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Republican Doomsday Plan: Cave on Taxes (Vote 'Present')
Yahoo ^

Posted on 12/03/2012 8:24:00 AM PST by Sub-Driver

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To: Sub-Driver

BTW, about one-tenth of the scheduled spending cuts are cuts in defense spending.


51 posted on 12/03/2012 9:24:23 AM PST by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of rotten politics smelled around the planet.)
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To: Sub-Driver

Do it.


52 posted on 12/03/2012 9:26:05 AM PST by Safetgiver ( Islam makes barbarism look genteel.)
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To: Last Dakotan

Let me take another crack at this:

This plan sucks, and here’s why...

If a low information voter is going to hold the Republicans responsible for anything, they will continue to hold them responsible, even if they pull this idiotic “voting Present” stunt. There is going to be some Obama giveaway that is too ridiculous for even these lily-livered Republicans to live with, and they will get the blame for turning it down. Because that’s the way it is with low-information voters. If you don’t tell them what you stand for, they will believe whatever your opponent says about you. And there is no better way to not tell them what you stand for than by refusing to even vote.

And your better informed voter who does not favor tax increases will still blame the Republicans because they had the power to stop it and did nothing.

And as for the better informed voter who does favor tax increases, the Republicans are never going to get credit with them, because they worship at the feet of Obama.

So this plan is a LOSE/LOSE/LOSE for Republicans. We give away everything, including any pretense of having a conherent philosophy that we are willing to advance. Why would anybody ever give a Republican the time of day, after we show ourselves to be such unprincipled weasels?


53 posted on 12/03/2012 9:26:30 AM PST by gridlock (ELIMINATE PERVERSE INCENTIVES)
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To: Last Dakotan

The debt ceiling is not a good bargaining chip. And there is no way that there will be enough Reps to vote against extending the debt ceiling. It is like holding a gun to your own head and threaten to shoot yourself.


54 posted on 12/03/2012 9:27:28 AM PST by kabar
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To: God luvs America

It gets even better when the lamestream go into attack mode over it and inadvertently expose zero’s “present” votes from his past.


55 posted on 12/03/2012 9:30:31 AM PST by Michael Barnes (Obamaa+ Downgrade)
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To: Last Dakotan
Nope, think debt ceiling.

Oh, for crying out loud!

Why would you think for a moment they are going to take a stand on the debt ceiling if they won't take a stand here!

That is how we got into this mess, in case you forgot.

This is like the Town Rummy promising that he will go straight after one more drink. Do the right thing. Cut him off. He'll be better off in the long run.

Because all of these talks are centered on how to protect well-padded Congressional Republican posteriors, and very little is about what is good for the country.

I say we vote for the good of the country, and take the Fiscal Cliff square on the bow. This manufactured crisis is just a miniature version of the inevitable default to come. Better to tackle it now than to kick the can down the road, yet again.

56 posted on 12/03/2012 9:31:40 AM PST by gridlock (ELIMINATE PERVERSE INCENTIVES)
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To: Susquehanna Patriot
second vote on extending the upper class tax cut until unemployment drops below 7% for 3 months in a row .

It is like being a lttle bit pregnant. Once you agree that it is a matter of when not if the marginal tax rates for the "rich" can be increased, we are headed down a slippery slope.

The GOP has been saying that these increased rates will hurt small businesses and cost over 700,000 jobs. Do we really believe that or is it just meaningless rhetoric?

57 posted on 12/03/2012 9:32:00 AM PST by kabar
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To: woweeitsme

I think this would be a great idea, but the media is going to blame everything on the Republicans....They are/will anyway.


58 posted on 12/03/2012 9:33:07 AM PST by Safetgiver ( Islam makes barbarism look genteel.)
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To: Uncle Miltie

For the record the House has already passed legislation to extend the Bush tax cuts. Did so over the summer.


59 posted on 12/03/2012 9:34:02 AM PST by ironman
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To: kabar
The main reason that Obama is pushing for tax increases (marginal rates) on the "rich" is to split and destroy the GOP. Voting present would effectively accomplish that objective.

Damn straight. Might as well not have a GOP. And come 2012, we won't!

