresses ambivelancy about the sinfulness of homosexuality has no place behind the pulpit of a Christian church.


8 posted on 11/30/2012 12:16:40 PM PST by ScottinVA (I've never been more disgusted with American voters.)
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To: Coleus

He is an insecure pragmatic wolf


9 posted on 11/30/2012 12:16:40 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: jdege

Bingo!


10 posted on 11/30/2012 12:16:46 PM PST by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both)
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To: bmwcyle

I believe he is more of an ‘industry’ than a messenger.


11 posted on 11/30/2012 12:17:20 PM PST by Obama_Is_Sabotaging_America (IMPEACH OBAMA)
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To: madison10
Hmmm... doesn't know if homosexual behavior is a sin... hmmm... I wonder where he could look? I guess it's not obviously stated anywhere, is it?

I wonder if I should take directions from this guy...
12 posted on 11/30/2012 12:17:26 PM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: Coleus
Certainly is true that he who wavers is like a wave of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. (James 1:6)
13 posted on 11/30/2012 12:17:37 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Coleus

Obviously, Rick Warren needs to return to school, learn to read, and then open up the word of God. Apparently, he has not read it, and if he has, he doesn’t understand it. Perhaps he needs to be born again.


14 posted on 11/30/2012 12:17:37 PM PST by evangmlw
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To: Obama_Is_Sabotaging_America

I believe the great sorting is going on right now.

There are several “winnowing forks” on both sides that are being used to sort people out.


15 posted on 11/30/2012 12:18:30 PM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: Obama_Is_Sabotaging_America

There always seem to be too many snake oil buyers.


16 posted on 11/30/2012 12:19:17 PM PST by bmwcyle (Women reelected Obama)
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To: Obama_Is_Sabotaging_America

Did you read the article. He said this:

Warren stated during his interview with Hill that he believes sex outside of marriage is always sinful, however, and that he obtains his views from the Bible. “I make no bones about it. I’m an evangelical pastor, so my source of authority is, what does the Bible say about it?” he said. “However, people will have other sources of authority.”

“Or, different readings of the Bible,” Hill injected. “Or different readings — that’s very true,” Warren agreed. Later during the interview, when Hill asked Warren if he believes homosexuals will go to Hell, he replied that they will not. “No, not because they’re gay,” he said. “We go to Hell because we choose to reject the grace of God.” When Hill asked what happens to a homosexual that accepts Jesus, Warren responded enthusiastically. “He’s going to Heaven!” he declared. “Without a doubt.”


17 posted on 11/30/2012 12:19:17 PM PST by luckystarmom
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To: Coleus

The Bible warns of wolves in sheep’s clothing, apostate teachers, lying leaders. This guy is one of them. He is making for himself a very warm seat in hell if he does not repent his sin. Just for your information Rickie boy, the BIBLE makes it CLEAR that homosexuality IS A SIN!!! Period. God said it. That ends the conversation about it.


18 posted on 11/30/2012 12:19:47 PM PST by RetiredArmy (1 Cor 15: 50-54 & 1 Thess 4: 13-17. That about covers it.)
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To: madison10

Which quote from Warren is at odds with the bible?


19 posted on 11/30/2012 12:19:47 PM PST by bramps (Sarah Palin got more votes in 2008 than Romney did in 2012)
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To: Coleus

Perhaps he should change the name of his ministry from “Saddleback” to “Bareback.”


20 posted on 11/30/2012 12:20:02 PM PST by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Coleus

I’m OK, you’re OK Christianity makes BIG money.


21 posted on 11/30/2012 12:22:08 PM PST by stephenjohnbanker
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To: MrB

Where does Warren say that he doesn’t know that homosexual behavior is a sin?


22 posted on 11/30/2012 12:23:00 PM PST by bramps (Sarah Palin got more votes in 2008 than Romney did in 2012)
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To: Coleus

All things being equal an unrepentant Sodomite is damned. A repentant Sodomite is saved.


23 posted on 11/30/2012 12:25:33 PM PST by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: bramps
Intentionally obtuse, much?

