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Rand Paul: We Should Let Dems Raise Taxes And Then Let Them Own It
Real Clear Politics ^ | December 6, 2012

Posted on 12/06/2012 7:04:39 PM PST by Pinkbell

SEN. RAND PAUL: I have yet another thought on how we can fix this. Why don't we let the Democrats pass whatever they want? If they are the party of higher taxes, all the Republicans vote present and let the Democrats raise taxes as high as they want to raise them, let Democrats in the Senate raise taxes, let the president sign it and then make them own the tax increase. And when the economy stalls, when the economy sputters, when people lose their jobs, they know which party to blame, the party of high taxes. Let's don't be the party of just almost as high taxes.

LARRY KUDLOW, CNBC: Some people have called that the doomsday scenario. Others have said, 'Look, it's a strategic retreat on the Republicans' behalf.' WWould you vote present for that in the Senate if that came up?

RAND PAUL: Yes, I don't think we have to in the Senate. In the House, they have to because the Democrats don't have the majority. In the Senate, I'm happy not to filibuster it, and I will announce tonight on your show that I will work with Harry Reid to let him pass his big old tax hike with a simple majority if that's what Harry Reid wants, because then they will become the party of high taxes and they can own it.

(Excerpt) Read more at realclearpolitics.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: fiscalcliff; forward; obama; randpaul; taxes
I've seen this suggested before on FR after the election. There can be arguments made both for and against this of course. On one hand, you could argue that the Republican politicians were elected to fight for conservative ideals and should against the Democrat liberal ideals. On the other hand, you could argue that the majority of Americans chose liberalism by giving us Obama and a Dem Senate. They obviously think the Democrats are doing a good job and believe in higher taxes and government expansion. Let these people have it, and let them see what a mess it will it be. If you don't give it to them, they'll claim that higher taxes and government expansion would have worked had it just not been for those Republicans interfering. This way, they can't blame the Republicans. The problem with this: When it fails, the Democrats will do what they always do. They'll say that they just need more time, more taxes, and more government expansion. Sadly, I could see the voters buying that and voting for more Democrat rule. That's what happens in cities like Detroit. Then the country could be on a further, irrevocable course left.
1 posted on 12/06/2012 7:04:48 PM PST by Pinkbell
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To: Pinkbell

My problem is with the “let them own it” assumption, which ranks up there with the “a president cannot be reelected in a poor economy” assumption, as far as I’m concerned.


2 posted on 12/06/2012 7:07:07 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: Pinkbell

The dems will raise taxes and the blame will go to republicans.


3 posted on 12/06/2012 7:07:56 PM PST by DBrow
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To: Pinkbell

What does Rand Paul mean by “he will work with Harry Reid?”


4 posted on 12/06/2012 7:09:52 PM PST by Wisconsinlady ("Never give the devil a ride; he will want to take over the driving.")
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To: Pinkbell

The problem is the GOP has two leading idiots that sound like they have marbles in their mouths. Neither are in a position of skill nor personality to play this game.


5 posted on 12/06/2012 7:10:26 PM PST by Gene Eric (Demoralization is a weapon of the enemy. Don't get it, don't spread it!)
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To: Pinkbell

That makes no more sense than Israeli Soldiers allowing terrorists to murder the innocent so that they can blame the terrorists for murder: (1) In both situations, the innocent get hurt, and (2) In both situations, the media will still blame the good guys. Republicans should do what is right - stand up for spending cuts, not cave in on extra taxes to support increased wasteful spending.


6 posted on 12/06/2012 7:10:48 PM PST by Pollster1 (Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. - Ronald Reagan)
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To: Pinkbell
How else are ya gonna get the Dems to cut anything? Oh, wait, how else are ya gonna get the GOP to cut anything as well?

Seems like this cliff will be a start at cutting anything.

I will be interested to see how the markets react to the 'cuts'?

Will they go up because of 'cutting'? Down, because of less Gov't spending? It will be interesting.

7 posted on 12/06/2012 7:11:45 PM PST by Theoria (Romney is a Pyrrhic victory.)
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To: Pinkbell

Gutless, doormat, RINO File.