60 posted on 12/03/2012 9:34:07 AM PST by gridlock (ELIMINATE PERVERSE INCENTIVES)
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To: gridlock
Because if we cave here, there is no reason for the Democrats to think we will ever stand firm at any other point.

Sincere question: Who is this "we" of whom you speak? You, me, and Trey Gowdy? Or, do you mean "we" as in most Republican Party members of Congress?
61 posted on 12/03/2012 9:35:21 AM PST by Resettozero
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To: Sub-Driver

This would be excellent. Let the Rats win the battle but the GOP wins the war.


62 posted on 12/03/2012 9:35:33 AM PST by tobyhill
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To: Sub-Driver
******************NO**********************

We want tax cuts for EVERYBODY - not just certain groups or people.

We need to stop insulating people from their decisions. People need to start seeing how this stuff effects them personally.

But what do I know? I'm not nearly as wise as the smartest people in the room (even though the smartest people in the room can't win anything...)
63 posted on 12/03/2012 9:35:33 AM PST by Tzimisce (What do you do when every every branch of the government is corrupt and aligned against you?)
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To: Sub-Driver

The subject covered by Bill Whittle here in “Episode 20” — along with a lot of other good info.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/the-stratosphere-lounge


64 posted on 12/03/2012 9:38:21 AM PST by MayflowerMadam
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To: MrB
Like Mark Levin has said, the leftist media WILL blame the repubs for anything and everything...expect it and then have a pro-active plan as follows. Mark suggested that the Republicans/Conservatives buy some network time, have someone like Paul Ryan, Marco Rubio or, and I can't think of his name, but the Senator from Utah, (I think,) with the last name of Lee, a true Conservative and well spoken, speak to the American public and in clear, hard-hitting language, explain to them what obozo is doing to this country and its end result, and then explain what and why the Republicans/Conservatives are taking the steps that they are taking. Mark Levin said he would write the speech himself if they want him to, and I only WISH he would be the one to write it, knowing that he is more than capable of laying it out in language we can all understand, and telling the TRUTH, and pulling no punches.

IF, IF Boehner does not go along with the plan, we must call, write, email, hold demonstrations at his office in Ohio, and in Washington....Boehner must HEAR what We the People demand that he do...we have to get in his face if he refuses to listen to phone calls, letters, emails, WHATEVER. He must NOT cave...show him he has OUR support, and show him how We the People will turn on him and his party if they fold ONCE AGAIN...tell them to act like men and women and stand up for the Constitution, Liberty and Freedom..fight the socialists/communists/ in our government and have some courage and respect for the positions they hold and remember how our forefathers handled their business...our forefathers had balls and they loved their country. We the People DEMAND and EXPECT NO LESS from Boehner and the rest.

65 posted on 12/03/2012 9:40:47 AM PST by itssme
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To: gridlock; All

” This plan sucks, and here’s why...

If a low information voter is going to hold the Republicans responsible for anything, they will continue to hold them responsible, even if they pull this idiotic “voting Present” stunt. There is going to be some Obama giveaway that is too ridiculous for even these lily-livered Republicans to live with, and they will get the blame for turning it down. Because that’s the way it is with low-information voters. If you don’t tell them what you stand for, they will believe whatever your opponent says about you. And there is no better way to not tell them what you stand for than by refusing to even vote.

And your better informed voter who does not favor tax increases will still blame the Republicans because they had the power to stop it and did nothing.

And as for the better informed voter who does favor tax increases, the Republicans are never going to get credit with them, because they worship at the feet of Obama.

So this plan is a LOSE/LOSE/LOSE for Republicans. We give away everything, including any pretense of having a conherent philosophy that we are willing to advance. Why would anybody ever give a Republican the time of day, after we show ourselves to be such unprincipled weasels?”

I repeated your post in hopes all will read it.


66 posted on 12/03/2012 9:41:16 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker
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To: Sub-Driver
The question is:

If the Republicans all vote "Present," what will the Democrats do?

I maintain the Dems will not want the whole thing on their shoulders.

They will vote "No."

