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George Will: “Opposition to Gay Marriage is Dying—It’s Old People”
Cybercast News Service ^ | December 10, 2012 | Pete Winn

Posted on 12/10/2012 5:39:44 PM PST by Olog-hai

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To: Olog-hai

If any good can be gleaned from the erosion of the traditional societal values over the last decades, it would have to be the unmasking of liberals who have walked around masquerading as conservatives the whole time.


51 posted on 12/10/2012 6:41:34 PM PST by SpaceBar
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To: ansel12

Yes, it’s moved hard to the left since Clinton, Clinton, Bush, Bush, Obama, Obama. That’s 24 years of boomer governance. By 2016, boomers would have been in power almost twice as long as FDR. Enough is enough.


52 posted on 12/10/2012 6:43:30 PM PST by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind. - John Steinbeck :))
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To: JCBreckenridge

“So we should just give up and stop trying?”

Not at all. I voted for the amendment in my state. It passed by 57% or so. But I think that it probably won’t matter eventually. With the state involved, at least in the modern era, the definition it uses to recognize the institution is simply whatever judges, pols, or the majority think it is at anyone time. That’s it, that’s all it ever will be. It could coincide with the actual definition, or it could be an impossibility like ‘gay marriage.’ And with the state involved, it can and will punish those faiths when they disagree with whatever the state decides to call marriage at the time. Pope Leo XIII saw it coming 130 years ago.

“This is the boomers rebelling against their parents one last time. Once the boomers are gone, who’s left to champion this?”

Hey, I hope you are correct. But looking at the amendments, when and where they passed, and by how much, I’m not seeing a positive trend.

Freegards


53 posted on 12/10/2012 6:44:36 PM PST by Ransomed
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To: ilgipper
There's also a third aspect. As the number of laws multiply, and more of our activities become compelled or forbidden, there's a compensatory lunge for freedom - particularly in the personal-lifestyle area. You can't really peg that as libertarian, because many of the lungers would flat-out reject the libertarian alternative.

If you're in chains and the chains are chafing, seeing someone else's chain cut can provide a psychological boost. That's why prisoners cheer on (and even help) escapees even though they themselves are not one iota freer as a result. If society is overlawed into becoming a kind of prison, you'll see the same attitude in the general public.

Unfortunately, in too many cases, freedom-lungers are reacting emotionally rather than acting rationally.

54 posted on 12/10/2012 6:45:06 PM PST by danielmryan
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To: Olog-hai
Sounds like something a poofter would say to me.

Just sayin'...

55 posted on 12/10/2012 6:47:11 PM PST by OKSooner
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To: Ransomed

“But I think that it probably won’t matter eventually”

Where’s the money going to come to pay and prop up this nonsense? We’re broke. The gay marriage folks know this. They know that once the government is bankrupt the show is over for them, because nobody’s going to listen to them anymore.

There are plenty of us young folks who have had this ‘gay is good’ crap shoved down our throats by our parents and I’ve even been sent to a therapist to ‘correct’ me.

I know there are plenty of conservative freepers out there - but surely you see our frustration with your colleagues? The same hippy morons you dealt with in the past? I live with two of them right now (no running hot water because they can’t get their shit together to pay their damn bills.)


56 posted on 12/10/2012 6:53:06 PM PST by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind. - John Steinbeck :))
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To: SoothingDave

Hey Dave! How’ve ya been?!

Cowboys v. Stillers? Tough call. Last one with the ball blows the lead?


57 posted on 12/10/2012 6:58:28 PM PST by al_c (http://www.blowoutcongress.com)
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To: Olog-hai

George Will may be right, but that does not change reality. Even if the government pretends that two men or two women can get married, that will not make these relationships real marriages.


58 posted on 12/10/2012 6:58:57 PM PST by Pollster1 (Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. - Ronald Reagan)
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To: JCBreckenridge

I think that most of us agree that America was destroyed in the radical takeover by the left made from about 1935 to 1979.

Since then the left has run into serious opposition, and their gains have been smaller, and based on their biggest gain of all, the 1965 Immigration Act.


59 posted on 12/10/2012 7:00:56 PM PST by ansel12 (A.Coulter2005(truncated)Romney will never recover from his Court's create of a right to gay marriage)
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To: Pollster1

I certainly don’t believe he’s right. Plenty of opposition to gay marriage and the gay lifestyle among the young and even younger. The libs are still not in an overwhelming majority, if majority at all.


