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(CT shooting) "Give teachers guns": US blogs awash with people calling for more people to be armed
mirror.co.uk ^ | 16 December, 2012 | Anton Antonowicz

Posted on 12/16/2012 7:32:04 AM PST by marktwain

SCREAMING mums at schools, dads cradling children... it’s all too familiar to those of us who live in the United States.

Hours after the latest outrage the internet was awash with the unapologetic views of those who live and die by the gun.

Take this: “No crime would be permitted on my property because I am f****** armed. I can’t wait to kill someone ­legally.”

Or this from Alan ­Gottlieb, head of the pro-gun 2nd Amendment Foundation: “There was nobody in that school allowed a firearm. I find that deplorable. I’m sure Lanza felt he could go in ­because no one had a gun.”

It’s insane. Insane to think teachers should be armed and insanity itself to try to explain the killer’s motives.

(Excerpt) Read more at mirror.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: armedcitizen; armteachers; banglist; defense; guncontrol; gunfreezone; sandyhookgundefense; secondamendment; teachers; uk
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It is insane to think that you can protect children with nice thoughts. It takes people with guns to do that. The police are always too late to these shootings. You cannot remove guns from the universe. They are 15th century technology and have been made in homes since the beginning. Only totalitarian states can make penalties sufficently strong to decrease the number of guns available to make a difference, because you have to remove 99 percent of the guns to take them away from the small number of people who have strong motivations to do harm. Then the results of the totalitarian rule are far worse than the violence you are trying to prevent.

The world is ruled by force. Better to have balancing forces, than to create disarmed victim zones.

1 posted on 12/16/2012 7:32:17 AM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain

If you weren’t born and raised here you will without a doubt have no concept of our inherent rights which are supposed to be protected from the government. Sadly too many people are under the impression these days that the government grants these rights. Not so. Typical brit.

Share the lead.


2 posted on 12/16/2012 7:38:17 AM PST by rktman
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To: marktwain

The English method of dealing with bad people with guns:

Chuck them and run to a little boat on the beach to take you away.


3 posted on 12/16/2012 7:42:07 AM PST by VanDeKoik
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To: VanDeKoik

No mass school schootings in Israel since 1974. Their staff pack guns..big guns.


4 posted on 12/16/2012 7:50:44 AM PST by Recovering Ex-hippie (Go Galt!)
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To: marktwain

Okay. Let’s say that we get more “gun control” laws and some guy decides he wants to kill a bunch of kindergartners and shows up with a samurai sword. Who in the school is going to be brave enough to approach the guy and take the sword away from him?


5 posted on 12/16/2012 7:51:56 AM PST by FlingWingFlyer (It's not about the guns. It's about the control.)
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To: marktwain

6 posted on 12/16/2012 8:00:05 AM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: marktwain

I thought we told you folks in England a LONG time ago to stop telling us how to live. What part of “Mind your own business!” do you NOT understand?


7 posted on 12/16/2012 8:01:00 AM PST by MeneMeneTekelUpharsin (Freedom is the freedom to discipline yourself so others don't have to do it for you.)
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To: marktwain

400+ dead in Chicago alone for 2012...mostly black on black violence...No tears shed or outrage.


8 posted on 12/16/2012 8:01:57 AM PST by Dallas59 (President Robert Gibbs 2009-2011)
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To: marktwain

Would Adam Lanza have even thought about killing people at Sandy Hook Elementary School if he knew the principal and teachers were armed?

All schools have to consider what they will do now. How do they protect themselves. A sign on the door that says “no guns allowed” obviously isn’t going to deter an Adam Lanza.


9 posted on 12/16/2012 8:02:23 AM PST by mom.mom
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To: marktwain

Bank Guards are armed
Armored truck guards are armed also.
is money worth more than Children? I dont think so


10 posted on 12/16/2012 8:04:12 AM PST by Yorlik803 (better to die on your feet than live on your knees.)
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To: marktwain

The traitorous Connecticut governor and state legislators who passed laws establishing school as “gun-free zones” are co-conspirators with the Sandy Hook murderer.