8 posted on 12/06/2012 7:13:22 PM PST by Graewoulf ((Traitor John Roberts' Obama"care" violates Sherman Anti-Trust Law, AND the U.S. Constitution.))
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To: Pinkbell

People that suggest this have not thought it through.

1. In a rational world where people understand economy lessons of cause / effect this might make sense. We had 4 years of effects of Obama with unemployment in 8-10% range. Obama was reelected and there was little to any fallout on Obama.

2. In a smaller country where cause & effect happen rather quickly this might make sense. The US is a huge country and is extremely resilient mainly due to its people. Effects of higher taxes would be a continued drag but don’t count on some immediate depression when Obama raises taxes

3. The MSM will distort whatever factual effects occur

To a certain extent we have no choice but let Obama do what he wants because he has more votes. I see no reason to go on record supporting anything he does hoping for some crash effect. Our people should always go on record opposing everything he does. There is no need. He has the votes to do most of what he wants anyway.


9 posted on 12/06/2012 7:15:37 PM PST by plain talk
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To: Pinkbell

They won’t own it, they will invariably blame the GOP for their own idiotic request.


10 posted on 12/06/2012 7:15:45 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (How long before all this "fairness" kills everybody, even the poor it was supposed to help???)
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To: Pinkbell

If Rand is sincere, then he is wrong. He will damage the country and conservatism. If Rand is not sincere, then that is bad too.


11 posted on 12/06/2012 7:17:15 PM PST by impimp
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To: Pinkbell

So he is saying let it pass without one Republican vote. The trouble is Obama care passed without one Republican vote, and we still have Obama care.


12 posted on 12/06/2012 7:20:19 PM PST by Taxbilly
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To: Pinkbell
The problem with this line of thinking is that, once implemented, it will HURT real people. Badly. We're talking perhaps life-changing financial devastation to some.

I'm with the thought that republicans do what is right and what is principled. Have VIRTUE, and practice it. If we go down, then we go down fighting. I do not want to go down belly up.

George Washington, in his will, bequeathed a set of fine swords, much like the power wielded by republicans on taxes, with the stipulation that:

"...These swords are accompanied with an injunction not to unsheathe them for the purpose of shedding blood, except it be for self defense, or in defense of their Country and it’s rights; and in the latter case, to keep them unsheathed, and prefer falling with them in their hands, to the relinquishment thereof. . . .”

13 posted on 12/06/2012 7:22:03 PM PST by C210N (In favor of private rights and public happiness)
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To: Pinkbell

Let them own it? Does he mean like the way they have owned up to anything the last 4 years? They WILL NOT own up to it. obama and Pravda USA will stick their fingers in the face of the GOP and say,,,your fault!


14 posted on 12/06/2012 7:22:53 PM PST by chessplayer
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To: Pinkbell

I can see both sides.

This is the biggest “no win” situation I have seen the Repubs in in my 67 years. I see no solution.

They are damned if they stick to their guns and the political damage will be incalculable. In the long run, the damage to the Repubs will be possibly fatal for national elections.

They cannot cave in because to do so is to do incalculable damage to the nation.

But then, they are the ones who let themselves get in this situation by agreeing to the committee of 12, and in a sense signed their own death warrant - and gave all the leverage to the Dems. All with good intentions, I’m sure. Naive. Stupid. Blind.

We need someone with Solomon-type wisdom to deal with this one - and I don’t see anyone out there even close........


15 posted on 12/06/2012 7:24:50 PM PST by Arlis (.)
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To: Pinkbell

Here is the way I see it. Based upon how the last election went in which most people still blame Bush for the bad economy, I believe they will still blame him even more in four more years even after the rich are taxed by Obama. I believe at that point, they will beg Obama to make himself dictator for life and tax the rich even more than he did in 2012 because it was not enough. The media will ensure all of this and so will the educational system.


16 posted on 12/06/2012 7:27:16 PM PST by sheikdetailfeather (Yuri Bezmenov (KGB Defector) - "Kick The Communists Out of Your Govt. & Don't Accept Their Goodies.")
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To: Pinkbell
Nope, demand serious spending cuts put into full effect FIRST, then we'll talk about how to increase revenue.

