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Auditing Shooting Rampage Statistics(Private Citizen vs Police Saves) ^ | 31 July, 2012 | Davi Barker

Posted on 12/09/2012 10:45:34 AM PST by marktwain

Firearm prohibitionists love to use tragedy to leverage their agenda. So, it’s important for gun rights advocates to stand their ground and fire back (proverbially) whenever this happens.

Last week I posted a graphic on Facebook claiming the average number of people killed in mass shootings when stopped by police is 18.25, and the average number of people killed in a mass shooting when stopped by civilians is 2.2. I based it on 10 shootings I found listed on some timeline somewhere. I honestly don’t even remember where. I presented the case studies in a blog post on the Silver Circle blog and I did the math myself.

The graphic was met with great enthusiasm and much skepticism. Leave it to Facebook users to demand an audit on a meme. So, I started over, only much more meticulous this time. I compiled and analyzed 93 shootings, noting my methodology, and I am now prepared to present my findings, complete with links to the data. But here’s a spoiler… It’s not that different.

The average number of people killed in mass shootings when stopped by police is 14.3

The average number of people killed in a mass shooting when stopped by a civilian is 2.3.

I was so close! Here’s what I think accounts for the difference. In the first sample there was likely a selection error based on what grabs headlines. Larger shootings get more press, so if you take a small sampling you’re going to be working with a data set of the worst shootings. As for the consistency of the civilian statistic, it makes perfect sense if you think about from inside the mind of a heroic civilian with a concealed carry permit. It goes something like this:

“Holy crap! that guy shot that other guy.” BANG!
“He’s just going to keep shooting people.” BANG!

And the shooter goes down.

Quite a few cases went something like that. In fact, I found only one example of a shooter stopped by civilians who killed more than 3 people. Jared Loughner killed 6 people in Tucson, Arizona before he was tackled by two civilians. Maybe it’d have been less if one of those two men were armed.

I want to be perfectly clear. I am not much of a firearms enthusiast. I don’t own a firearm. I’ve only ever been shooting twice. For me it’s not an issue of gun rights. It’s about property rights. A person has a natural right to own a hunk of iron in any damn shape they want, and they shouldn’t be criminalized until they use that hunk of iron to harm someone. People can argue crime statistics ’till they’re blue in face. I frankly don’t care about people’s ideas for managing society.

What I am is a math enthusiast, so without further delay, here’s how I arrived at these numbers.

Step One: Amassing a data set

I searched for timelines of shootings and selected 5 that appeared the most comprehensive.

1. Info Please
2. CNN
3. Denver Post
4. News Max
5. TruTV

While doing this I learned some important vocabulary. A “spree shooting” is when a killer murders in multiple locations with no break between murders. As in the Virginia Tech killer who began shooting in one hall, and then walked across campus and continued shooting in another hall. A “mass shooting” is when a killer murders multiple people, usually in a single location. As in the Fort Hood shooter who killed 13 people at one military base. A “school shooting” can be either of these as long as one or more locations is a school. As in the Columbine shooting, which is also classified as a spree shooting because they went from room to room. The term “rampage shooting” is used to describe all of these, and does not differentiate between them. So that is the term I’ll be using from here on out.

I selected these lists because they were the most comprehensive of those that I found, and I was seeking as large a data set as possible. I combined them all, including the first 10 from my previous post, and removed all redundant data for a total list of 93 shootings.

Step Two: Trimming irrelevant data.

While the list was comprehensive, the details about each shooting were not. In each shooting I had a date and a location, but often important details, like the number of people killed, or how the shooter was apprehended were missing. So, I set to the long task researching each incident to fill in the missing data. I didn’t incorporate the number of wounded people because so many were not reported. But the reason they call a single death a shooting rampage is because there were many injuries. All relevant data is contained in the links in the finished list below or in the timelines linked above. Most of the data came from either Wikipedia, a mainstream news article about the incident, or a handy resource I discovered called Murderpedia.

Next I removed incidents that did not fit within the scope of this analysis. Even though every incident on the list was a shooting, not every incident was a rampage shooting. So, I selected for incidents that included at least some indiscriminate targeting of bystanders. I removed incidents like Dedric Darnell Owens who shot and killed his classmate Kayla Rolland and then threw his handgun in a wastebasket. And I removed incidents like Michele Kristen Anderson who killed her entire family at a Christmas Party. So what remained were specifically rampage shootings in which a killer went someplace public and began firing at random people.