May these unrepentant 2nd Amendment traitors, especially the leftstream media anti-gun advocates and other political leaders who rip away the right of school administrators and teachers to defend themselves and their students, burn in hell twice as long as the piece of excrement that committed such murders.


11 posted on 12/16/2012 8:04:28 AM PST by Carl Vehse
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To: marktwain

12 posted on 12/16/2012 8:04:29 AM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Dallas59

I might add....No candle light services...no “professional” mourners...no syrupy songs....no Hollywood stars breaking down on camera...little sickening 24/7 media coverage for 24 weeks of every movement of the victims families... no call to ban RAP music...


13 posted on 12/16/2012 8:04:52 AM PST by Dallas59 (President Robert Gibbs 2009-2011)
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To: mom.mom

The libs should demand that specially trained attack unicorns be posted by every school entrance.

[you never see anybody start a killing spree at a gun show.~lots~ of diverse people go to them and the odds are that ~some~ of them are possibly not very sane..but they never open fire..now why is that?]


14 posted on 12/16/2012 8:19:02 AM PST by Salamander (If animals could speak, mankind would weep.)
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To: marktwain
British child among victims
15 posted on 12/16/2012 8:32:54 AM PST by Berlin_Freeper
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To: marktwain
The way I see it, the media is actually one of the biggest parts of the problem. These deranged lunatics are at heart pathetic attention seekers seeking herostratic fame to convince themselves that their existence meant something, aided by the media, which positively orgasms over every pornographic detail over both the event itself and the life of its perpetrator. They would do better to impose a damnatio memoriae on the person and refuse to mention his name or anything about his life, lest a future nutjob look to him for inspiration for his own atrocity. They would never do this of course, stories like this shift a lot of copy with a prurient public that loves to pour over stories like this. What the media do is not just in poor taste, it is actively dangerous...
16 posted on 12/16/2012 8:33:12 AM PST by sinsofsolarempirefan
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To: VanDeKoik
The English method of dealing with bad people with guns:

Chuck them and run to a little boat on the beach to take you away.

I didn't know until recently that the Channel Islands didn't adopt the gun control measures that have plagued most of the U.K.

Perhaps people there are more mindful of these issues because those islands were actually occupied by the Nazis.

17 posted on 12/16/2012 8:44:15 AM PST by Charles Martel (Endeavor to persevere...)
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To: Charles Martel

My mother was born in Jersey and was there during the occupation. I think she would not give away a weapon too easily now. Her family all made it through the war unscathed, just! Unlike a couple of families she knew from school which in hindsight she thinks must have had Jewish blood. The Channel Islands have a long history of invasion and I think would know the value of a good weapon.

Mel


18 posted on 12/16/2012 9:02:01 AM PST by melsec (Once a Jolly Swagman camped by a Billabong....)
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To: marktwain
Only totalitarian states can make penalties sufficently strong to decrease the number of guns available to make a difference,

This is factually incorrect.

Almost every country in Europe and most other industrialized (and non-totalitarian) countries around the world have much lower gun ownership and (partially consequently) lower murder rates than the USA, despite in many cases having a considerably higher general violent crime rate. Thus, demonstrably having "made a difference." Does not prevent "gun violence," but does significantly reduce it.

It is true that in UK only criminals have guns, but even most of them do not have guns, thus violent attacks are less likely to end in death.

I strongly support the 2nd Amendment, but I think it is dishonest to try to claim that there aren't highly unpleasant side effects to the 200M guns floating around America.

On I believe the same day as the Newtown shooting, a nut in China similarly attacked schoolchildren, except he didn't have a gun. So he used a knife.

23 people were injured, but there were no deaths. So far, anyway.

The problem here is that guns indeed do not kill people, but they make it so much easier and more efficient. Does anyone seriously contend Lanza would have been able to kill so many children armed with a knife? Or that the nut in China would not have been more deadly armed with a gun?