24 posted on 11/30/2012 12:26:25 PM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: Coleus

He must be taking some of that new LsD floating around.. most of DC and modern day media is on it..


25 posted on 11/30/2012 12:27:12 PM PST by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi)
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To: Coleus
My belief is that homosexual acts are sins,

Can a gay go to heaven? ABSOLUTELY! so long as he repents of his sins, all of them, not just homosexual ones. Same as anybody else.

Does this mean he will change his orientation? Don't know. Does he mean he will never sin again with a homosexual act? It's possible, but also possible that he will.

What it SHOULD mean, IMO, is that he should recognize the sinful nature of this behavior and stop trying to justify it to the world, leading others down the wide road to Hell.

I much prefer a hypocrite that has ideals that he's not strong enough to always follow to ones such as these:

Matthew 23:13

26 posted on 11/30/2012 12:27:13 PM PST by chesley (Vast deserts of political ignorance makes liberalism possible - James Lewis)
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To: jdege
Rather, why don't we try to understand that everyone is a sinner?

1) Each of us should recognize that, yes, we are a sinner.
2) Each of us should repent of our sins, and confess it as sinful behavior.
3) Each of us should go forth and try to sin no more -- although we will fail, we should make the effort.

The guys marching in the Gay Pride Parades? They fail on all three counts. I'm not sure Warren is all that concerned though.

27 posted on 11/30/2012 12:27:36 PM PST by ClearCase_guy (Global Warming is a religion, and I don't want to be taxed to pay for a faith that is not mine.)
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To: bramps

Here, let me rub your nose in it:

“No, it’s not a sin to love somebody,” Warren said. “It might be a sin to have sex with them,” he added. “It might be.”

“might be” means “possibly could not be”.

Now, don’t poop on the carpet again.


28 posted on 11/30/2012 12:27:42 PM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: MrB

Won’t take you long to answer this. Which quote from Warren is at odds with the bible?


29 posted on 11/30/2012 12:28:26 PM PST by bramps (Sarah Palin got more votes in 2008 than Romney did in 2012)
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To: Coleus
the only sin that will keep you out of heaven is the sin of rejecting Gods plan of salvation, that being, rejecting his sons death on the cross. No one will go to hell for any other sin as the Bible says, Christ died for every sin that has ever or will ever be committed. they were nailed to the cross with Him. Anyone that does not know this is lacking Bible doctrine. To God sin is sin whether it be stealing or murder or even mental attitude sins (in your mind). Yet He died for those and that includes the sin of homosexuality. They may suffer consequences and be taken to the woodshed but if they truly accepted Christ as their savior, they are saved (though as by fire) When , at the end, they are called to be judged at the Great White Throne what does the Bible say they will be judged for ? Sins? NO, they will be judged on their works (which of course "as filthy rags" to God. That is human works or human good.
30 posted on 11/30/2012 12:30:11 PM PST by fish hawk (no tyrant can remain in power without the consent and cooperation of his victims.)
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To: Coleus

I thought the Bible says that Man should not lay with man???


31 posted on 11/30/2012 12:30:40 PM PST by tallyhoe
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To: bmwcyle
Ever since that farce of a debate in 2008 between McCain & Obama........Warren was off my list of people to respect. He is no true spiritual leader.
32 posted on 11/30/2012 12:30:54 PM PST by annieokie
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To: bramps
"“It’s not illegal to love somebody,” Warren replied. “But you think it’s a sin,” Hill asserted. “No, it’s not a sin to love somebody,” Warren said. “It might be a sin to have sex with them,” he added. “It might be.”

it might be a sin? Is he for real?

33 posted on 11/30/2012 12:31:47 PM PST by dragonblustar (Allah Ain't So Akbar!)
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To: Coleus; mickie; flaglady47
Rick Warren is the Bill O'Reilly of mega-church evangelicals.........

"Barack Obama is not a socialist.....but he may be."