Suicide presented a tricky variable in the analysis. Roughly half of the remaining rampage shooters ended their own lives. So, I removed all incidents where the shooter killed themselves before police arrived reasoning that they had killed all they were going to kill and police had no impact in stopping them. Theoretically these incidents could have been stopped sooner by a civilian, but let’s not speculate. What I left in were incidents where shooters commit suicide after engaging the police, either during a shootout with police, or after a chase. I included, for example, Jiverly Wong, who witnesses say stopped shooting and killed himself as soon as he heard sirens but before police arrived, crediting the police’s response time with stopping the murders. But I did not include the shooters themselves in the total number of people killed.

I also removed cases like Edward Charles Allaway who shot up a library, then fled to a nearby hotel and called police to turn himself in, and cases like Darrell Ingram who shot up a high school dance and fled the scene only to be apprehended later after a long investigation. I was only looking for incidents when intervention from police or civilian saved lives.

What remained was 30 cases of gunmen firing indiscriminately whose rampage was cut short through the intervention of either a civilian or a police officer.

Step Three: The List

I divided the remaining cases into two categories, those stopped by police and those stopped by civilians. I included both armed and unarmed civilians for reasons that will become clear in the final analysis. I also removed one final case from the list. Dominick Maldonado went on a shooting rampage in a shopping mall in Tacoma, Washington, and although he ultimately surrendered to police he was confronted by two legally armed civilians who interrupted his shooting, but did not fire for fear of hitting innocent bystanders. So, I’m calling this one an assist from the civilians and taking it out of the analysis as an anomaly.

* 9/6/1949 - Howard Barton Unruh went on a shooting rampage in Camden, New Jersey with a German Luger. He shot up a barber shop, a pharmacy and a tailor’s shop killing 13 people. He finally surrendered after a shoot-out with police.

* 8/1/1966 - Charles Joseph Whitman climbed a tower at the University of Texas in Austin, Texas and began shooting at other students and faculty with a sniper rifle. He killed 16 people before being shot and killed by police.

* 7/18/1984 – James Oliver Huberty shot up a McDonalds in San Ysidro, California killing 21 people before police shoot and killed him.

* 10/16/1991 - George Hennard entered Luby’s Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas and began indiscriminately shooting the patrons. He killed 23 people in all. He commit suicide after being cornered and wounded in a shootout with police.

* 11/15/1995 – Jamie Rouse used a .22-caliber semi-automatic rifle to fire indiscriminately inside Richland High School in Lynnville, Tennessee. He killed 2 people before being tackled by a football player and a coach.

* 2/2/1996 - Barry Loukaitis entered Frontier Middle School in Moses Lake, Washington with a rifle and two handguns. He killed 3 people before the Gym teacher, Jon Lane grabbed the rifle and wrestled the gunman to the ground.

* 10/1/1997 - Luke Woodham put on a trench coat to conceal a hunting rifle and entered Pearl High School in Pearl, Mississippi. He killed 3 students before vice principal Joel Myrick apprehended him with a Colt .45 without firing.

* 12/1/1997 - Michael Carneal brought a pistol, two rifles and two shotguns to his high school in Paducah, Kentucky and opened fire on a small prayer group killing 3 girls. His rampage was halted when he was tackled by another student.

* 4/24/1998 - Andrew Wurst attended a middle school dance in Edinboro, Pennsylvania intent on killing a bully but shot wildly into the crowd. He killed 1 student. James Strand lived next door. When he heard the shots he ran over with his 12 gauge shotgun and apprehended the gunman without firing.

* 5/21/1998 - Kipland Kinkel entered Thurston High School in Springfield, Oregon with two pistols and a semi-automatic rifle hidden under a trench coat. He opened fire killing 2 students, but while reloading a wounded student named Jacob Ryker tackled him.

* 4/20/1999 - Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris were the killers behind the Columbine shooting in Littleton, Colorado. The two both commit suicide after police arrived, but what many people do not know is that the school’s armed security guard and the police all stood and waited outside the library while executions happed right inside. 15 people died, not including the shooters.