67 posted on 12/03/2012 9:46:47 AM PST by eCSMaster (2012 elections: American Coup d'etat!)
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To: kabar

“The GOP has been saying that these increased rates will hurt small businesses and cost over 700,000 jobs. Do we really believe that or is it just meaningless rhetoric?”

You are right, but part of this is to make it to the “next day to fight again” and not let Lucy pull out the football again on Charlie in a stalemate that the other side believes doing nothing is a winning strategy (they get their tax increases and blame the Reps for all bad things).

Actually, I should have made the unemployment rate 6.5% in my proposal, but start the actual negotiation at 6%. Instead of making the tax increase “time-dependent” (expires after so many months) we make it “performance dependent”. i.e. tie it to jobs, after all that is what we are trying to create here. Even Obozo said that when things are bad, we don’t raise taxes. Of course he doesn’t believe what he says, because somebody just writes for him.

BTW there is a good chance that Harry Reid would not even allow it to come up for a vote.


68 posted on 12/03/2012 9:49:07 AM PST by Susquehanna Patriot (U Think Leftist/Liberals Still Believe That Dissent = Highest Form of Patriotism?)
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To: gridlock

They should just pass an extension of the Bush Tax Cuts for 4 years and go home for Christmas. Let Obama be the one who raises taxes on everyone. Voting present? Typical of them that they would do something that they’ve criticized Obama for doing.


69 posted on 12/03/2012 9:49:16 AM PST by Windy City Conservative
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To: Last Dakotan

It is not a plan; it is surrender


70 posted on 12/03/2012 9:51:58 AM PST by Windy City Conservative
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To: Resettozero
Sincere question: Who is this "we" of whom you speak? You, me, and Trey Gowdy? Or, do you mean "we" as in most Republican Party members of Congress?

"We" would be the mass of Republican voters who effectively bullied our Congresscritters to vote unanimously against Obamacare, the Stimulus and Son-of-Stimulous.

"We" would be the pissed-off activists who installed an overwhelming Republican majority in the House of Representatives in 2010.

"We" are the voters who are dead-set against Obamacare, tax increases, crony capitalism and booming deficits. "We" are the voters who elected these Republicans, and now We must insist that they do what we sent them there to do.

And if "We" support this plan to duck responsibility by accepting a vote of "Present" from our Representative, there is no reason to think they will ever take us seriously, ever again.

As things to fear go, the Fiscal Cliff is not that bad. It is not like we're spending a Winter in Valley Forge with no boots. It is not we're staring up at the Union Lines on Seminary Ridge or waiting for the balloon to go up on the Somme. It's not like we're carrying a flag up Mount Suribachi or clearing IEDs in the Red Zone.

We're going to have to pay a little more taxes and we're going to get a little less stuff. Our military will have to do more with less. But if we are willing to take this on firmly, we will establish that we will stand on principle, and there are some places will just will not go, willingly. And this will be the first step in turning the tide.

71 posted on 12/03/2012 9:55:08 AM PST by gridlock (ELIMINATE PERVERSE INCENTIVES)
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To: cotton1706

-— Instead, the House should pass an extension of ALL ratesand nothing else, send that to the senate, then adjourn -—

Yes.

Otherwise, this is the Cave Plan.


72 posted on 12/03/2012 9:55:43 AM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

If we un-link the tax rates, we have given away all there is to give. What leverage would we have, after that?

And don’t spin me a fairy tale about the Debt Ceiling. Been there, done that. They know we’ll cave there, because have done so in the past, over and over again.


73 posted on 12/03/2012 10:03:52 AM PST by gridlock (ELIMINATE PERVERSE INCENTIVES)
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To: kabar

Other advantage, is that it should help stop the perpetuation of the term “Bush tax cuts”.

It moves the focus / link back to jobs and what raising taxes on anyone in a bad economy will do. Average low information person thinks despite Obozo being re-elected, we don’t have jobs.


74 posted on 12/03/2012 10:10:26 AM PST by Susquehanna Patriot (U Think Leftist/Liberals Still Believe That Dissent = Highest Form of Patriotism?)
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To: Sub-Driver
Sounds like a plan. Reality - we don't have the nerve to let rates increase on everyone; this is a decent alternative politically.