One of the costs of an armed populace, unfortunately, is that occasionally one of those armed citizens will go off the rails and do something like this.

This cost is vastly outweighed by the benefits of an armed people, but I think it is dishonest to claim the costs don't exist.

19 posted on 12/16/2012 9:12:18 AM PST by Sherman Logan (Brought to you by one of the pale penis people.)
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To: sinsofsolarempirefan

You are quite correct of course.

However, the media should not be blamed for giving the public what it wants.

When somebody does something like this, people not unreasonably want to know why, so the killer is made a celebrity while everyone who ever knew him is interviewed for possible insight.

If media outlet A chooses not to cover the story, they will lose viewers (and money) to media outlet B. So no outlet is going to do that.


20 posted on 12/16/2012 9:21:52 AM PST by Sherman Logan (Brought to you by one of the pale penis people.)
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To: marktwain

“It’s insane. Insane to think teachers should be armed and insanity itself to try to explain the killer’s motives.”

So according to this ding-dong, we shouldn’t look for a motive ? Isn’t finding the motive the only way to prevent future incidents ?

Oh yeah. I forgot. People just want to ban guns and allow our current leadership to enslave us all, permanently.


21 posted on 12/16/2012 9:22:57 AM PST by Celerity
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To: Charles Martel

They also dont consider themselves to be English.


22 posted on 12/16/2012 9:27:11 AM PST by VanDeKoik
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To: sinsofsolarempirefan

I’ve been thinking about your post and believe you may have hit on something here.

Our society in past decades has been glorifying fame more and more. People are now famous and admired for being famous, most notably perhaps the Kardashian family.

Many movies now end not with riding off into the sunset, but with the hero(es) being applauded by a crowd.

People are willing to do the most insane and degrading things to become famous and get on TV.

In a society that values celebrity over almost everything else, is it particularly surprising that some will take this particular route to instant fame?


23 posted on 12/16/2012 9:29:11 AM PST by Sherman Logan (Brought to you by one of the pale penis people.)
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To: Sherman Logan; All
You are misreading the facts.

You need to look at the total homicide rates from before and after gun control was put in place. It does not matter to the person murdered if their murderer uses a gun or a petrol bomb. If you look at comparable populations in countries where guns are common, the murder rates are about the same. Murder is a cultural phenomena, which has little to do with the weapons used.

As an example, people of Japanese descent (when we kept such figures) in the United States, where guns are plentiful and easily available, had murder rates slightly lower than Japanese in Japan.

24 posted on 12/16/2012 9:33:57 AM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain
It is insane to think that you can protect children with nice thoughts. It takes people with guns to do that. The police are always too late to these shootings.

My SIL is an elementary school teacher. Yesterday her fellow teachers were wanting my brother to help pick out a gun and teach them to use the new piece to protect the kids.

These are all Obama voters. Has anyone else heard similar stories?

25 posted on 12/16/2012 9:34:22 AM PST by SpeakerToAnimals (I hope to earn a name in battle)
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To: marktwain

You are here separating out homicide as unrelated to any other type of crime, whereas it seems to me to be on a continuum with other types of violent crime, since it seems unlikely to me that violent criminals balk at murder when they are perfectly willing to commit other violent crimes.

IOW, those societies which have more violence in general will also have higher homicide rates, all other things being equal. Yet most European countries have a violent crime rate that is a multiple of that in the USA, but a much lower murder rate. The most logical (partial) explanation of this odd fact, to me, is that violent crimes in these countries are committed using less-efficient weapons, thus fewer result in deaths. As somebody has pointed out, it’s really difficult to do a drive-by with a knife.

As far as comparing homicide rates before and after gun control is put in place, I don’t know of any country with a high homicide rate and widely available guns that later put in place effective strict gun control. So I don’t know of any case where this experiment was done. If you know of one, I’d love to see it.


