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The Monster of Monticello (NYT on Jefferson)
New York Times ^ | November 30, 2012 | Paul Finkelman

Posted on 12/02/2012 2:05:32 PM PST by nickcarraway

THOMAS JEFFERSON is in the news again, nearly 200 years after his death — alongside a high-profile biography by the journalist Jon Meacham comes a damning portrait of the third president by the independent scholar Henry Wiencek.

We are endlessly fascinated with Jefferson, in part because we seem unable to reconcile the rhetoric of liberty in his writing with the reality of his slave owning and his lifetime support for slavery. Time and again, we play down the latter in favor of the former, or write off the paradox as somehow indicative of his complex depths.

Neither Mr. Meacham, who mostly ignores Jefferson’s slave ownership, nor Mr. Wiencek, who sees him as a sort of fallen angel who comes to slavery only after discovering how profitable it could be, seem willing to confront the ugly truth: the third president was a creepy, brutal hypocrite.

Contrary to Mr. Wiencek’s depiction, Jefferson was always deeply committed to slavery, and even more deeply hostile to the welfare of blacks, slave or free. His proslavery views were shaped not only by money and status but also by his deeply racist views, which he tried to justify through pseudoscience.

There is, it is true, a compelling paradox about Jefferson: when he wrote the Declaration of Independence, announcing the “self-evident” truth that all men are “created equal,” he owned some 175 slaves. Too often, scholars and readers use those facts as a crutch, to write off Jefferson’s inconvenient views as products of the time and the complexities of the human condition.

But while many of his contemporaries, including George Washington, freed their slaves during and after the revolution — inspired, perhaps, by the words of the Declaration — Jefferson did not. Over the subsequent 50 years, a period of extraordinary public service, Jefferson remained the master

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Extended News; Government; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: founders; jefferson; presidents; virginia
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-68 next last

1 posted on 12/02/2012 2:05:34 PM PST by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway

So his writings about slavery being an abomination and his inclusion of abolition in the original drafts of the Declaration of Independence, fit in how, exactly?


2 posted on 12/02/2012 2:11:18 PM PST by cumbo78
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To: nickcarraway
We have arrived at the "next phase" of the "takeover".

Heretofore, the left was content to ignore our history and the founding fathers.

Now, in the interest of the Communist agenda, it has become necessary to demean and degrade them.

This is pure propaganda...of the worst kind.

3 posted on 12/02/2012 2:15:33 PM PST by okie01 (THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA; Ignorance on parade.)
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To: cumbo78

Jefferson was a bit of a screwball.


4 posted on 12/02/2012 2:16:14 PM PST by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both)
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To: BenLurkin

I respect Jefferson’s intellect, but I lost some respect for how he and Madison screwed over George Washington & to a lesser extent Hamilton.


5 posted on 12/02/2012 2:18:53 PM PST by LongWayHome
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To: nickcarraway

how about come to the conclusion that for a lot of people at the time, owning a slave was not a big deal and not worth much thought??

slavery existed everywhere and all through history after all


6 posted on 12/02/2012 2:19:05 PM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: GeronL
slavery existed everywhere and all through history after all

Including December 2012. Less in this hemisphere than in another.

/johnny

7 posted on 12/02/2012 2:22:09 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: okie01

You are onto something there, that is exactly the next shoe to fall in the race to dismantle our history. I guess they looked at Rushmore and figured it would be easist to replace Jefferson with the IWON.

I have said he belongs on Mt. Rushmore, in a 747 going about 650MPH would be just about right.


8 posted on 12/02/2012 2:26:15 PM PST by Mouton (Voting is an opiate of the electorate. Nothing changes no matter who wins..)
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To: Mouton

There is great danger in judging historical figures by today’s “moral” standards.


9 posted on 12/02/2012 2:28:41 PM PST by cumbo78
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To: nickcarraway

“Monster”

Even half-wits would be embarrassed to be seen with a copy of the NYT.