Remember, if they do nothing more than this, the 2% increase in Soc Security withholding will hit everyone who has a job (going back to its traditional level, 2% holiday expires.) Likewise, the Obamacare tax is coming too and the AMT will still hit millions. If Obama wants it about one issue, let's have at it.

Then the fun will begin with the debt ceiling. 98% won't care anymore, getting their low taxes (well, as Romney noted, 47% don't care, they don't pay fed income taxes) and the GOP will have a little more leverage.

75 posted on 12/03/2012 10:12:39 AM PST by dan on the right
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To: woweeitsme

No, because by obstaining, the democrats will vote to raise taxes on the rich only. When the economy tanks, Republicans can say—WE DIDN’T VOTE FOR THAT!


76 posted on 12/03/2012 10:14:08 AM PST by Alas Babylon!
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To: skeeter

FORCE the DIMS to OWN the economy for the last 4 years and especially the next 4 years


77 posted on 12/03/2012 10:14:56 AM PST by GraceG
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
To put it another way, let's stop playing Checkers and start playing Chess. We need to start thinking a few steps ahead, and see where this plan will leave us.

If we un-link the tax rates, we will be left with the Middle Class tax rates, which will sunset, and the Upper Bracket tax rates, which will no longer sunset. So there will no longer be the bi-Annual pas de deux where we get to hold a gun to each other's heads. Instead the Democrats can just come out and say that the eeeeevil rich still aren't paying enough, because we still have deficits, and they can hold a gun to our heads while we stand around with our hands in our pockets, over and over again. The great majority of voters will see that they are getting something for nothing, and will whole-heartedly endorse this approach.

We will have no leverage on spending cuts or entitlement reform. The Democrats will already have everything they want. Why should they deal? (And if somebody says they will deal for the good of the country, I shall fart in his general direction). We will be at the point where the majority of voters are voting themselves money from the Treasury.

And then we will be at the point so well described by that eminent philosopher, Cpl Dwayne Hicks: "That's it man, Game Over man, game over! What the **** are we gonna do now? What are we gonna do? "

78 posted on 12/03/2012 10:16:08 AM PST by gridlock (ELIMINATE PERVERSE INCENTIVES)
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To: Susquehanna Patriot
You are right, but part of this is to make it to the “next day to fight again” and not let Lucy pull out the football again on Charlie in a stalemate that the other side believes doing nothing is a winning strategy (they get their tax increases and blame the Reps for all bad things).

The GOP always rationalizes why it is not the best time to fight. We did that during the 2010 lame duck session following our historic victory in the midterms. We decided to just extend the Bush tax cuts for another year rather than make them permanent. We are back in the same place again with the reality that Obama will have another four years. And by the way, the GOP did absolutely nothing in terms of making actual cuts in spending. Is it any wonder why the GOP is called the Stupid Party?

The simple and best answer is to stick to your principles and go down fighting. We either do what is best for the country or not. We are fast becoming a minority party due to demographics and a culture of dependency. Obamacare, another huge entitlement program, will be implemented. But it will usher in more taxes and greater deficits and debt. It is time to draw a line in the sand and tell the public that we can not continue down this road. Hear us now and believe us later. The collapse of the welfare state is inevitable. Now is the time to position ourselves to pick up the pieces.

79 posted on 12/03/2012 10:22:11 AM PST by kabar
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To: Alas Babylon!
No, because by obstaining, the democrats will vote to raise taxes on the rich only. When the economy tanks, Republicans can say—WE DIDN’T VOTE FOR THAT!

Imagine that I am a bank teller, and somebody comes to my counter, and asks without any show of force or threat of any kind for me to hand him a thousand dollars. I ask him if this is a robbery, or if something bad will happen if I don't hand him the money, and he says that nothing will happen if I don't, but he just wants a thousand dollars.

If I hand him the money from my drawer, who robbed the bank? Me or him?

We elected a Republican House of Representatives. It is their job to be the Bank Teller. It is time for them to do their job.

80 posted on 12/03/2012 10:25:08 AM PST by gridlock (ELIMINATE PERVERSE INCENTIVES)
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To: kabar
It is time to draw a line in the sand and tell the public that we can not continue down this road. Hear us now and believe us later. The collapse of the welfare state is inevitable. Now is the time to position ourselves to pick up the pieces.