60 posted on 12/10/2012 7:02:02 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: ansel12

True, but the biggest damage of all just happened on our watch, with Obamacare. It’s bigger than all that Wilson and FDR did, put together.


61 posted on 12/10/2012 7:03:28 PM PST by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind. - John Steinbeck :))
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To: JCBreckenridge

You skipped over the biggest point of all.

Do you really believe that America will become more conservative as the voters age 48 to 66 die off?


62 posted on 12/10/2012 7:03:48 PM PST by ansel12 (A.Coulter2005(truncated)Romney will never recover from his Court's create of a right to gay marriage)
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To: Olog-hai; victim soul; Isabel2010; Smokin' Joe; Michigander222; PJBankard; scottjewell; ebb tide; ..
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.


63 posted on 12/10/2012 7:04:19 PM PST by narses
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To: Olog-hai; victim soul; Isabel2010; Smokin' Joe; Michigander222; PJBankard; scottjewell; ebb tide; ..
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.


64 posted on 12/10/2012 7:05:04 PM PST by narses
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To: Olog-hai

Ok Mr Propoganda George Will.

FYI, my gay brother, who married his gay partner, is dead from AIDS.

My dead gay brother’s twin brother also has recently contracted AIDS and is in treatment and is going to die early from homosexual behavior.

The only gift of homosexuality and gay marriage in my family is illness and early death from AIDS, for my two younger brothers.

Well, that is not counting the homo gay marriage thing wrecking my church, which has not been too nifty.

American media made gay ok. It is not, however, what God intended. Homosexuality brings pain, illness, death, and abomination.


65 posted on 12/10/2012 7:06:50 PM PST by FlyingEagle
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To: Olog-hai

-— If there were not divorce, then no custody battles and property disputes, yes?-—

A man and a woman have a baby. The woman runs off with the child. Should the state step in?

If the man refuses to support the woman and child, should the state step in?

The list of potential injustices is endless.


66 posted on 12/10/2012 7:07:50 PM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: ansel12

Yes, I do. I said that already. Many of us have seen our parents divorce. Most of my generation is poorer than our parents, having fewer opportunities. The money that we do make is worth less, we paid much more for our education.

There’s a real hunger for authentic conservatives. Then we watch the boomers put up Mitt Romney.

If the Republicans aren’t careful, they are going to lose a whole generation of people who are disaffected with Obama’s policies. All I keep seeing from Boehner and McConnell, is that they are perfectly happy to lose and to go along with Obama’s agenda rather then fight. They want to dump the bill they have ran up on us.

By necessity this next generation is going to be more conservative, if for anything, because of the fact that we have to pick through the rubbish that yours has left behind.

I have more credentials now than either of my parents had when they were my age. My mother was a teacher, and my father also taught as well. I find that I need even more than what my mother needed to get an admin position, despite the fact this is for an entry-level position teaching job.

So what are we supposed to think? We want to work and make money, but you boomers won’t let us.


67 posted on 12/10/2012 7:09:07 PM PST by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind. - John Steinbeck :))
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To: JCBreckenridge

Not anywhere close to true, look at the legislation that was passed from 1935 to 1980.

There was one piece that was the fatal bullet, one that has already destroyed us, and from which there is no recovery from, JFK’s long desired 1965 Immigration Act, that was passed on his death.

The election of JFK was the end of America, Vietnam, the 60s, LBJ, government unions, and the fatal pill of immigration.

JFK was the end of us.

“However, if there is one man who can take the most credit for the 1965 act, it is John F. Kennedy. Kennedy seems to have inherited the resentment his father Joseph felt as an outsider in Boston’s WASP aristocracy.
He voted against the McCarran-Walter Act of 1952, and supported various refugee acts throughout the 1950s. In 1958 he wrote a book, A Nation of Immigrants, which attacked the quota system as illogical and without purpose, and the book served as Kennedy’s blueprint for immigration reform after he became president in 1960.
In the summer of 1963, Kennedy sent Congress a proposal calling for the elimination of the national origins quota system. He wanted immigrants admitted on the basis of family reunification and needed skills, without regard to national origin. After his assassination in November, his brother Robert took up the cause of immigration reform, calling it JFK’s legacy.
In the forward to a revised edition of A Nation of Immigrants, issued in 1964 to gain support for the new law, he wrote, “I know of no cause which President Kennedy championed more warmly than the improvement of our immigration policies.”
Sold as a memorial to JFK, there was very little opposition to what became known as the Immigration Act of 1965.”