Otherwise, Republicans will pass only tax and spending cuts for Zer0's veto.

If Zer0 doesn't like it he can dissolve the house.

17 posted on 12/06/2012 7:28:48 PM PST by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: impimp

As far as I’m concerned, “conservatives” who cause huge deficits ain’t very conservative now are they. Boehner is the second most liberal speaker of the house in the history of the USA... This thanks to his continuing resolution that spent trillions of USD.

It is time to balance the budget.

Rand is totally correct. If the democrats vote for their huge tax increase, it could help flip the senate back to GOP control.

It would also lower the deficit


18 posted on 12/06/2012 7:33:25 PM PST by o2bfree (All us minorities got us an Obamaphone!!!)
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To: Pinkbell
“Let them own it” is merely wishful thinking on the part of the losers in the political wars.

The Democrats will redouble their efforts with every failure and blame that failure on their opponents. A critical mass of the population will support the Democrats in the well-founded belief that they will get their “fair share” of the loot.

This will continue with ever greater intensity until loot is no longer available to appease the mobs. At that point the mobs will turn on everybody who is within reach.

Most of the people who support the Democrats will never learn anything from the failures of socialism and will continue their support quite literally to their dying breaths.

Plan accordingly.

19 posted on 12/06/2012 7:36:41 PM PST by flamberge (What next?)
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To: C210N

The devastation is coming if and when the USA goes bankrupt. Balance the budget now!!!!!


20 posted on 12/06/2012 7:37:23 PM PST by o2bfree (All us minorities got us an Obamaphone!!!)
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To: Pinkbell

The Tea Party got him elected. Palin is apart of the Tea Party movement. She has said say no to higher taxes and fight on principles, as Newt is saying. What is with these people. This is a show so he does not have to fight his friends up there on the other side. Show conviction. I guess this is all a done deal.


21 posted on 12/06/2012 7:37:29 PM PST by Christie at the beach (I like Newt. Our nation's foundation is under attack.)
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To: Pinkbell

What is he thinking ??? !!!

I thought this guy was smart... the republicans look like buffoons if they all vote present. If my rep did that I’d fire him as soon as I could.

Reminds of the French - surrendering to avoid a fight.


22 posted on 12/06/2012 7:37:41 PM PST by mike_9958
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To: o2bfree

No! Raising taxes is not the answer. Cutting spending is. Rand knows this. He is playing games. Are you a Rand sycophant or do you believe what you are saying.

If you want to balance the budget, then it is easy. Don’t increase the debt ceiling and all budgets would, almost by definition, be balanced.


23 posted on 12/06/2012 7:42:16 PM PST by impimp
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To: Christie at the beach

I agree 100 percent w Rand Paul. Obama is going to get his damned tax increases, why should the GOP get complicit blame, in any way, shape or form.

Obama has proven that he has zero coattails in a midterm cycle. Make the Dems own the economy and the tax increases.

People will get hurt? Hell yes, and I hope all of them voted for Obama. They are going to get hurt anyway.


24 posted on 12/06/2012 7:45:33 PM PST by mwl8787
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To: C210N

I will bet good money that George washington knew the difference between its and it’s.


25 posted on 12/06/2012 7:47:07 PM PST by Defiant (If there are infinite parallel universes, why Lord, am I living in the one with Obama as President?)
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To: Pinkbell

It’s interesting to me that people who raise hell about a Republican Speaker who they fear will make a deal with King Barry would somehow think it’s a good idea to resist King Barry by giving him whatever he wants.

Isn’t it time for people to sober up and realize that King Barry or any other democrat President will never be cornered into “owning” any economic failure? Republicans couldn’t even get credit for the balanced budgets under Clinton and that was after the MSM cried and screamed over how horrible the Republican reductions in spending were.

Republicans are going to get the blame for everything bad heading our way. Make the most of it, drive everything over the cliff and let the people who voted for King Barry own that because they can’t get away from it.

