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The Real Root of Atheists' Anti-Christmas Rage
Townhall.com ^ | December 2, 2012 | Doug Giles

Posted on 12/02/2012 3:18:49 AM PST by Kaslin

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To: Notary Sojac; A_perfect_lady; Jack Chance
I'm pro-America, pro-life, and pro-liberty and I've been an atheist all my days.

And you are welcome to believe as you choose. I'll never insult your faith and never have.

I don't have a problem with a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn, either. In Jefferson's great phrase, "It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg".

I love that Jefferson quote as it sums up what we should all hold dear when it comes to religion, our religion, the religion of others and the rights of non-believers.

While I am for all intense purposes an atheist as I do not believe in a supernatural supreme being or in supernatural beings or in the supernatural world period, I usually refrain from calling myself an Atheist, preferring something like “non-believer” or “non-religious” or simply a “rationalist” because of the few Atheists who make complete asses of themselves, especially at this time of year, those who have no idea of what religious freedom really means.

Like you, I'm pro-America, pro-life, and pro-liberty and I've been an atheist nearly all my days and I have absolutely no problem with public Nativity scenes or calling the big brightly lit pine tree in the town square exactly what it should be called – a Christmas Tree and not a “Holiday” or “Seasonal” or “Winter” or “Festive” tree. Unless I know for sure that someone is Jewish or of some other non-Christian faith, I wish people a Merry Christmas (I have no problem BTW wishing my Jewish friends a blessed Hanukkah, my Hindu friends a joyous Deepavali (Festival of Lights), etc.) but I have no problem with my Christian friends and family or complete strangers wishing me a Merry Christmas. My Jewish and Hindu friends wish me a Merry Christmas BTW and I appreciate that.

While I may not believe in a personal supernatural supreme being and savior, I consider myself a “Cultural Christian” as it is the culture of my forbearers and a big part of the predominate culture of the country that I love.

And I love Christmas. I love the story of the Nativity, I love the music (including traditional and ancient religious carols along with the more secular Christmas songs), the lights, the decorations, the food and most of all the spirit of giving and of charity. I love sharing with my niece and nephew and now their little children our family traditions and recipes; some of the PA German/Dutch and Welsh traditions originating from my mother’s side of the family and some of the traditions from my Norwegian born father’s side of the family along with the American traditions from my childhood. For instance, it’s been a long standing tradition that “Christmas” doesn’t officially start in our family until the “real” Santa makes his appearance at the end of the Macy’s parade on Thanksgiving. I always watch A Charlie Brown Christmas and get choked up at the end when Linus explains the real meaning of Christmas every single time just as I do when the Grinch’s heart grows and I watch the 1951 movie version of A Christmas Carol every Christmas Eve. I love baking Christmas cookies and giving them out, I put a Christmas wreath on my front door and put up a Christmas Tree decorated with family heirloom hand blown glass Christmas ornaments, a few of which came over to America with my mother’s great-grandparents from Germany in the mid-1800’s.

The only other holiday that gets me as teary eyed and feeling all warm and fuzzy inside is The 4th of July.

I tend to think that there are a good number of us “non-believers”, a good many of us conservatives like you and me and others here. The militant Athiests are more akin to Communists IMO. Unfortunately they are loud and militant and angry, were as most of the rest of us are a silent majority among non-believers who are simply content to live and let live. So the “believers” don’t hear from us as we don’t find it necessary to say otherwise, to question or insult their faith or stand in their way in practicing it or among those of us who have not abandoned the traditions of Christmas.

51 posted on 12/02/2012 4:16:40 PM PST by MD Expat in PA
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To: Notary Sojac
But when anyone says I can't be a conservative because I am not a Christian, that ticks me off big time and I will respond, sometimes (despite my best efforts) in anger.

I have one question -How does one truly defend and uphold inalienable rights endowed us by the Creator when one does not consider the Creator to exist?

In my opinion -this belief and acknowledgment of the Creator in context with the people and the role of government is truly what separates America and our form of government from all the others.