10 posted on 12/02/2012 2:31:23 PM PST by Psycho_Bunny (Thought Puzzle: Describe Islam without using the phrase "mental disorder" more than four times.)
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To: nickcarraway

CBS Sunday Morning did a piece today that took him apart pretty good. Usually we go through this when the powers that be need us to think our current feckless leaders are no worse than Tom and the gang. Probably cliff or total collapse related.


11 posted on 12/02/2012 2:32:09 PM PST by John W (Viva Cristo Rey!)
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To: Mouton
You are onto something there, that is exactly the next shoe to fall in the race to dismantle our history.

I've no doubt that the next four years will see a "blitz" effort to degrade and demean our history.

These people are playing for real...they are close to winning it all...and they will expend everything in an effort to kill capitalism and liberty for all time.

This is war. It is for blood -- for the nation's soul.

12 posted on 12/02/2012 2:32:29 PM PST by okie01 (THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA; Ignorance on parade.)
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To: nickcarraway

Given current circumstances, I would volunteer to be a slave for Jefferson right now, if he and the ideals he believed in were still alive.


13 posted on 12/02/2012 2:41:08 PM PST by elkfersupper ( Member of the Original Defiant Class)
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To: nickcarraway
a creepy, brutal hypocrite.

Will it take 200 years to find that out about Hussein?

14 posted on 12/02/2012 2:41:39 PM PST by Libloather (The epitome of civility.)
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To: nickcarraway
And yet the NYT considers Robert Byrd to be "a pillar of the senate."

Robert C. Byrd, a Pillar of the Senate, Dies at 92

15 posted on 12/02/2012 2:43:23 PM PST by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: Libloather

Exactly. History will not be favorable to Dear Leader. Jefferson was born into a world of slavery. Few people have ever achieved enlightenment from the worldview that they were born into. Jefferson struggled like we struggle today. How many people currently receiving social security checks are railing against the government for getting involved in the retirement business?

The country needs an enema.


16 posted on 12/02/2012 2:47:06 PM PST by HMS Surprise (Chris Christie can STILL go straight to hell.)
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To: cumbo78

If the Sulzbergers and their spawn are so skilled at judging the 18th Century American forefathers you’d think they might be able to turn their time telescope around and examine present-day Muslim scum from the vantage of, say, Upper Silesia in 1942.


17 posted on 12/02/2012 2:56:06 PM PST by Fightin Whitey
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To: nickcarraway

Is he saying that Ken Howard lied to me in “1776”? He lied in song??


18 posted on 12/02/2012 2:56:48 PM PST by Tanniker Smith (Rome didn't fall in a day, either.)
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To: nickcarraway

Picked up the book to see what it was in it. Scanning the index, there is no mention of separation of church and state, nor nullification, nor necessity of revolution.

Didn’t waste my money on such an obviously flawed and incomplete book.


19 posted on 12/02/2012 2:59:49 PM PST by NTHockey (Rules of engagement #1: Take no prisoners)
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To: HMS Surprise

An enema and a big ol’ shot of penicillin too...


20 posted on 12/02/2012 3:06:38 PM PST by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
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To: cumbo78

There seems to be a disparity in history and what is being said here.


21 posted on 12/02/2012 3:08:09 PM PST by maxwellsmart_agent
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To: LongWayHome

“I respect Jefferson’s intellect, but I lost some respect for how he and Madison screwed over George Washington & to a lesser extent Hamilton.”

You are correct, Sir.