* 7/31/1999 - Mark Barton was a daytrader who went on a shooting rampage through two day trading firms in Atlanta, Georgia. He killed 12 people in all and after a police chase he was surrounded by police at a gas station where he commit suicide.

* 1/16/2002 – Peter Odighizuwa opened fire with a handgun at The Appalachian School in Grundy, Virginia. 3 people were killed before the shooter was apprehended by 3 students, Mikael Gross, Ted Besen, and Tracy Bridges with handguns without firing.

* 8/27/2003 – Salvador Tapia entered an auto parts store in Chicago, Illinois and shot and killed 6 people with a handgun. He then waged a gunbattle with police before a SWAT team fatally wounded him.

* 9/24/2003 – John Jason McLaughlin brought a .22-caliber pistol to Rocori High School in Cold Spring, Minnesota. He killed 2 people before PE teacher, Mark Johnson confronted him, disarmed him, and held him in the school office for police to arrive.

* 2/25/2005 – David Hernandez Arroyo Sr. opened fire on a public square from the steps of a courthouse in Tyler, Texas. The shooter was armed with an assault rifle and wearing body armor. Mark Wilson fired back with a handgun, hitting the shooter but not penetrating the armor. Mark drew the shooter’s fire, and ultimately drove him off, but was fatally wounded. Mark was the only death in this incident.

* 3/21/2005 – Jeff Weise was a student at Red Lake High School in Red Lake, Minnesota. He killed 7 people including a teacher and a security guard. When police cornered him inside the school, he shot and killed himself.

* 11/8/2005 – Kenneth Bartley, Jr. brought a .22 caliber pistol to Campbell County Comprehensive High School in Jacksboro, Tennessee and killed 1 person before being disarmed by a teacher.

* 9/29/2006 – Eric Hainstock brought a .22 caliber revolver and a 20-gauge shotgun into Weston High School in Cazenovia, Wisconson. He killed 1 person before staff and students apprehended him and held him until the police arrived.

* 4/16/2007 – Seung-Hui Cho was the shooter behind the Virgina Tech shooting in Blacksburg, Virginia. Police apprehend the wrong suspect allowing the shooter to walk across campus and open fire again in a second location. He eventually commit suicide after murdering 32 people.

* 9/3/2008 – Isaac Zamora went on a shooting rampage in Alger, Washington that killed 6 people, including a motorist shot during a high speed chase with police. He eventually surrendered to police.

* 3/29/2009 – Robert Stewart went on a killing rampage armed with a rifle, and a shotgun in a nursing home in Carthage, North Carolina. He killed 8 people and was apprehended after a shootout with police.

* 4/3/2009 – Jiverly Wong went on a shooting rampage at a American Civic Association immigration center in Binghamton, New York where he was enrolled in a citizenship class. 13 people were killed before the shooter killed himself. Witnesses say he turned the gun on himself as soon as he heard police sirens approaching.

* 11/5/2009 – Nidal Malik Hasan was the shooter behind the Fort Hood shooting at a military base just outside Killeen, Texas. The shooter entered the Soldier Readiness Processing Center, where personnel are disarmed, armed with a laser sighted pistol and a Smith & Wesson revolver. He killed 13 people before he was shot by a Civilian Police officer.

* 2/12/2010 – Amy Bishop went on a shooting rampage in classroom at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, Alabama. She killed 3 people before the Dean of the University, Debra Moriarity pushed the her out of the room and blockaded the door. She was arrested later.

* 1/8/2011 – Jared Lee Loughner is charged with the shooting in Tucson, Arizona that killed 6 people, including Chief U.S. District Court Judge John Roll. He was stopped when he was tackled by two civilians.

* 2/27/2012 – T.J. Lane entered Chardon High School in Chardon, Ohio with a handgun and started shooting. 3 students died. The shooter was chased out of the building by a teacher and apprehended by police later.

* 4/22/2012 – Kiarron Parker opened fire in a church parking lot in Aurora, Colorado. The shooter killed 1 person before being shot and killed by a member of the congregation who was carrying concealed.

* 7/20/2012 – James Holmes went into a crowded movie theater in Aurora, Colorado and opens fire with an AR-15 semi-automatic assault rifle. 12 people were killed, before the shooter surrendered to police.