26 posted on 12/16/2012 9:47:06 AM PST by Sherman Logan (Brought to you by one of the pale penis people.)
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To: melsec

Have you seen the brief “Island at War” British TV series about the WWII experiences there?


27 posted on 12/16/2012 10:06:25 AM PST by Charles Martel (Endeavor to persevere...)
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To: marktwain
As a Newtown resident, parent, and law-abiding gun owner I and other like-minded parents here in Newtown (perhaps we're the minority) want to see designated teachers/staff armed and trained to be the first responders they should be. The era of feel-good "gun free" zones should be over.
28 posted on 12/16/2012 10:08:33 AM PST by DTogo (High time to bring back The Sons of Liberty !!)
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To: marktwain
ISRAEL TODAY..............WAKE UP AMERIKA !! Image and video hosting by TinyPic
29 posted on 12/16/2012 10:20:32 AM PST by MtnMan101
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To: Charles Martel

I don’t think I have but as I watch anything to do with the war I am bound to watch it sooner or later. Did it have much about the Channel Islands. My mother returned a ffew years ago for the 60th anniversary of Liberation Day for the Islands - as you would be aware Churchill knew he would have destroyed the Islans to get the Nazi’s out rather he went around them. My Grandpa used to laugh at how much more tolerant the German’s were of misbehaviour after the Allies had taken France. Grandpa was hauled into the head German’s office twice - once for smuggling - unproven and the next time because my mother (as a child) had repelled the friendliness of a German soldier when you said to him “I’m not allowed to talk to you, you are my enemy” - that would have got him shot earlier in the war but this was near the end - the head German was almost grovelling to him so that if asked he would give a good report to the English when the war was over.

Man I didn’t intend to write all that when I started - sorry for the rant!

Mel


30 posted on 12/16/2012 10:21:02 AM PST by melsec (Once a Jolly Swagman camped by a Billabong....)
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To: Sherman Logan

I would certainly agree that guns are a force-multiplyer that allows crazy people like this man to kill a lot more than he could have done with his bare hands, and I do think people need to be honest about this and accept it as the price that has to be paid for having a Second Amendment.

But whilst headline-grabbing ‘spectaculars’ like this incident are the inevitable consequence of a modern America with little gun control, I would be interested to see the statistics showing how many lives are saved by gun owners using them to defend themselves, even if they only had to brandish them. These incidents are less well publicized and lets face it, not as interesting to the media consumer, and so will not loom as large in the public consciousness in the debate for gun control...


31 posted on 12/16/2012 10:38:22 AM PST by sinsofsolarempirefan
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To: Sherman Logan

I would question your assertion that other western nations have much lower gun ownership than the US per capita. Canada, Japan, Switzerland to name a few.

Also you print the myth that the British dont have guns. True, most British dont own guns, and contrary to NRA type myth, never have. But we in the UK can legally own a rifle or shotgun, most handguns are banned except in NI where they are legal. And many thousands do own weapons. I myself own a rifle and shotgun.


32 posted on 12/16/2012 11:23:05 AM PST by the scotsman (i)
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To: marktwain

SCREAMING mums at schools, dads cradling children... it’s all too familiar to those of us who live in the United States.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
You don’t have to live here Anton, you can get the Fug out anytime you like.
Don’t let the door hit you in the butt when you leave a-hole.


33 posted on 12/16/2012 11:44:44 AM PST by Venturer
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To: marktwain

In Britian, if you are the victim of a violent criminal, you just have to die because if you defend yourself and hurt the predator, you could end up in prison. If your child is being raped by a sex ring of Muslims, you just have to report it to your local police who will accuse you of being a racist and do nothing to protect your child.

The British limo-left media have no business telling Americans what to do. Their sense of justice has gone brutally p.c. insane. Maybe they have some more elderly people to starve to death “in hospital.”


34 posted on 12/16/2012 12:00:57 PM PST by SaraJohnson
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To: Travis McGee

That is a great commentary picture, Travis. So true.