22 posted on 12/02/2012 3:18:05 PM PST by Captain Jack Aubrey (There's not a moment to lose.)
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To: nickcarraway
If it shows up in the New York Times, the odds are at least 99:1 it contains a few half-truths and irrelevant facts and a great deal of totalitarian propaganda.
23 posted on 12/02/2012 3:18:28 PM PST by Standing Wolf
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To: nickcarraway
"Independent scholar Henry Wiencek" is a trust fund 70's Yalie lit-crit psychopath who couldn't even keep a job at TIME doing scut copy-editing. Just the guy I'd want to be analyzing the pantheon of American Founders.
24 posted on 12/02/2012 3:21:57 PM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: nickcarraway
My daughter came home from school with this Jerrerson nonsense, curiously coincident with the NYT review, so we read Jefferson's concise autobiography at dinner (when I have a captive audience). The NYT and the two authors have an unsurprising reluctance to refer to original sources. Of course they would claim that Jefferson cannot be trusted to tell about his own life because he has a vested interest.

Jefferson was voted to the Virginia legislature right out of his law studies with George Wythe in 1769. His first act in 1769-70 was to propose emancipation of Virginia's slaves. But rewriting history, and then burning the old books is the tradition of the left. Then they can claim whatever suits them and there is no contravening history to contend with.

25 posted on 12/02/2012 3:27:22 PM PST by Spaulding
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To: GeronL

Most slaves throughout history were white people.


26 posted on 12/02/2012 3:29:55 PM PST by NKP_Vet
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To: Spaulding

They would take that which we hold spotless and shinning
up for the world to see, and make it tarnished and dull
to be hidden and put away for all time.

The sad thing is, it works.


27 posted on 12/02/2012 3:31:42 PM PST by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: okie01
We have arrived at the "next phase" of the "takeover". Heretofore, the left was content to ignore our history and the founding fathers.

Agreed.

Next up is how George Washington married his wealth like John Kerry did.

-PJ

28 posted on 12/02/2012 3:32:46 PM PST by Political Junkie Too (If you are the Posterity of We the People, then you are a Natural Born Citizen.)
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To: NKP_Vet

yep. I want my reparations!


29 posted on 12/02/2012 3:36:24 PM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: Captain Jack Aubrey

I’m not excusing this modern day attack on Jefferson by our current elites.....folks posting here know what they are trying to do to our history & have stated so....but like you, I suspect, I’m none to pleased how things went down between Jefferson & Washington in the end.


30 posted on 12/02/2012 3:36:37 PM PST by LongWayHome
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To: nickcarraway

Of course he’s a monster....he stood in the way of central Federal Power.

That the NYT is so obviously still afraid of his mind is a testament to how right he was.


31 posted on 12/02/2012 3:36:36 PM PST by mo (If you understand, no explanation is needed. If you don't understand, no explanation is possible.)
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To: HMS Surprise

Not a day went by LBJ didn’t refer to blacks by the N word.
He was your typical southern politician who grew up using this word like all southerners used it, and as blacks still use it, and as most Americans still use it behind closed doors. And it was not meant to demean anyone. The Jesse Jackson race baiters of the world and the white liberals put the word on the same level as commiting murder. There is nothing further from the truth. Open up a copy of the American classic “Huckleberry Finn” to see how the word was used in American history. Oh, but I forget, it was such a bad word that most liberals have gotten the word edited out of the great American classic. The word negro means black.
How many clueless liberals even realize that. Try calling a black person a negro now and you’ll be charged with a hate crime.


32 posted on 12/02/2012 3:41:13 PM PST by NKP_Vet
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To: nickcarraway

This, from the newspaper that supported and spoke highly of both Hitler and Stalin, is no surprise.


33 posted on 12/02/2012 3:44:50 PM PST by combat_boots (The Lion of Judah cometh. Hallelujah. Gloria Patri, Filio et Spiritui Sancto!)
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To: nickcarraway

I just posted some prescient TJ quotes on another thread. They fit here, as well!

***********

Thomas Jefferson (1743–1826, 3rd POTUS, ) .Jefferson will always be celebrated for articulating the American national creed, the fundamental and universal principles of self-government that he set forth in the Declaration of Independence.

A few quotes:

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now.

To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father’s has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association—the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.

I think myself that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious. (Back then!)

Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want bread.

God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty.... And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure

He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.