Step Four: Final analysis

With 14 incidents stopped by police with a total of 200 dead that’s an average of about 14.3. With 15 incidents stopped by civilians and 35 dead that’s an average of 2.3.

The first point I want to draw your attention to is that roughly half of shooting rampages end in suicide anyway. What that means is that police are not even in a position to stop most of them. Only the civilians present at the time of the shooting have any opportunity to stop those shooters. That’s probably more important than the statistic itself. In a shooting rampage, counting on the police to intervene at all is a coin flip at best.

Second, within the civilian category 10 of the 15 shootings were stopped by unarmed civilians. What’s amazing about that is that whether armed or not, when a civilian plays hero it seems to save a lot of lives. The courthouse shooting in Tyler, Texas was the only incident where the heroic civilian was killed. In that incident the hero was armed with a handgun and the villain was armed with an assault rifle and body armor. If you compare the average of people killed in shootings stopped by armed civilians and unarmed civilians you get 1.8 and 2.6, but that’s not nearly as significant as the difference between a proactive civilian, and a cowering civilian who waits for police.

So, given that far less people die in rampage shootings stopped by a proactive civilian, only civilians have any opportunity to stop rampage shootings in roughly half of incidents, and armed civilians do better on average than unarmed civilians, wouldn’t you want those heroic individuals who risk their lives to save others to have every tool available at their disposal?

TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: banglist; citizen; columbine; forthood; guncontrol; massshooting; save; seunghuicho; spreeshooting; vatech
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A very interesting analysis that will never be shown on the MSM.
1 posted on 12/09/2012 10:45:45 AM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain
Still, it sounds quite logical and pulling this answer out of the MSM reports suggests it is, in fact, the only analysis that counts ~ since this is the only set of circumstances too complex for the 'newsies' to distort prior to analysis.

A few weeks back we had a discussion of a road rage incident where a woman pulled off the road and the guy didn't give up so she shot him through the window. Several reasons for her doing that, one of which was 'fear' ~ but how often does that happen where a strange man comes knocking on a car window and it doesn't end up in a shooting?

Two ways to do that ~ man knocks on window shoots woman or man knocks on window woman shoots ~ incredibly the second version where he knocks and she shoots shows 39 million google entries. The first version where he knocks and then shoots her shows a mere 21 million entries.

holy smolly

It's pretty clear that if you find yourself knocking on the window of a car and there's a woman in there you have double the chance of her shooting you than of you shooting her.

So, how much fear is there in that?

I'm sure the analyst who wrote the lead piece could do quite a job on this issue just like he did on the question of cops stopping serious rampages.

2 posted on 12/09/2012 11:33:31 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: marktwain

The reason for the disparity (citizens vs cops) is that there are more of us around than there are cops.

One study I’d like to see is how many mass shooting occur in “gun free” (aka free fire) zones as opposed to other areas.

I also find it interesting that these situations never happen at trap and skeet ranges or rifle ranges.... In fact the incidence of crime at skeet ranges is so low that I don’t even lock my truck when I shoot.

3 posted on 12/09/2012 11:38:04 AM PST by (Was Orwell wrong about anything besides the date?)
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To: Joe Brower


4 posted on 12/09/2012 11:43:14 AM PST by Petruchio (I Think . . . Therefor I FReep.)
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To: marktwain
Jared Loughner killed 6 people in Tucson, Arizona before he was tackled by two civilians. Maybe it’d have been less if one of those two men were armed.

A third man did arrive armed.

Joseph Zimudie - Tucson Concealed Carry Hero

5 posted on 12/09/2012 12:12:29 PM PST by BerryDingle (I know how to deal with communists, I still wear their scars on my back from Hollywood-Ronald Reagan)
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To: muawiyah

Here is another one for your list.

Killed 8,m wounded 12

6 posted on 12/09/2012 12:16:19 PM PST by LowNslow (Retired CWO)
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To: BerryDingle

Correction: Joe Zamudio

7 posted on 12/09/2012 12:24:05 PM PST by BerryDingle (I know how to deal with communists, I still wear their scars on my back from Hollywood-Ronald Reagan)
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To: marktwain
Liberals are ridiculous on the subject.