Darn tootin'!

81 posted on 12/03/2012 10:28:37 AM PST by gridlock (ELIMINATE PERVERSE INCENTIVES)
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To: Susquehanna Patriot

How about we target the negotiations at below 6% black youth unemployment?

That would put some itching powder into the landscape.

The NappyOne


82 posted on 12/03/2012 10:31:07 AM PST by NappyOne
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To: Sub-Driver

Excellent and apparently what the American voters wanted - stalemate.

Until they’re offered something better.


83 posted on 12/03/2012 10:35:03 AM PST by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: gridlock
"And then we will be at the point so well described by that eminent philosopher, Cpl Dwayne Hicks: "That's it man, Game Over man, game over! What the **** are we gonna do now? What are we gonna do? ""

I believe that is Private Hudson :-)

84 posted on 12/03/2012 10:35:17 AM PST by Truth29
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To: Truth29

I stand corrected.


85 posted on 12/03/2012 10:39:50 AM PST by gridlock (ELIMINATE PERVERSE INCENTIVES)
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To: Sub-Driver

3 problems with this master plan:

-The Dems OWN Obamacare for the same reasons
-It is wildly unpopular
-Yet it did not seem to hurt them at the ballot box last month.


86 posted on 12/03/2012 10:50:16 AM PST by Buckeye McFrog
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To: Buckeye McFrog
-Yet it did not seem to hurt them at the ballot box last month.

For one major reason: The Republican campaign couldn't make Obamacare an issue...because our candidate was the sponsor of Romneycare.

Any other GOP cnadidate could've credibly campaigned on repealing Obamacare and enlisted the popular resistance to the scheme in their favor.

87 posted on 12/03/2012 11:02:51 AM PST by okie01 (THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA; Ignorance on parade.)
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To: gridlock

Oh, THAT “we”. (Eloquent riposte; better than I deserved.) Count me as one of the “we”, then.


88 posted on 12/03/2012 11:11:54 AM PST by Resettozero
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To: gridlock
We elected a Republican House of Representatives.
... It is time for them to do their job.


IF the elections of 2014 go anything like 2010, perhaps there will be enough leverage to do what you say. But the Republican Party has already made it clear that those elected in 2010 were, instead, "Tea Party" members -- the modern definition of conservative members of Congress. Were there any immediate chance of holding ALL Republican congressthings to their oaths, there would already be significent and very public rumblings of the need for a new Speaker. Have only heard a few peeps so far. All rumblings have been their stomachs.
89 posted on 12/03/2012 11:23:03 AM PST by Resettozero
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To: Resettozero
IF the elections of 2014 go anything like 2010, perhaps there will be enough leverage to do what you say.

If this plan by the Congressional Republicans to duck their responsibility goes through, 2014 is going to be a disaster.

Sure, we will primary a few of these guys out, and replace them with solid conservatives willing to hold the line. But for every squish we squash, there will be a half dozen who make it to the general election, and in November, the Democrats will hand them their heads.

Who is going to cross the street to vote for a Republican who failed so pathetically when the chips were down? Who is going to be enthusiastic about flipping that lever?

The "lesser of two evils" argument falls apart when one is just as evil as the other. If the Congressional Republicans do this, they will lose the House. And, furthermore, they will deserve to lose the House.

90 posted on 12/03/2012 12:09:12 PM PST by gridlock (ELIMINATE PERVERSE INCENTIVES)
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To: woweeitsme

Agreed, I feel the same way. The single argument that the Dems ultimately make is that “the Bush tax cuts created the deficit” (especially for the rich). Obama is posturing for keeping them in place except for the top 2%, that somehow that will take care of things. For the sake of destroying this myth, I say fine, let the top 2% rate go up - but let them OWN it.

As for the top 2%, sorry guys, but it’s the only way to kill this whole class warfare bs. The people voted, maybe they should see what they asked for (unfortunately). I just fear that in 4 more years, along with Obamacare being fully implemented, our country will be in shambles. I suppose I just ask myself this, is that what it’ll take for people to wake up? It’ll be quite difficult to blame Republicans.