To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

It is better to tolerate that rare instance of a parent’s refusing to let his child be educated, than to shock the common feelings by a forcible transportation and education of the infant against the will of his father.

... and finally:

I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just.


34 posted on 12/02/2012 3:45:17 PM PST by WVKayaker ("Hang in there, America. Fight for what is right." - Sarah Palin 11/7/12)
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To: nickcarraway
Thomas Jefferson and Slavery

Monticello.org

Thomas Jefferson was a consistent opponent of slavery his whole life. Calling it a “moral depravity” and a “hideous blot,” he believed that slavery presented the greatest threat to the survival of the new American nation. Jefferson also thought that slavery was contrary to the laws of nature, which decreed that everyone had a right to personal liberty. These views were radical in a world where unfree labor was the norm.

At the time of the American Revolution, Jefferson was actively involved in legislation that he hoped would result in slavery’s abolition. In 1778, he drafted a Virginia law that prohibited the importation of enslaved Africans. In 1784, he proposed an ordinance that would ban slavery in the Northwest territories. But Jefferson always maintained that the decision to emancipate slaves would have to be part of a democratic process; abolition would be stymied until slaveowners consented to free their human property together in a large-scale act of emancipation. To Jefferson, it was anti-democratic and contrary to the principles of the American Revolution for the federal government to enact abolition or for only a few planters to free their slaves.

Although Jefferson continued to advocate for abolition, the reality was that slavery was only becoming more entrenched. The slave population in Virginia skyrocketed from 292,627 in 1790 to 469,757 in 1830. Jefferson had assumed that the abolition of the slave trade would weaken slavery and hasten its end. Instead, slavery only became more widespread and profitable. To try to erode Virginians’ support for slavery, he discouraged the cultivation of crops heavily dependent on slave labor—tobacco—and encouraged the introduction of crops that needed little or no slave labor—wheat, sugar maples, short-grained rice, olive trees, and wine grapes. But by the 1800s, Virginia’s most valuable commodity and export was neither crops nor land, but slaves.

Jefferson’s belief in the necessity of ending slavery never changed. From the mid-1770s until his death, he advocated the same plan of gradual emancipation. First, the transatlantic slave trade would be abolished. Second, slaveowners would “improve” slavery’s most violent features, by bettering (Jefferson used the term “ameliorating”) living conditions and moderating physical punishment. Third, all born into slavery after a certain date would be declared free, followed by total abolition. Like others of his day, he supported the removal of newly freed slaves from the United States. The unintended effect of Jefferson’s plan was that his goal of “improving” slavery as a step towards ending it was used as an argument for its perpetuation. Pro-slavery advocates after Jefferson’s death argued that if slavery could be “improved,” abolition was unnecessary.

Jefferson’s belief in the necessity of abolition was intertwined with his racial beliefs. He thought that white Americans and enslaved blacks constituted two “separate nations” who could not live together peacefully in the same country. Jefferson’s belief that blacks were racially inferior and “as incapable as children,” coupled with slaves’ presumed resentment of their former owners, made their removal from the United States an integral part of Jefferson’s emancipation scheme. Influenced by the Haitian Revolution and an aborted rebellion in Virginia in 1800, Jefferson believed that American slaves’ deportation—whether to Africa or the West Indies—was an essential consequence of emancipation.

Jefferson wrote that slavery was like holding “a wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go.” He thought that his cherished federal union, the world’s first democratic experiment, would be destroyed by slavery. To emancipate slaves on American soil, Jefferson thought, would result in a large-scale race war that would be as brutal and deadly as the slave revolt in Haiti in 1791. But he also believed that to keep slaves in bondage, with part of America in favor of abolition and part of America in favor of perpetuating slavery, could only result in a civil war that would destroy the union. Jefferson’s latter prediction was correct: in 1861, the contest over slavery sparked a bloody civil war and the creation of two nations—Union and Confederacy—in the place of one.
35 posted on 12/02/2012 3:49:12 PM PST by VitacoreVision
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`


36 posted on 12/02/2012 4:10:23 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("To compel a man to fund the propagation of ideas he abhors is sinful and tyrannical." T. Jefferson)
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To: okie01

Damn straight!