A man is at home, and a thug comes to kill or injure him. He produces a gun and the thug suddenly wants to go somewhere else. Liberals accept this, but only begrudgingly.

The same man might be in a public area, and the same thug wants to kill or injure him, but the liberals don't want the man to be able to defend himself by means of a firearm.

My question to the liberals is this: What makes the protection from death or injury more important at a home than in a public area? It's the same person, and the same need for self preservation!

8 posted on 12/09/2012 12:25:18 PM PST by Enterprise ("Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire)
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To: marktwain

It would behoove everyone to read up and study these facts to be prepared for the next mass-shooting – because you can bet your bippy that the gun grabbers are getting prepared in their own little freedom destroying ways.

It would not surprise me to find out that the gun grabbers already have their talking points and press releases written just waiting to fill in the blanks with the details of the next shooting.

I imagine they have their own cold calculus on such tragedies on how much of our freedom they can destroy based on the number killed and wounded and the types of hardware involved.

5-10 dead – banning of specific items like so-called ‘high capacity’ magazines. [Whatever the h.. ‘high capacity’ means]

10 – 20 dead - banning of certain types of weapons – handguns, so-called “Assault weapons” [regardless if said weapons were involved with said shooting]

20 –30 dead – major legislation degrading out right of self-defense – the banning of private sales, the expansion of registration, etc.

Of course, with the dear liar theoretically ensconced in the White House for another 4 years those values may be a bit high – with his Excellency unworried about getting re-selected, they may try for what they think they can get with even lower values.

9 posted on 12/09/2012 12:45:05 PM PST by Voice of Reason1 (Absolute power corrupts absolutely Lord Acton 1887)
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To: marktwain
This is a very interesting summary of such statistics. However, the author of the piece does not seem to account for the first (and very puzzling) of the high school type rampages that occurred in the small city of Olean, NY (my birthplace) on December 30, 1974. A 17-year-old honor student and match-calibre (no pun) rifle team star, Anthony Barbaro, took his position on the 3rd floor of the closed-for-holidays high school, and with his .30-06 rifle mowed down 3 adults and wounded 11 others before surrendering to some 50 city police, New York State Troopers, and National Guardsmen.

Almost 30 years later, the commentator Erica Carle wrote a pithy, pungent and piercing review on the probability of the nationwide malignant twisting of high school civics and moral indoctrination to induce suicidal views in these immature, tender minds, in her article SHOOTING RAMPAGES: WHY DO CHILDREN KILL?. This extremely interesting assessment of the state of high school (and certainly college-level) cultural integration shewed her prescient predictions of such tragedies as arising out of the educational bent which practically forces the children into self-destructive attitudes and practices.

I strongly recommend that anyone undertaking to support the private possession of guns as defensive devices really ought to read Carle's treatise, remember it, and post it to others. She has intimated what I've already said myself on this, that the Columbine massacre and that at Virginia Tech were simply the victims of fool-headed institutions being simply defrauded, depressed, and distraught students wreaking the wrath of their instruction-ingrained hopelessness on the systems producing their mindset.

In fact, if we continue to permit the training of a civilian population into such a predominant self-centered, values-free worldview, then leaving them unrestricted access to deadly weapons is simply asking for a far-greater likelihood of rampages, at school, at work, at recreation and relaxation venues, in shopping plazas, etc. And this is why the Anti-Gun propagandizers are exactly correct, because they know whast they are creating, and are seeking to prevent the broadly morally insensitive consitituency which is now fully maturing and becoming very effective in setting up these vile terroristic activities. And eventually, they will not be striving to maintain right-to-life for babes, children, or adults; they will prevail over we, the reactionaries, to establish anarchy over us.

I believe that pro-gun, Second Amendment protagonists must at the same time incorporate an overwhelming and persistent First Amendment attack aimed toward training up a Godly culture by torpedoing the current humanistic, atheistic and/or islamistic, racistic, unionistic domination of public education, while there still is a chance. And do it now.

If this is not done, any vestige of a society prevalently upholding the Old Constitution and Our Founder's Primary Values is done for.

10 posted on 12/09/2012 1:14:33 PM PST by imardmd1 (... let such as love their salvation say continually, "The LORD be magnified!" (Ps. 40:16b))
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To: imardmd1

The reason your shooting is not on the list,is because it is likely not included in the author’s sources. It is pre-internet.