91 posted on 12/03/2012 1:04:51 PM PST by fuzzylogic (welfare state = sharing consequences of poor moral choices among everybody)
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To: Buckeye McFrog
The Dems OWN Obamacare for the same reasons -It is wildly unpopular -Yet it did not seem to hurt them at the ballot box last month.

The Dems were clever in how Obamacare was implemented. The carrots came first and the pain comes after the 2012 elections. Wait until the various penalties and taxes come into play in 2013 and 2014. Then the public will feel the real pain of Obamacare, which heretofore has allowed people with preexisting conditions to be covered, offered free physcials, and allowed "children" under 26 to remain on their parents' insurance plan. Obamacare will become an albatross around the Dems necks and the Reps should not permit them to fix it, i.e., alleviate the pain.

92 posted on 12/03/2012 1:31:10 PM PST by kabar
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To: Buckeye McFrog

And why should a voter think that the Republican party will do anything better when they nominate the father of Obamacare (Romneycare)?

The Republican party lost because it is so concerned with appealing to everyone that it satisfies no-one.


93 posted on 12/03/2012 2:54:58 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Sub-Driver

If they vote “Present”,
Then I vote “Democrat”.
The Devil I Know.


94 posted on 12/03/2012 5:14:45 PM PST by Haiku Guy (If you have a right / To the service I provide / I must be your slave)
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To: OneWingedShark

If the Republicans hold together, they can prevent the passage of higher tax rates.

If the Republicans fracture, we will get the higher tax rates, but at least we will know who we cannot trust when it comes time to pick candidates in 2014.

The purpose of this plan is to conceal from the voters which members of the Republican caucus cannot be trusted on taxes. To my mind, anybody who goes along to keep this information from Republican primary voters is not to be trusted, so anybody who votes “Present” should get a primary challenge.

Our Republican Congresscritters have to know that the only way to prove they are worthy of re-election is to vote “Nay” on any and all tax increases. Any other vote put’s them in the “To Be Primaried” pile.

Haiku Guy has it right.

If they vote “Present”
I will vote “Democrat”
The Devil I Know


95 posted on 12/04/2012 4:53:07 AM PST by gridlock (ELIMINATE PERVERSE INCENTIVES)
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To: OneWingedShark

If the Republicans hold together, they can prevent the passage of higher tax rates.

If the Republicans fracture, we will get the higher tax rates, but at least we will know who we cannot trust when it comes time to pick candidates in 2014.

The purpose of this plan is to conceal from the voters which members of the Republican caucus cannot be trusted on taxes. To my mind, anybody who goes along to keep this information from Republican primary voters is not to be trusted, so anybody who votes “Present” should get a primary challenge.

Our Republican Congresscritters have to know that the only way to prove they are worthy of re-election is to vote “Nay” on any and all tax increases. Any other vote put’s them in the “To Be Primaried” pile.

Haiku Guy has it right.

If they vote “Present”
I will vote “Democrat”
The Devil I Know


96 posted on 12/04/2012 4:53:14 AM PST by gridlock (ELIMINATE PERVERSE INCENTIVES)
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To: gridlock
If the Republicans hold together, they can prevent the passage of higher tax rates.

We need higher tax-rates; but let me explain -- there is a huge segment that pays no income tax, the top 20% of earners pay ~50% of the total income-tax revenue (IIRC).

Now, the ultra-wealthy can hire people [and indeed whole firms] whose job is to find tax-shelters and loopholes so that they don't have to pay [much] taxes. (On a corporate level, that's what happened w/ GE a while back.)

So then we have a situation where two groups have significantly less tax-burdens than the "average working man" -- a simple and just solution would be considered raising taxes, but is far more just than our current progressive scale: flat-rate, no exemptions, no credits.

But the reason the political caste won't go for something like that is because it strips them of the power to dole out favors in the form of adding (or destroying) loopholes the corporations want.

97 posted on 12/04/2012 7:13:26 AM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Uncle Miltie

I’m with you on that plan.


98 posted on 12/04/2012 10:01:58 AM PST by painter (Obamahood,"Steal from the working people and give to the worthless.")
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