37 posted on 12/02/2012 4:23:03 PM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and over 60 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: nickcarraway
Can we look at Lenin and Stalin and Mao and Castro and Che' through this same lens, please?
38 posted on 12/02/2012 4:24:56 PM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (Labor unions are the Communist Party of the USA.)
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To: HMS Surprise

How many people currently receiving social security checks are railing against the government for getting involved in the retirement business?

&&
Let’s see, do you mean the people who are collecting the money that they were forced to “put aside” for their retirement all during their working years?


39 posted on 12/02/2012 4:25:08 PM PST by Bigg Red (Sorry, Mr. Franklin, I guess we couldn't keep it.)
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To: VitacoreVision
To emancipate slaves on American soil, Jefferson thought, would result in a large-scale race war that would be as brutal and deadly as the slave revolt in Haiti in 1791.

That will come to pass, if Hussein and Eric have anything to say about it.

40 posted on 12/02/2012 4:26:30 PM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (Labor unions are the Communist Party of the USA.)
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To: GeronL

Of course it did.

The Founding Fathers laid down the foundation to do away with slavery in time. They realized that if they pushed the anti-slavery position, the thirteen colonies would never have signed on.

I once heard a very low figure for how many of the worlds slaves at the time, were brought to the territory that was or was to become part of the United States. Considering the populace of the region at the time, I believe it’s likely we were a minor player.

So who is it that is constantly trashed for taking part in slavery. Why the United States of course.

This isn’t really about slavery at all. It’s about taking down the big dog on the block.

I’m not excusing the ownership or enslavement of anyone here. I am however willing to take things in context, and realize what was accepted practice globally around the time of our founding, was not as a result of the concerted efforts of our Founding Fathers.

Ours is not a perfect world. Ours is not a perfect nation. There are times when we put our nation on track to correcting a wrong we cannot correct in our own time all things considered.

I think our Founding Fathers found a balance that was better than any balance applied to a nation’s founding prior to or after the fact.

I would like to see the Leftist Constitution they think would be better. Put it out there Lefties. Let everyone see the stinking pile of c that it is.


41 posted on 12/02/2012 4:33:25 PM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and over 60 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: nickcarraway

Who gives a crap what the NYT or any other Marxist says about T. Jefferson?


42 posted on 12/02/2012 4:35:14 PM PST by Altura Ct.
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To: DoughtyOne

A lot of countries still had slavery after the US abolished it. Some have banned it in name only too


43 posted on 12/02/2012 4:43:38 PM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: VitacoreVision

Thank you for that teaching.


44 posted on 12/02/2012 5:18:37 PM PST by Ciexyz
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To: DoughtyOne

“I once heard a very low figure for how many of the worlds slaves at the time, were brought to the territory that was or was to become part of the United States...”

Only 5% of the slaves brought to the Western Hemisphere came to North America. The vast majority were sent to the West Indies or South America. The number for what became the USA was between 500-600,000 souls.

If they had stayed or never been brought here, would their fate have been better or worse? By the conditions at the time (1620-1820) they would have likely been dead in intertribal wars.


45 posted on 12/02/2012 5:24:28 PM PST by JeanLM (Obama proves melanin is just enough to win elections)
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To: LongWayHome
Madison eventually reaped what Washington sowed (Following the Federalist Party thinking with appeasing the British after the Revolution) when he allowed the British to hang around the frontier (Which created havoc) despite the Treaty of Paris and the Jay Treaty calling for their ouster. Washington was to politically "scared" to do anything about that. There were plenty of sailors enslaved and killed in the name of pragmatism by Washington's Administration that ticked off a lot of people back then, namely Jefferson and Madison. The British became more dug in, thus...1812. Also Jefferson and Madison had good reason to go after Hamilton's and Adams' (Whom Hamilton disliked but shared ideological aspirations) desire to create a "artificial aristocracy" which Jefferson and any free man would of hated, but promoted by the higher ups in the Federalist Party including your vaunted Hamilton. Plenty to criticize Jefferson on, but his instance (And Madison's) that the strong central government Washington started promoting while Hamilton pulled his strings is not one of them.