52 posted on 12/02/2012 5:27:49 PM PST by DBeers (†)
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To: MD Expat in PA

Remember the old phrase “Give credit where credit is due”? Celebrating Christmas without a belief in the Savior is what I would call “eating the seed corn.” There is nothing contributed to the next generation. To continue Christmas, you have believe in the real meaning of Christmas, otherwise it will become a silly secular annual event used by commercial interests and eventually die out.


53 posted on 12/02/2012 6:19:34 PM PST by firebrand
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To: MD Expat in PA

We celebrate Christmas because Christ was born. Without that, you are missing the point. It’s not just a cozy, picturesque time of year, with special music and food. He became one of us and lived among us, an unfathomable mystery and miracle—and just what we needed, although few people knew it at the time.


54 posted on 12/02/2012 6:25:15 PM PST by firebrand
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To: firebrand
Perhaps you are bothered by the idea of atheists who are happy and contented at this time of year??

I don't "rage" at Christmas in the slightest, nor do I feel in the least upset that all these beautiful traditions are, at the core, based upon an event in which I do not believe.

55 posted on 12/02/2012 7:11:25 PM PST by Notary Sojac (Only liberals believe that people can be made virtuous via legislative enactment.)
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To: Notary Sojac

You think I am an example of that slander against Puritans, that they fear someone somewhere might be having a good time?

Actually, I am the mad defender of atheists’ rights, on FR and in a pro-life group that I belong to where everyone keeps wanting to start with a prayer. Not only do we have different religions in the group, who often don’t appreciate others’ prayers or methods of prayer, we also have one atheist, and I insist in the face of much pious disapproval that we do not begin or end with a prayer out of respect for his beliefs.

Athesists must have their freedom, uncoerced in any way whatsoever to participate in religious observances. If they don’t have that complete freedom, they will not easily be able to choose the religion they want, if they should ever reconsider. The only true beliefs are those freely chosen.

I guess you have never witnessed the s-storms of outrage when I express these views on FR.

I guess I’ll go try to find some atheist having fun at Christmas and go jump on their Chritmas wreath. “ )


56 posted on 12/02/2012 9:56:05 PM PST by firebrand
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To: Notary Sojac
But when anyone says I can't be a conservative because I am not a Christian

what faith were you born to or of your ancestors?

i have found in my life that most atheists are Jewish born ..in fact most Jews I know do not really believe in their creed much but they cling to the identity/history/sense of belonging by blood and most agnostics were Catholic born and christened

lapsed Southern baptists and Pentecostals while do occur are less common...rare is one who will profess atheism....usually they will parse it like...I'm a believer but I don;t go to church or I believe how I want to believe ...or I hate organized religion, or church is full of hypocrites...it is...we all are to some degree but that is our fault not God's

however...few die atheists...not from what my oncologist friend says...wonderers maybe but deniers are quite rare

however...you can be conservative...even socially and not be Christian or serious Jewish

not many but some

I'm a Christian...southern..old school...I've never forgotten it even when i was bad...and I mean...like really bad...worse than 99.9% here ever dreamed of

but I never forgot God or my culture

wish the best...I hope you find a route to live outside yourself...kids maybe?

I do think you ought to ponder where this goodness you sense in your intellect that drives your thoughtfulness gegarding behavior comes from? parents maybe?...but where did they ge it?

some is innate...like toddlers know stomping puppies is bad

questions men pondered from the first fireside where one could repose...without immediate fear of death

57 posted on 12/02/2012 10:10:29 PM PST by wardaddy (wanna know how my kin felt during Reconstruction in Mississippi, you fixin to find out firsthand)
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To: firebrand

Well put, and you have my apology.


58 posted on 12/03/2012 4:49:02 AM PST by Notary Sojac (Only liberals believe that people can be made virtuous via legislative enactment.)
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To: DBeers
How does one truly defend and uphold inalienable rights endowed us by the Creator

You are of course referring to the one mention of a creator in our founding documents. In my opinion, Jefferson was looking for a way to de-legitimize the authority of the British crown over the colonies, and he hit upon this construction. (Not that it would have made much difference if we had lost the war).