JMHO


26 posted on 12/06/2012 7:57:49 PM PST by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: mwl8787
Obama is going to get his damned tax increases,

He gets those automatically, but what he does not get automatically is a debt increase. Why on earth the GOP would let the spending go on unabated without a fight is beyond me. Imagine if the situation were reversed, if they held the House and Republicans held the Senate and the White House. This is what Reagan faced, and Reagan had to agree to tons of excessive spending because the Dems used the House to control the purse strings. They gave some on taxes as long as they got to keep their pet social programs intact.

Same thing should apply here. The People's House was given control of the purse for a reason. It represents the entire nation, too, and Republicans received a higher percentage of the vote for congressional seats than Obama received for the seat he illegally holds. They should say, "this is how much you can spend. Period. If you want more, you have to work a deal with us on taxes." Now, what would happen is that Obama would go ballistic, and the media would go ballistic, as the federal government ran out of money. The Republicans would cave at the mere thought of it. I wouldn't. I would welcome it. It's a battle that should have been won in 1995, but Bob Dole caved in too early. It's a battle that George Bush refused to fight. Withstand the blistering attacks from MSNBC and the Washington Post, and outlast the bastard. That's what men with courage would do. Hell, it's not like signing the Declaration of Independence or anything, it's just refusing to let the country go down the tubes and enduring bad press.

But I fantasize. Boehner is as much a part of DC as Harry Reid. To shut one agency for one day would pain him more than the loss of a loved one.

27 posted on 12/06/2012 8:02:31 PM PST by Defiant (If there are infinite parallel universes, why Lord, am I living in the one with Obama as President?)
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To: mwl8787

Vote present for the next 2 years. America wants socialism let them get it without 1 republican vote. Let the leftists run the country for 2 years and let them own this disaster. Let the ultra left democrats in congress pass what they want. (Not including cap and trade or a vat). The majority of the country has its head buried 2 feet up its own ass. This president is a kamikaze pilot. Theres nothing we can do to stop him now. Let him own this.


28 posted on 12/06/2012 8:03:18 PM PST by malos (Call Me Inpressed)
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To: mwl8787

Rand Paul and the Republicans are in an impossible situation. They know raising taxes is bad for the economy and will hurt the American economy. They are the adults. However the decadent and dependent won the last election. Elections do matter and have consequences. Let Obama have his mean spirited petty tax increases and extend the rest of the Bush tax cuts in a separate bill. Then fight hard not to allow an increase in the debt ceiling until the spending cuts become real. If they don’t extend the debt ceiling it will be messy but it will force Obama either to have the US default or actually cut spending. They will then have to explain that the country cannot keep consuming more than it produces and remain viable. If the people don’t understand it, then there really is no social consensus to preserve.


29 posted on 12/06/2012 8:16:12 PM PST by allendale
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To: Pinkbell

The tax increases are automatic Rand.

Start there.

The House should send the Senate a bill extending <=$250K and move on.


30 posted on 12/06/2012 8:38:00 PM PST by sickoflibs (Has Bohner caved yet? And called it historic again?)
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To: 1rudeboy

I agree. If the GOP don’t oppose Democrat legislation they are fully complicit in it—and that’s exactly how voters will rightly see it.


31 posted on 12/06/2012 8:46:22 PM PST by 9YearLurker
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To: 1rudeboy

SEN. RAND PAUL

I suspected this Moron was just as Crazy as His father....

He just proved it.

He wants to Let the economy Tank!!!??? and for thousands to loose their Jobs!!!!???? So He can blame the Democrats for it?

One thing is True...The Rich Have No Idea what it is like to Fear for your Future and your Family’s future when You are rich enough that you can slide over the disaster he wants to happen.

What a Stupid Man.


32 posted on 12/06/2012 8:51:29 PM PST by LtKerst
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To: 1rudeboy

SEN. RAND PAUL

I suspected this Moron was just as Crazy as His father....

He just proved it.

He wants to Let the economy Tank!!!??? and for thousands to loose their Jobs!!!!???? So He can blame the Democrats for it?