68 posted on 12/10/2012 7:11:24 PM PST by ansel12 (A.Coulter2005(truncated)Romney will never recover from his Court's create of a right to gay marriage)
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To: JCBreckenridge

Good Lord, if you think that conservatism will advance once the over 50 voters die out, man are you in for an education.


69 posted on 12/10/2012 7:16:00 PM PST by ansel12 (A.Coulter2005(truncated)Romney will never recover from his Court's create of a right to gay marriage)
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To: Olog-hai

The Romans thought it was OK. They are really old people.


70 posted on 12/10/2012 7:16:58 PM PST by cruise_missile
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To: JCBreckenridge

“Where’s the money going to come to pay and prop up this nonsense?

Fines and lawsuits for those who won’t go along with whatever the state is calling marriage at the time? That’s probably what they are thinking.

“There are plenty of us young folks who have had this ‘gay is good’ crap shoved down our throats by our parents and I’ve even been sent to a therapist to ‘correct’ me.”

Looks like they didn’t ‘succeed,’ which seems like a good thing from what you describe.

“I know there are plenty of conservative freepers out there - but surely you see our frustration with your colleagues?”

If anyone thinks ‘gay marriage’ is a positive thing, they are deluding themselves. If anyone thinks that the state defines marriage, I will simply disagree with them.

Freegards


71 posted on 12/10/2012 7:18:20 PM PST by Ransomed
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To: Olog-hai
Seems like a lot of things are dying these days:
  1. Our Families
  2. Our Churches
  3. Our Nation
  4. The Economy
  5. The GOP
  6. George Will's Relevance...

It is "getting old."

Psalm 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

72 posted on 12/10/2012 7:19:56 PM PST by Theophilus (Not merely prolife, but prolific)
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To: ansel12

The greatest opposition I have had as a teacher has come from boomer parents. I’m just telling you the facts.


73 posted on 12/10/2012 7:23:40 PM PST by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind. - John Steinbeck :))
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To: Ransomed

“Fines and lawsuits for those who won’t go along with whatever the state is calling marriage at the time? That’s probably what they are thinking.”

That might buy them a little time to keep their train running, but that doesn’t avert the major problems. It probably exacerbates them by encouraging people to do stuff “out of the public eye”.

“Looks like they didn’t ‘succeed,’ which seems like a good thing from what you describe.”

Nope. I met some very solid young men and women at university and they set me straight.

Thank you sir, there is hope - but we just need the boomers to let us take a crack at things.


74 posted on 12/10/2012 7:26:48 PM PST by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind. - John Steinbeck :))
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To: Olog-hai
This thread contains plenty of "blame the messenger" without any "here's the evidence that the message is wrong."

I don't particularly trust the source, but when I went looking for recent data, this is what came up:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2012/12/05/poll-from-gay-marriage-to-adoption-attitudes-changing-fast/1748873/

In the new survey, the only age group in which a majority opposes same-sex marriage are those 65 and older, and the only region with majority opposition is the South.

That supports what Will said. Where is the evidence to the contrary?

75 posted on 12/10/2012 7:27:33 PM PST by TChad
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To: Olog-hai

Well, Mr. Will, I’m not particularly old. But I do not forget what my father and grandfather told me. I do not forget the laws laid down by my God, who rightly terms these practices as abominations, because that is what they are- violations of His natural order and natural law. ESAD, Mr. Will- along with the other appeasers who want to throw in the towel and call evil good.


76 posted on 12/10/2012 7:29:06 PM PST by GenXteacher (You have chosen dishonor to avoid war; you shall have war also.)
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To: svcw
Most of the young people I know (under 35, think that the government has no business in the marriage business....

Most of the young people under 35 are not getting married anymore either. To them, nobody has any business in the marriage business.

Gay marriage is not the birth of a new civil right, it is another nail in the coffin in the attempted live burial of the most ancient and enduring social bond, instituted by God and ultimately furiously and overwhelmingly defended and avenged by Him.

Matthew 19:6
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

77 posted on 12/10/2012 7:31:55 PM PST by Theophilus (Not merely prolife, but prolific)
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To: TChad

By asking for the “evidence to the contrary”, you imply that you do trust the source.

And if this were a one-time or one-issue thing out of Mr. Will, it may be considered an anomaly. But it is not.


78 posted on 12/10/2012 7:34:58 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Strategerist
Will is getting old and funky and slow witted. The polls don't work anymore. PEW says pollsters typically get barely a 9% response rate. That's such a low number that if homosexuals simply bother responding 100% of the time, they amplify their opinion 11X.

That's why polls show support for gay marriage and referenda show no support for gay marriage.