It's also interesting that the British state, made up of people who were nearly all believers in a traditional, trinitarian Christianity based on an inerrant Bible, were opposed to a loose association of colonial leaders - some clearly deists and others with their own freelanced views of God and the Bible - and God, if he indeed took a side, was apparently on the latter.

Which leads to another question. If God wants people to be free citizens, and if He intends them to have inalienable rights which no state can extinguish, why did nations based on that "endowment" not come into being with the start of the Christian era? What was it about the founding generations of Americans that made them different, not just from all other nations but from all preceding Christian nations??

59 posted on 12/03/2012 5:03:20 AM PST by Notary Sojac (Only liberals believe that people can be made virtuous via legislative enactment.)
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To: firebrand
After all, giving up atheism would mean you’d have to change your life in a very big, deep, meaningful way.

OK, I'm going to challenge you about that.

Suppose you were able to follow me around today in my daily routine with work and family.

And suppose that next week I were to give up atheism.

If you were to follow me around on a Monday sometime next month, what do you think you would observe about how my life had changed??

60 posted on 12/03/2012 5:10:13 AM PST by Notary Sojac (Only liberals believe that people can be made virtuous via legislative enactment.)
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To: wardaddy

I was raised in a household with no religious belief. My parents however were not hostile to any religious faith or to its members. (In other words, they were not rabble-rousing atheists).


61 posted on 12/03/2012 5:13:03 AM PST by Notary Sojac (Only liberals believe that people can be made virtuous via legislative enactment.)
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To: Notary Sojac

I don’t knowanyone who has no religious doctrine in their background somewhere.

Your grandparents?...were both your folks adopted?

pure atheism just 40-50 years ago was very very rare

someone somewhere dropped the ball of either Christianity or Judaism is my guess..or maybe both

but that is fine..as long as you are not on the offense against my traditions I am glad to have you and yes i do think you can be conservative wihtout being Christian

in fact...socially speaking..several non Christian religion practitioners should be socially conservative if they adhere to teachings including the big boogie bear religion

which brings up a point doesn’t it?

why did Muslims here vote 95% (like tropical africans) for Obama and his pro gay and pro abortion crap?

because identity as a “minority” trumps everything ...for any minority today...well..maybe not Vietnamese but who’s counting


62 posted on 12/03/2012 7:02:00 AM PST by wardaddy (wanna know how my kin felt during Reconstruction in Mississippi, you fixin to find out firsthand)
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To: Notary Sojac

If you were to give your whole heart and soul to Jesus, believe me I would notice the change having seen you before and after.

We become totally obnoxious. We can’t wait to tell everyone about it. We’re wide-eyed and . . . well, we’re just different. Then we start growing up in our new role.

I should apologize too, because when I said you would have to change your life, I was thinking of the habitual sinners that I know, and I don’t know you at all. So maybe your behavior would remain the same in terms of morals.


63 posted on 12/03/2012 7:32:43 AM PST by firebrand
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To: firebrand
firebrand, your original comment was "gave up atheism" not "give your heart to Jesus".

There are many other options out there.....and billions who are neither atheist nor Christian.

I should apologize too

I appreciate that. There are some Christians here who appear to think that the only reason atheists don't immediately convert is that we would have to stop smoking rock, diddling cub scouts, and knocking over convenience stores. I am glad to see you are not of that company.

64 posted on 12/03/2012 9:21:40 AM PST by Notary Sojac (Only liberals believe that people can be made virtuous via legislative enactment.)
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To: Notary Sojac
You are of course referring to the one mention of a creator in our founding documents. In my opinion, Jefferson was looking for a way to de-legitimize the authority of the British crown over the colonies, and he hit upon this construction. (Not that it would have made much difference if we had lost the war).

One mention is all it takes. You seem to attempt to de-legitimize a nation and its history by de-legitimizing a moment and a man. Jefferson was but one of many men

It's also interesting that the British state, made up of people who were nearly all believers in a traditional, trinitarian Christianity based on an inerrant Bible, were opposed to a loose association of colonial leaders - some clearly deists and others with their own freelanced views of God and the Bible - and God, if he indeed took a side, was apparently on the latter.