11 posted on 12/09/2012 1:35:43 PM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain

Fascinating article. Interesting that so many of the shooters were stopped by civilians that were unarmed.

Let’s Roll, so to speak.

12 posted on 12/09/2012 1:43:12 PM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: marktwain
Occasionally the police get it right too. Here is the timeline for the Emcore Shooting in Albuquerque.

After studying other shootings, APD policy is to swarm the site with any and all available officers. The theory is that the introduction of armed officers takes the initiative away from the shooter.

13 posted on 12/09/2012 1:51:08 PM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: imardmd1

Isn’t that simply blaming the results of these trends on inanimate objects that had nothing to do with how children are raised these days?

If you could wave a magic wand and rid the world of guns, there would still be edged weapons by which death and destruction could be wrought.

If not edged weapons then fire or explosive could be used to create these massacres.

Why can’t we address the root of the problem instead of resorting to band aide liberty destroying solutions that have nothing to do with the original cause?

Firearms aren’t exactly a new technology – why haven’t there bee any of those mass shootings 60 –80 –120 years ago?

14 posted on 12/09/2012 2:07:15 PM PST by HammerT (The Obama Recession, you bone it you own it.)
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To: HammerT; All
Firearms aren’t exactly a new technology – why haven’t there bee any of those mass shootings 60 –80 –120 years ago?

You are correct. I believe it is because of degradation in moral upbringing, mostly relating to the destruction of the black family and its Christian roots. The lower income family of other cultures will follow if it continues long enough.

15 posted on 12/09/2012 4:53:04 PM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain

I must correct my last post. Most mass school shootings are not by black children,but they dominate overall homicide figures for children.

16 posted on 12/09/2012 5:06:07 PM PST by marktwain
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To: HammerT
Isn’t that simply blaming the results of these trends on inanimate objects that had nothing to do with how children are raised these days?

No! the thrust in my comment is not about guns being causitive, its about the changing worldview of values of their owners who accept widespread killing of unborn baby humans and want polite society to be rid of The God of the Bible and His ridiculous ten No-Nos. In my 1950s you never thought about packing heat unless you lived in Spanish Harlem (Bronx), or near South State Street in Chicago (esp after dark). Now you do -- who you gonna worry 'bout dissin' today, hunh? whatcha gonna do when they come 4 you, bad boy? --

Why can’t we address the root of the problem instead of resorting to band aide liberty destroying solutions that have nothing to do with the original cause?

That's what my comment on this is about -- got it? We are coming to the point where we are so terrorized that either everybody carries, or nobody carries -- thanks to our humanist bent in the classroom -- and in the 'hood.

Firearms aren’t exactly a new technology – why haven’t there bee any of those mass shootings 60 –80 –120 years ago?

I think you are totally missing the thrust of my comment. The reason we didn't have mass school shootings 50 plus years ago was that children had not yet been robbed of meaning and hope for the future by their ego-flattening public school "education" in morals and values. When we relieved them of any hope for the future, they began shooting back, dontcha see?

Please find it very illuminating by reading the cited article by Erica Carle, OK?

17 posted on 12/09/2012 11:34:17 PM PST by imardmd1 (... let such as love their salvation say continually, "The LORD be magnified!" (Ps. 40:16b))
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To: marktwain

• “Multiple Victim Public Shootings, Bombings,and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handgun Laws.”
A Study by Profs. John Lott and William Landes

How do Multiple Victim Public Shooters Decide Where to Attack?
basically an armed defender (“good guy”) is the only thing stopping these freaks (other than if/when they kill themselves)

18 posted on 12/14/2012 4:28:51 PM PST by TurboZamboni (Looting the future to bribe the present)
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To: marktwain

Ronald Gene Simmons. Dover Arkansas

But then we must weigh them against other mass murderers like Julio Gonzalez who burned out the Happyland Dance Club,
or Tim McVeigh who used a bomb, or 19 arabs with boxcutters...

19 posted on 12/14/2012 5:26:30 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (SAVE THE SUMATRAN RAT MONKEY!)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar


20 posted on 12/14/2012 5:52:46 PM PST by publius911 (Look for the Union Label -- then buy something else)
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