This poll separating older people from younger people does little more than support the idea that polls can't be trusted anymore. Of course older people oppose gay marriage ~ but due to their remarkably shorter lifespans, there are no old gays to distort that answer. However, with most gays being quite young, they probably cast much more than an 11X shadow ~ possibly 15X!

The Supreme Court might tell us biological pair bonding is not a good guide to the ordering of society, but what do they know.

BTW, you disputed me on this with the Romney polls. As I recall you thought he was winning ~ based on polls showing him ahead, and I thought the polls were all cr*p and could not be trusted.

With the homosexual community supporting Romney ~ their big buddy since gay marriage days ~ their inordinate dominance of Gallup polls made it look like Romney was winning ~ but he lost!

79 posted on 12/10/2012 7:40:24 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Theophilus

pair bonding is biological in origin. God’s supposed to be involved in creating biology ~ whether marriage is a social belief is up in the air, but pair bonding is cold, hard fact!


80 posted on 12/10/2012 7:42:20 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: JCBreckenridge

“Yes, it’s moved hard to the left since Clinton, Clinton, Bush, Bush, Obama, Obama. That’s 24 years of boomer governance. By 2016, boomers would have been in power almost twice as long as FDR. Enough is enough.”

In four years (2016) boomers will be 52 to 70 year of age.

They dodn’t elect Obama, younger people did.


81 posted on 12/10/2012 7:44:27 PM PST by truth_seeker
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To: Olog-hai

These so called conservative commentators sit around inside the beltway and rationalize the Dim talking points they hear from all their neighbors. It is just possible that the current young will in fact grow up, mature and end up adopting many of the views that the current mature grownups in society have.


82 posted on 12/10/2012 7:45:26 PM PST by JLS
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To: Olog-hai
By asking for the “evidence to the contrary”, you imply that you do trust the source.

Sorry, that's wrong. Whoever the messenger is, either the message is correct or it is not. If Barack Obama said that 2+2=4, the facts would be on his side and I would say that he was correct. That would not mean that I trusted the source.

83 posted on 12/10/2012 7:47:22 PM PST by TChad
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Comment #84 Removed by Moderator

To: JCBreckenridge
Did I wring my hands in despair and declare: "Oh, woe is us - George Will is right!"? No. I expanded on someone else's post about our statist politicians and equated them with the expansionist leaders of militant Islam (a valid comparison, IMO, considering how many of them are seeking to align us with Shari'a law). Both groups want to have absolute control over the people.

Where exactly did you see "surrender" in that?

85 posted on 12/10/2012 7:49:50 PM PST by Charles Martel (Endeavor to persevere...)
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To: TChad

False analogy.

The “source” was a USA Today/Gallup poll; polls do not translate to facts. (We certainly saw that in the last election.)


86 posted on 12/10/2012 7:51:27 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Charles Martel

The fact that you don’t believe in defending the English Common Law. Martel fought to defend Christian civilization from the Muslims. That includes defending Christian marriage between one man and one woman, and here you are, undermining that effort.

Martel would never believe that someone with his name would advocate tearing down Christian civilization. The government has the obligation to preserve the common law, which includes Habeaus Corpus, Trial by Jury and marriage between one man and one woman, all things that Sharia despises.

You aren’t the enemy of Islam, you’re a collaborator.


87 posted on 12/10/2012 7:54:30 PM PST by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind. - John Steinbeck :))
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To: truth_seeker

“They dodn’t elect Obama, younger people did.”

You’ll find more Boomer ballots for Obama than you’ll find younger people. In 2008, more Boomers voted for Obama than against him, so yes, Boomers delivered America to Obama.


88 posted on 12/10/2012 7:56:52 PM PST by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind. - John Steinbeck :))
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To: ansel12

Nope, Obamacare is worse.

Obamacare will ruin the US just like Europe. I agree those bills were bad, but Obamacare is worse.


89 posted on 12/10/2012 8:00:47 PM PST by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind. - John Steinbeck :))
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To: Olog-hai

“Gay Rights” is the younger generation’s cause celebre, its civil rights issue of utmost importance. Anecdotal as it may be, I don’t know one person 30 and under who isn’t in favor of ‘gay marriage.’ That would include my own offspring, their friends, younger people I’ve worked with and around. They all seem to favor what is called ‘gay marriage.’


90 posted on 12/10/2012 8:11:17 PM PST by EDINVA
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To: Paradox

But it’s unnatural and serves no purpose other than sexual gratification...
There will always be an ick factor because we were not meant to have this kind of relationship...
Will can say anything he wants and our society may”accept” it but it will never be the same as heterosexual marriage...