35 posted on 12/16/2012 12:02:15 PM PST by SaraJohnson
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To: marktwain
BTTT

Why the Gun is Civilization

A Nation of Cowards


Pacifism: The Ultimate Immorality by Raymond Kraft

Last week, Jack and Jill Pacifisto were walking home through the park after dinner with friends, during which they had spent a few hours discussing the immorality of violence and war and their commitments to send more money to progressive activists over the next year. Suddenly, Tony Thug stepped out of the shadows and pointed a pistol at Jack and said, “Give me your wallet,” and, pointing the gun at Jill, “Your purse.”

“What?” asked Jack, incredulous, “Hey, we don’t want any trouble. We’re pacifists. We aren’t going to hurt you.”

“Not my problem,” said Tony, “Gimme your money.”

So Jack and Jill did, and then Tony said, “And now gimme your watches, rings, jewelry, everything worth anything.”

“Hey,” said Jill, “This is my wedding ring!”

And Tony said, “Not my problem.”

Jack and Jill handed over their wallet, and purse, and all their jewelry and Rolex watches, and then Tony shot them both twice in the chest and picked up the loot and stepped back into the shadows.

As Jill lay dying she whispered, “Jack? Why didn’t you fight back? Why didn’t you have a gun?” Those were her last words.

“I couldn’t,” whispered Jack. “I’m a pacifist.” Those were his last words.

A few days later, Bill Thaxton and his wife were walking home through the park after dinner, when Tony Thug stepped out of the shadows.

“Give me your wallet, your purse,” said Tony, pointing his gun first at Bill, and then at his wife. He did not know that Bill was an old lawman, and had been a Marine sniper when he was young, and was active in the Single Action Shooters Society and had a concealed-carry-permit. Tony assumed that the old man was just an old man with some money and a few credit cards in his wallet walking home from dinner.

“Sorry, friend, I don’t like guns, and I don’t want any trouble,” said Bill.

“Not my problem,” said Tony, “Gimme your wallet, your purse,” he said, waving the gun at Bill’s wife, “Rings, watches, everything.”

“And what if I don’t?” asked Bill.

“I’ll shoot you both. Her first,” said Tony, pointing his gun at Bill’s wife again.

“Well,” said Bill, “Okay, honey, do what he says.”

She tossed down her purse. Bill reached slowly for his left lapel with his right hand and then, like lightning, did a cross-draw with his left and came out blazing with his trusty little 9, nailing Tony three times.

As he lay on the sidewalk dying, Tony Thug was heard to mutter, “Damn, I shoulda stuck with the pacifists . . .”

An acquaintance wrote me last week to tell me proudly how he had been a pacifist since the ‘60s. His letter set me thinking about pacifism, which is the ultimate and vilest form of immorality.

If you are Hitler, or Saddam, or Osama, or Ahmadinejad, your desire to kill those you dislike is at least honest and open. You wear you hate on your sleeve and we know who and what you are. But the Pacifist wears his refusal to resist evil as if it were a badge of honor, and claims it as a sign of his or her absolute moral superiority. The Hitlers and Osamas are at least honest about who they are, the Pacifist is not. Not even to himself.

The German Pastor Martin Niemoller wrote a poem circa 1946 about the quiescence of German intellectuals in the face of the Nazi rise to power that has become famous. Translated, it reads:

When they locked up the social democrats,

I remained silent,

I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists

I did not speak out,

I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews

I did not speak out,

I was not a Jew.

When they came for me

there was no one left to speak out.

The Pacifist says something like this, but, unlike Niemoller, without apology. He says:

When you come for my allies

I will not fight you,

for I am a Pacifist.

When you come for my countrymen

I will not fight you,

for I am a Pacifist.

When you come for my neighbor,

I will not fight you,

for I am a Pacifist.

When you come for my mother,

my father, my brother,

my sister, I will not fight you,

for I am a Pacifist.