God did not take our side -we took His.

Leftists often claim that America is not a Christian nation -more precisely, America is not a nation that recognizes God and His authority and or that God is not premise in our founding. This effort because the leftists consider the State supreme and God and His laws get in the way of tyranny for Utopia efforts.

One method used by the left is to claim that some founders were Deists, Unitarians, etcetera...

Well, the leftists make a distinction without a difference.

Unitarianism is a Christian theological movement, named for its understanding of God as one person, in direct contrast to Trinitarianism which defines God as three persons.

Deism is the belief that reason & observation of the natural world are sufficient to determine the existence of a creator.

Regardless the whining and gnashing of teeth from the leftists who attempt to argue terms rather than substance -it seems self evident and I would say that all the founders apparently believed in the Creator. The One that endowed all human beings with inalienable rights and the human experience with absolute truths --those that the left implies are endowed, defined, and modified by the government du jour as elected by the mob du jour.

Which leads to another question. If God wants people to be free citizens, and if He intends them to have inalienable rights which no state can extinguish, why did nations based on that "endowment" not come into being with the start of the Christian era? What was it about the founding generations of Americans that made them different, not just from all other nations but from all preceding Christian nations??

Free will can lead to good or bad.

People of faith willing to shed blood for what they believed in was what got us here. We are right NOT because God is on our side but because we are on the side of God -at least we were very much so in the beginning...

65 posted on 12/04/2012 7:41:53 PM PST by DBeers (†)
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To: DBeers
Was the United States founded by men who expressed belief in God?

You'll get no argument from me that this is true. It was a rare person who admitted to atheism or agnosticism in the 18th century.

Was the United States founded by men who believed in the Christian God, revealed in an inerrant Bible as a triune Godhead?

In our founding public documents, there is no evidence of this, and in their private correspondence, the evidence is mixed.

66 posted on 12/05/2012 4:08:12 AM PST by Notary Sojac (Only liberals believe that people can be made virtuous via legislative enactment.)
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To: DBeers
The Founding Fathers were brilliant men. They spent months and months working on the Constitution. They were very, very careful about what they wrote, discussing and debating every passage at great length. It seems to me that if they had intended this to be a Christian nation they would have said so somewhere in the Constitution. The Founding Fathers had no reason to be vague. There was no ACLU, no 'Activist judges.' If they had wanted a Christian Nation they could have written:

God Almighty, in Order to form a true Christian Nation, establish Divine Justice, insure adherence to His Laws, provide for the defense of His Church, promote His Word, and secure His Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, has led us to ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Instead they wrote:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

-James Huber

67 posted on 12/05/2012 7:30:47 AM PST by Notary Sojac (Only liberals believe that people can be made virtuous via legislative enactment.)
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To: Notary Sojac
The Founding Fathers were brilliant men. They spent months and months working on the Constitution. They were very, very careful about what they wrote, discussing and debating every passage at great length. It seems to me that if they had intended this to be a Christian nation they would have said so somewhere in the Constitution. The Founding Fathers had no reason to be vague. There was no ACLU, no 'Activist judges.' If they had wanted a Christian Nation they could have written.

The author is tilting at windmills. One could say he employs a straw man argument -much like the leftists. The Constitution limits government and as such where exactly does it state that America is NOT a Christian Nation? Where does it state that government can censor religion and or impose rules to prevent a Christian Nation? The government is NOT the Nation.

Referencing my quote below -clearly the US was founded premised upon a belief and acknowledgment in the Creator regardless any leftist arguments to the contrary:

Leftists often claim that America is not a Christian nation -more precisely, America is not a nation that recognizes God and His authority and or that God is not premise in our founding. This effort because the leftists consider the State supreme and God and His laws get in the way of tyranny for Utopia efforts.

68 posted on 12/05/2012 7:38:52 PM PST by DBeers (†)
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