"For I agree with you that there is a natural aristocracy among men. The grounds of this are virtue and talents. Formerly bodily powers gave place among the aristoi. But since the invention of gunpowder has armed the weak as well as the strong with missile death, bodily strength, like beauty, good humor, politeness and other accomplishments, has become but an auxiliary ground of distinction. There is also an artificial aristocracy founded on wealth and birth, without either virtue or talents; for with these it would belong to the first class. The natural aristocracy I consider as the most precious gift of nature for the instruction, the trusts, and government of society. And indeed it would have been inconsistent in creation to have formed man for the social state, and not to have provided virtue and wisdom enough to manage the concerns of the society. May we not even say that that form of government is the best which provides the most effectually for a pure selection of these natural aristoi into the offices of government? The artificial aristocracy is a mischievous ingredient in government, and provision should be made to prevent it's ascendancy." TJ to JA

What I find interesting is Hamilton being praised by all kinds a leftist for promoting the strong central State while lambasting Jefferson for his stance on the subject. Of course leftist love quoting Jefferson's about religion but that is a different subject in terms of authoritarian control Hamilton promoted (That led to their differences).

Self-governemt vs. being ruled by the elite, Jefferson was for the former while Hamilton for the later. A good reason for Jefferson and Madison to turn their backs on the Federalist Party.

JEFFERSON: “A private central bank issuing public currency is a greater menace to the liberties of the people than a standing army.” “We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.”

HAMILTON: “No society could succeed which did not unite the interest and credit of rich individuals with those of the state.” “A national debt, if it is not excessive, will be to us a national blessing.” (How did Hamilton propose to control the beast? By faith in the elites, lol)
46 posted on 12/02/2012 5:30:34 PM PST by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: rollo tomasi

Lol, he’s not my Hamilton, since I have mixed feelings about him. I should have made it clear that my issues with Jefferson & Madison concerning Washington & Hamilton were more about their personal treatment than the political issues of the day.


47 posted on 12/02/2012 5:43:55 PM PST by LongWayHome
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To: LongWayHome
For the record...:

JEFFERSON: “A private central bank issuing public currency is a greater menace to the liberties of the people than a standing army.” “We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.”

HAMILTON: “No society could succeed which did not unite the interest and credit of rich individuals with those of the state.” “A national debt, if it is not excessive, will be to us a national blessing.”

...are not authentic quotes, some people led in and go off the historical rails a bit, especially some of the Jefferson's quotes in Internet Land, but the quotes pretty much matched their ideological stance on the subject.
48 posted on 12/02/2012 5:45:32 PM PST by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: GeronL

Thanks GeronL. As I understand it, there are still nations today that have slavery, as you intimated.

And yet you hear our nation denigrated constantly (for what ended 150 years ago), and never hear anyone’s outrage that it still exists elsewhere today at this very moment.

We really struggled with slavery and the subsequent racism. I’m sorry any of it took place. What can you say now, other than I am glad that it is over.

By hanging on to it, the current generation is being severely under-served by their elders, harboring anger and reverse-racism. It’s a real shame.

It’s being used to justify not getting and education and apply themselves. This will lead to hardship for them, as well as the society that has to support them when they can’t.


49 posted on 12/02/2012 5:47:09 PM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and over 60 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: LongWayHome
Ok, sorry, a lot in common (Jefferson/Madison/Hamilton/Washington) but on certain subjects, out right hatred which can led to some misgivings between political foes, especially while trying to form a new Country/government.
50 posted on 12/02/2012 5:49:18 PM PST by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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