When you come for my wife,

my husband, my son,

my daughter, I will not fight you,

for I am a Pacifist.

When you come for me,

I will not fight you,

for I am a Pacifist.

The Pacifist claims that he (or she) is too good to fight against evil, and this is the catastrophic intellectual and moral failure of Pacifism. In the guise of being too good to oppose evil, the Pacifist invokes the ultimate immorality by aiding and abetting and encouraging evil, on the pretext of being too pure, too wise, too sophisticated to fight evil, thereby turning the pretense of goodness and purity into an invocation and license for evil to act without opposition.

The moral stance of the Pacifist is, unwittingly perhaps, homicidal, genocidal, fratricidal, suicidal. The Pacifist says, in effect: “There is nothing good worth fighting for. And there is nothing so evil worth fighting against.”

The Pacifist is willing to give evil free reign, because he or she thinks or feels that fighting against evil is even worse than evil itself . . . an intellectual and moral equivocation of monumentally staggering proportions. In order to be a Pacifist, one must hold that Nazism or Islamism or Communism or any other puritanical totalitarian ideology that seeks to slaughter or oppress all the Jews or all of any other race or tribe is no worse, is not morally inferior, to the existence of Jews and Judaism, or whatever other race or tribe is the whipping boy of the day.

To be a Pacifist, one must hold that acquiescence to a Jihad that seeks to destroy Western Civilization is no worse than Western Civilization, even though the Jihad seeks to extinguish intellectual freedom, religious freedom, political freedom, and ultimately even the freedom to be a Pacifist.

As the English philosopher Edmund Burke said, “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” The Pacifist replies, “I am so good that I will do nothing, I will hurt no one, even if that means that good will be destroyed and evil will win. I am so peaceful that I will not discriminate between the goodness of good and the badness of evil, certainly not with enough conviction to take up arms, literally or figuratively, against the triumph of evil over good, of totalitarianism over freedom, of barbarianism over civilization.”

And so the Pacifist, perhaps unthinkingly, unwittingly, mistakenly, is deeply mired in his intellectual confusion, but surely and unequivocally, the epitome of evil itself, For the Pacifist devoutly believes that by refusing to fight against evil he is affirming that he is good, too good and pure to oppose evil, too good and pure to fight evil, to good and pure to kill evil. But in the end, he is the enabler without whom the triumph of evil would not be possible.




36 posted on 12/16/2012 12:11:24 PM PST by EdReform (Oath Keepers - Guardians of the Republic - Honor your oath - Join us: www.oathkeepers.org)
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To: mom.mom

If I were a teacher, no way would I be in charge of a bunch of children, disarmed. While in liberalism’s racist, pervert, hate and envy animal culture, that is insane.

The DOJ is arming drug cartels, because liberals can never get enough innocent blood to feed their zeal for ultimate dehumanization of mankind. The systematic operation of remaking American women into porn objects and the massive sexual abuse of innocent Americans at the airports gives the little Mao in every liberal a thrill.

The left has murdered millions upon millions for their cause of total control, oppression, poverty and enslavement. I’ll keep my ability to protect my family while residing in the leftist zoo of “change.” Obama’s change means ultimately liberals have a bigger authoritarian killing field.


37 posted on 12/16/2012 12:13:38 PM PST by SaraJohnson
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To: mom.mom
Would Adam Lanza have even thought about killing people at Sandy Hook Elementary School if he knew the principal and teachers were armed?

Supposedly such killers don't expect to make it out alive. They want to be well enough armed and protected (bullet resistant vest) to keep going as long as possible. There's a good analysis of these type shootings here if you're interested (http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/parents-guide).