One thing is True...The Rich Have No Idea what it is like to Fear for your Future and your Family’s future when You are rich enough that you can slide over the disaster he wants to happen.

What a Stupid Man.


33 posted on 12/06/2012 8:51:29 PM PST by LtKerst
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To: 1rudeboy

SEN. RAND PAUL

I suspected this Moron was just as Crazy as His father....

He just proved it.

He wants to Let the economy Tank!!!??? and for thousands to loose their Jobs!!!!???? So He can blame the Democrats for it?

One thing is True...The Rich Have No Idea what it is like to Fear for your Future and your Family’s future when You are rich enough that you can slide over the disaster he wants to happen.

What a Stupid Man.


34 posted on 12/06/2012 8:51:33 PM PST by LtKerst
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To: C210N
We're talking perhaps life-changing financial devastation to some.

That's coming anyway. We are bleeding jobs. Capital can't leave this country fast enough. The rich can't get their money outta here quick enough. Prices are skyrocketing. Every trip to the grocery store is a horror show. Obama Care taxes and punishments are kicking in next year.

As the song says, "No one here gets out alive". Well, no one here makes it through this unscathed. The first four were the easy part, it's about to get real.

35 posted on 12/06/2012 8:52:25 PM PST by riri (Plannedopolis-look it up. It's how the elites plan for US to live.)
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To: Pinkbell

HELLOOO? HELLOOO? HEYYYY, HEYYYY, ANYONE THERE???
(what’s being done about benghazi?)


36 posted on 12/06/2012 8:52:32 PM PST by gotribe
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To: sickoflibs

How about passing a bill that makes the bush tax cuts permanent, with a 4 year temporary tax hike on people making over $500k. Reverse this back on the democrats. That revenue won’t make a dent in the deficit, and the GOP can draw the line on the debt ceiling.


37 posted on 12/06/2012 9:22:07 PM PST by MrShoop
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To: 1rudeboy

The so called cliff is a monster budget cut and probably the only way to reduce spending. I love it Why fight to ensure we spend more? Let it happen. Please

Military spending can use a trim too, and what’s needed can be restored later.


38 posted on 12/06/2012 9:58:33 PM PST by chiller (Do not consume any NBCNews;MTPTodayNightlyNewsMorningJoeMSNBCBrianWilliams)
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To: MrShoop
RE :”How about passing a bill that makes the bush tax cuts permanent, with a 4 year temporary tax hike on people making over $500k. Reverse this back on the democrats. That revenue won’t make a dent in the deficit, and the GOP can draw the line on the debt ceiling.”

It will never get to a vote in the Senate and it wont be reported.

See:
Here's what the Republican House must do on taxes right now, and what will happen if they don't (SOL | 12/7/12 | sickoflibs)

39 posted on 12/06/2012 10:06:01 PM PST by sickoflibs (Has Bohner caved yet? And called it historic again?)
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To: Pinkbell

And I was starting to like Rand Paul. No. Don’t get cute. Simple answer is: see a tax increase, vote no.


40 posted on 12/06/2012 11:04:10 PM PST by Behind the Blue Wall
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To: Pinkbell

They just need to Vote “Present”

It works for the “Won”

TT


41 posted on 12/07/2012 12:16:39 AM PST by TexasTransplant (Radical islam is islam. Moderate islam is the Trojan Horse.)
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To: 1rudeboy

I agree.
First of all, NO WAY, NO HOW should we allow taxes to be raised.
Period.

Secondly, there could be 100% unemployment, an all out Sudan-type civil war going on with total death and destruction in every neighborhood in America and the Obama-media would report that “It is all the fault of Republicans.”

So how in the world does Rand Paul think that “they will own it?” When the taxes go through the roof and jobs are lost, the media will simply blame Republicans.

No, taxes MUST NOT BE RAISED.


42 posted on 12/07/2012 3:41:54 AM PST by a real Sheila (R.I.P AMERICA 1776 - 2012)
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To: plain talk

“People that suggest this have not thought it through.”

Not true. There are 3 main scenarios here.