Leni

34 posted on 11/30/2012 12:32:46 PM PST by MinuteGal (Please Restore Former Format on FR "Latest Posts" Page ASAP !)
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The Bible is pretty clear. A 'saved' person is not going to be 'living' and embracing sin. He may stumble, but he'll be disgusted about his temporary fall and turn to the Lord in repentance.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of God is not for those that embrace sin... We are all sinners, but Thank God for verse 11:

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

We were sinners (all of us), but Thank God that He can clean us by His spirit, and break us from the bondage of Satan.

1 John 3:8-9 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

'Sin' in this case means living and walking in sin, not the occasional (and presumably the more, and more, infrequent) stumble.
False preacher, and apparent snake in the grass Rick Warren, preaches a lie, while encouraging the people snared in sin to remain in these chains. It is the opposite of 'love' to encourage someone to march off into hell.

35 posted on 11/30/2012 12:34:43 PM PST by El Cid (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house...)
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To: Coleus
Warren has trod a strange road from a hellfire and brimstone Remonstrant ("it's is up to YOU to save one more for Jesus") to a crypto-universalist. Oddly enough he appears to hold both views simultaneously. Or at least he still sells "The Purpose-Driven Life" unedited while caucusing with perverts and musing about salvation for the unrepentant.

He's either starkers or playing footsies with heresy. Or both.

36 posted on 11/30/2012 12:35:01 PM PST by jboot (This isn't your father's America. Stay safe and keep your powder dry.)
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To: Coleus

I am very disappointed in these comments. There is this great desire in evangelical circles to appear loving and welcoming to all. This I agree with. I think we can show love to all sinners (like me).

However, I am increasingly alarmed that the church is shrinking back from the Word of God by deliberately blurring the line of what constitutes sin. As a result, the church has lost its saltiness and is largely become impotent.

The church has lost it’s power in large measure because we try to tell people that whatever they’re doing isn’t really sin... but they need salvation. Why does anyone need salvation if what they are doing isn’t wrong, or may not be wrong “for them”?

We are on very dangerous ground here and evangelical leadership talk like this greatly serves to demoralize and confuse the average Christian. After all, why should I stand alone im my community of friends and call homosexuality sin if evangelical “leaders” publicly state that homosexuality is okay, contrary to I Corinthians?

Having said that, I have no problem working with AIDS groups or with those who practice homosexuality any more than I would have a problem working with the guy who is living with his girlfriend. But in either case the behavior is sinful and anyone who is a Christ follower cannot abide both in Christ and in a lifestyle of sin.


37 posted on 11/30/2012 12:35:16 PM PST by Obadiah (How do you know that the light at the end of the tunnel isn't a muzzle flash?)
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The Place for Conservatives

Thank you all very much!!
Woo hoo!! And we’re now over 98%!! Less than $1.7k to go!! We can do this.
Let's put this baby to bed!!

38 posted on 11/30/2012 12:35:27 PM PST by RedMDer (Please support Toys for Tots this CHRISTmas season.)
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To: Coleus

I didn’t get the point about fat preachers. Does the Bible say that fat people will go to hell?


39 posted on 11/30/2012 12:35:48 PM PST by Verginius Rufus
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To: MrB

Where in that quote does he refer to homosexuals? It’s a sin for an unmarried man and woman to have sex also. Why could he not be referring to that?

You clean the freaking carpet and take a reading comprehension course while you’re at it.


40 posted on 11/30/2012 12:36:00 PM PST by bramps (Sarah Palin got more votes in 2008 than Romney did in 2012)
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To: Coleus

Kewl...I can join his church...start banging his wife and not really worry if I was comitting sin.

Same thing right ?


41 posted on 11/30/2012 12:36:56 PM PST by Popman
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To: Coleus

TV image has misguided many a good man to be a fence sitter, he had better review the Bible’s stance on tepid water.

It is sinful just as adultery, stealing, murder etc...

All this I get from my wife:
My wife has a middle aged acquaintance that is a homosexual. He was raised in a Christian home. I don’t know what event(s) made him turn. He lives with his partner (they are very successful) and has vowed to never have children, raise any, nor does he and his flaunt their life style in public (no pda), on the contrary he bemoans all the queers on tv and the jumping up and down they do. He never talks outside his two or three friends about his life.