91 posted on 12/10/2012 8:11:17 PM PST by matginzac
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To: JCBreckenridge

You aren’t giving anyone facts, you are describing your own take from work, and people who question you.

I don’t think that you realize how different the over 48 year old vote is from the younger vote, regardless of who challenges you the most as parents.

You also don’t realize that immigration has already destroyed us and was a stake through the heart from which we can never recover, because the Americans that you look forward to dying off, are being replaced by loyal liberals who will never become republican, tens of millions of them, an endless supply of them, that is what JFK gave to America, it’s electoral death.


92 posted on 12/10/2012 8:19:03 PM PST by ansel12 (A.Coulter2005(truncated)Romney will never recover from his Court's create of a right to gay marriage)
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To: Olog-hai

Homos are a fringe group of psychologically demented self destructive dead enders exalted to civil rights victim status by the loony left.


93 posted on 12/10/2012 8:21:41 PM PST by TADSLOS (No need to watch the movie "Idiocracy". We're living it.)
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To: muawiyah

“That’s why ... referenda show no support for gay marriage.”

Well then, how do you explain the votes of the states of Maryland, Maine, and Washington state?

Did they show “no support”?


94 posted on 12/10/2012 8:21:45 PM PST by Road Glide
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To: JCBreckenridge
You interpreted all of *that* - a desire to leave Common Law to wither and die, to undermine Christian marriage, an overall ADVOCACY of the defeat of Christian civilization, and that I'm a collaborator, in league with the Islamists - ALL of that... from my brief post? From my simple equating of domestic evil with foreign evil?

Wow.

I often think that teachers, as a group, are treated more poorly around here than is their due. Then I read something like this, which suggests that those harsh (if general) criticisms may just be on-target.

God help your students.

95 posted on 12/10/2012 8:41:47 PM PST by Charles Martel (Endeavor to persevere...)
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To: JCBreckenridge

“You’ll find more Boomer ballots for Obama than you’ll find younger people. In 2008, more Boomers voted for Obama than against him, so yes, Boomers delivered America to Obama.”

You can easily prove that?


96 posted on 12/10/2012 8:58:37 PM PST by truth_seeker
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To: Olog-hai
False analogy.

No, it was a perfectly good analogy. Let's go back to your post #78:

By asking for the “evidence to the contrary”, you imply that you do trust the source.

You can't defend that, it is obviously wrong. The message can be evaluated without considering the messenger.

My point was not to defend Mr. Will, but to point out that his critics here did not bother to present any evidence that he was wrong.

...polls do not translate to facts

They often do. The final Gallup poll before the election showed Romney 49%, Obama 48%. Not bad, and not biased against Romney.

If there is a good quality poll showing that young people oppose gay marriage, I'd love to see it.

That Gallup gay marriage poll data is in line with my personal experience. I live near a college, and I talk to a lot of college students. I would guess the percentage of students I talk to who are in favor of gay marriage at about 70%. To them it is a civil rights issue. I disagree with them, but that's not the point. The point is that they are young and that's what they believe. Of course, that's just personal, anecdotal evidence. High quality polls provide better quality data.

At this point I suppose I am obliged to to state clearly that I oppose gay marriage and I hope the Gallup poll is wrong. However, unlike posters here, I am not going to criticize Will for reporting bad data unless I have evidence that it is bad.

97 posted on 12/10/2012 9:09:52 PM PST by TChad
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To: TChad
Eh? Gallup always oversampled Dems. The election continues to be suspect.

This present state of being is not the will of the people. There is no uniformity of opinion among colleges and college students either. (What college, incidentally?)
98 posted on 12/10/2012 9:16:52 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: SpaceBar

Almost 2500 years ago, Alexander conquered the known world. Today, my young son, deployed by the Army in Afghanistan, reports that the Tribal leaders have their “sex pets,” and there is something about Thursday where men hold hands in an intimate fashion. Since he had a classic education. He said “Dad, they’re all pederasts.”

Early Christians wanted to purify and differentiate themselves, and wanted to rid their lives of the Roman/Greek culture. Jesus was radical in that he elevated women in his movement.


99 posted on 12/10/2012 9:27:13 PM PST by calico_thompson
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To: Olog-hai

The “young people” will become old and many will change their minds as they age.

I was all for homo everything until I was 21.


100 posted on 12/10/2012 9:36:08 PM PST by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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