1. We go over the cliff. The media blames only repubs. just like they did with the financial crisis. This reinforces in the minds of the voters that repubs (particularly conservatives) are irresponsible fiscal terrorists. They will beat us to death with this for the next 50 years.

2. Repubs go along. Give the commie in chief what he wants (within reason) with a giant media event with all house and senate repubs to state that they are voting under protest for Obamas package to demonstrate that his policy will not work. The beauty of this is that we can end the debate about the impact of higher taxes on the economy. Like when you are dealing with an adult who wants to do something stupid and you cant talk him out of it, the only thing you can do is let him learn for himself. There is no better way to illustrate the failure of RAT economic policy. Furthermore since we state up front that we are letting this happen to demonstrate that it will not help the economy, it is not possible to credibly blame the repubs.

3. Repubs compromise. Things get worse or stay the same. Obama and media blame Repubs for not going far enough and limiting his brillant schemes. Shared blame but repubs get the brunt. Stalemate at best. The repubs continue to slide in the polls and electorate.


43 posted on 12/07/2012 4:52:15 AM PST by Brooklyn Attitude (Obama being re-elected is the political equivalent of OJ being found not guilty.)
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To: Brooklyn Attitude

The Republicans will compromise because they don’t have the votes to do otherwise. So #3 will happen. It may or may not happen after #1. To most FReepers #3 will look like #2 as it will look like Republicans are “going along” and it will be a cave to a certain extent.

If #2 is “give Obama what he wants” I’m sure how you do that. Obama is a marxist and there no end in sight for what he wants and no end to higher taxes. He wants a European model. he wants France. It is never over.

Whatever they do they need to find a way to illustrate basic economics to the public. Until they can explain where jobs come from all of this is meaningless BS. Cheers


44 posted on 12/07/2012 7:39:18 AM PST by plain talk
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To: Brooklyn Attitude
Give the commie in chief what he wants (within reason) with a giant media event with all house and senate repubs to state that they are voting under protest for Obamas package to demonstrate that his policy will not work.

But, what if the economy then gets better?

45 posted on 12/07/2012 7:45:44 AM PST by Tau Food (Never give a sword to a man who can't dance.)
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To: plain talk

“If #2 is “give Obama what he wants” I’m sure how you do that. Obama is a marxist and there no end in sight for what he wants and no end to higher taxes. He wants a European model. he wants France. It is never over.”

I meant give Obama what he wants on the fiscal cliff and maybe some other tax issues, not a pass on everything he wants. The key to this strategy is to openly state we know this will not work and we want to show the country it won’t work. I think this could be a game changer in proving that Repubs have a better understanding of economics than the RATs. Once that is established we can always bring the tax rates back to reasonable levels.


46 posted on 12/07/2012 7:48:42 AM PST by Brooklyn Attitude (Obama being re-elected is the political equivalent of OJ being found not guilty.)
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To: Tau Food

“But, what if the economy then gets better?”

Then maybe they were right on how to fix the economy. If you can raise taxes and the economy recovers faster and revenue increases that is a valuable lesson to learn. We should not be afraid to learn the truth either way.


47 posted on 12/07/2012 7:57:35 AM PST by Brooklyn Attitude (Obama being re-elected is the political equivalent of OJ being found not guilty.)
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To: Pinkbell

Doesn’t matter one way or the other.

Block the Democrats and they complain that the issue occurred because the ‘Pubbies wouldn’t let them raise taxes.

Allow it and they claim that everything failed because the ‘Pubbies didn’t come on board with some other hideously expensive and freedom crushing program.

And the media, being on the commies’ side will sell their story to the sheeple.

Block them all the way. It is the principled thing to do.


48 posted on 12/07/2012 8:24:27 AM PST by Little Ray (Get back to work. Your urban masters need their EBTs refilled.)
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To: riri
That's coming anyway.

Exactly...numbers do not lie. It can't be fixed. They needed to address this years ago, and chose to 'kick the can down the road'. The road was a dead end, and we have run out of road.

49 posted on 12/07/2012 8:30:47 AM PST by who knows what evil? (G-d saved more animals than people on the ark...www.siameserescue.org.)
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