He has never asked for “marriage” rights only to be able to spend his life as he wants and has indicated “marriage rights for homos are stupid”. He also talked to being a believer and very fearful of God’s wrath for his chosen lifestyle (his words not mine), but says he cannot turn away from it (I do not know his reasoning). A nicer, gentler person you could not meet.

I cannot help but pray for him that he does believe and will turn away from his sin, but he is a sinner just like the rest of us and is depraved like the rest of us and upon his death will be freed from his sin and go to be with the Lord if he truly believes. Only he and the Lord know if he does.

In the end it is all about faith not what men think will get them in.


42 posted on 11/30/2012 12:38:22 PM PST by Resolute Conservative
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To: Coleus

Saddleback church? Maybe ol Rick has had some ‘brokeback’ experience that influences his perspective.


43 posted on 11/30/2012 12:38:35 PM PST by plain talk
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To: jdege
"Rather, why don't we try to understand that everyone is a sinner?"

Of course we're all sinners, but homosexuality is the only sin that denies BEING one. I don't see adulterers, liars, thieves, and murderers running around, demanding that their sins be fawned upon and pronounced normal and right.

44 posted on 11/30/2012 12:39:20 PM PST by CatherineofAragon (Support Christian white males---the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization)
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To: Coleus

The Lubricant-Driven Life


45 posted on 11/30/2012 12:40:19 PM PST by Jeff Chandler (www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAOwJvTOio)
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To: dragonblustar

see post 40


46 posted on 11/30/2012 12:40:26 PM PST by bramps (Sarah Palin got more votes in 2008 than Romney did in 2012)
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To: bramps; luckystarmom

re: “Or, different readings of the Bible,” Hill injected. “Or different readings — that’s very true,” Warren agreed. Later during the interview, when Hill asked Warren if he believes homosexuals will go to Hell, he replied that they will not. “No, not because they’re gay,” he said. “We go to Hell because we choose to reject the grace of God.” When Hill asked what happens to a homosexual that accepts Jesus, Warren responded enthusiastically. “He’s going to Heaven!” he declared. “Without a doubt.”

Here is the quote from the article that is creating the problem:

“When Hill asked what happens to a homosexual that accepts Jesus, Warren responded enthusiastically. “He’s going to Heaven!” he declared. “Without a doubt.”

If you take what Warren said, without qualifying that a homosexual/lesbian must stop practicing homosexuality, then it can sound like he’s saying that a practicing homosexual, if he/she accepts Christ as their Savior, will go to Heaven.

On the other hand, it is possible that Warren implied that the homosexual who turns to Christ must stop living that life of sin - but what is reported in the article does not do that. So, one could be left with the impression that as long as a homosexual accepts Christ as Savior, no lifestyle change is necessary and that person will go to Heaven.

Warren needs to explain what he meant by his last statement.


47 posted on 11/30/2012 12:41:16 PM PST by rusty schucklefurd
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To: bramps

So, we’re to not consider the context in this mysterious and superior “reading comprehension” that you’re referring to?

Are you seriously trying to defend Rick Warren on this?

Or are you in awe of his ability to _technically_ not answer the question yet appear to?


48 posted on 11/30/2012 12:41:22 PM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: MrB

He’s separating attraction from action, and saying that being attracted to same sex is far different from having sex with the same sex.

Just as a man might be attracted to a woman who is not his wife, but that isn’t a sin. The sin is when he acts on that attraction, and has sex with a woman who is not his wife.

Similarly, one might also be tempted to steal, lie, cheat, or even kill,but not take the step to act on that.


49 posted on 11/30/2012 12:42:51 PM PST by Burkean (.)
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To: luckystarmom
When Hill asked what happens to a homosexual that accepts Jesus, Warren responded enthusiastically. “He’s going to Heaven!” he declared. “Without a doubt.”

Scripture tells us to repent and believe and we will be saved. Warren's quote describes belief without repentance. The demons also believe, and tremble.

50 posted on 11/30/2012 12:43:20 PM PST by jboot (This isn't your father's America. Stay safe and keep your powder dry.)
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