It's titled A Parent’s Guide to School Shootings but it covers a general range of relevant ideas.
38 posted on 12/16/2012 12:33:08 PM PST by caveat emptor (Scripto ergo sum)
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To: marktwain

Amen.
As far as the comments from the lobotomized and castrated ‘people of the commonwealth’, notably the Aussie’s and the Brit’s; If it weren’t for our traditions and rights, especially the 2nd Amendment, you would have been exterminated by the Japanese and Germans.
Shut up and think a little.
Or we may not be motivated to save your collective ass when the next wave of ‘social reformers’ come to visit, i.e. the Indonesians, your ‘guest workers’, good ‘ol Vlad the impaler - Putin, et al.


39 posted on 12/16/2012 1:44:18 PM PST by jim999
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To: melsec
Here's the wiki on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_at_War

It's a bit fictionalized, but there's quite a bit that your grandfather would recognize.

I think I saw it on Netflix, but it's available elsewhere.

40 posted on 12/16/2012 1:46:05 PM PST by Charles Martel (Endeavor to persevere...)
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To: EdReform

Good post


41 posted on 12/16/2012 2:56:20 PM PST by KC Burke (Plain Conservative opinions and common sense correction for thirteen years. RSC)
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To: KC Burke

Thanks!


42 posted on 12/16/2012 2:58:06 PM PST by EdReform (Oath Keepers - Guardians of the Republic - Honor your oath - Join us: www.oathkeepers.org)
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To: Sherman Logan
As far as comparing homicide rates before and after gun control is put in place, I don’t know of any country with a high homicide rate and widely available guns that later put in place effective strict gun control. So I don’t know of any case where this experiment was done. If you know of one, I’d love to see it.

We have many instances of homicide rates from low to high, where gun control has been implemented. The homicide rates generally trend up after gun control is institutited, though cause and effect are hard to differenciate. Perhaps Finland or Sweden could be used, but both had low homicide rates to begin with.

You may be on to something, though, when you note that there are no countries with high homicide rates and high legal firearms ownership. The highest homicide rates are uniformly in countries with very strict firearms laws.

But, as I said, it is culture that determines homicide rates, not legal firearms ownership.

43 posted on 12/16/2012 3:02:58 PM PST by marktwain
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To: jim999; All

Let us not be so hard on the Aussies and Brits. They are fellow members of th Anglosphere, which I would argue are some of the most civilized places on the planet.

It is true that they have been led down the garden path of disarmament by bad philosophy and a fearful leadership, but most of our traditions and the Second Amendment can be traced directly to the British and the rights of Englishmen.


44 posted on 12/16/2012 3:07:34 PM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain

Prediction: we cant agree what to do about the problem, so we will end up doing nothing.


45 posted on 12/16/2012 3:08:37 PM PST by The_Media_never_lie (Actually, they lie when it suits them! The crooked MS media must be defeated any way it can be done!)
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To: SaraJohnson

‘In Britian, if you are the victim of a violent criminal, you just have to die because if you defend yourself and hurt the predator, you could end up in prison.’

No, you dont. We’ve been through this on FR a million times.


46 posted on 12/16/2012 3:11:01 PM PST by the scotsman (i)
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To: sinsofsolarempirefan
I would certainly agree that guns are a force-multiplyer that allows crazy people like this man to kill a lot more than he could have done with his bare hands, and I do think people need to be honest about this and accept it as the price that has to be paid for having a Second Amendment.

Exactly.

47 posted on 12/16/2012 3:23:36 PM PST by Sherman Logan (Brought to you by one of the pale penis people.)
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To: EdReform

Most “pacifists” aren’t really. They just oppose whatever war is in prospect and set themselves up as the morally superior pacifist. Einstein was a pacifist till the Jews started being wiped out, when he suddenly discovered a need to fight back.Only when his own people were affected was fighting OK.

A true pacifist will refuse to use violence under ANY circumstances. If there is some extreme circumstance under which violence is, they believe, justified, they’re not pacifists, just people with a higher “violence threshold.”

I have a thought experiment to determine if a person is “really” a pacifist.

You are tied to a chair in room A, facing a one-way window into room B. All you can move is your right hand, which can just reach a red button.

A man enters room B with a little girl and prepares to rape and torture her to death. The only way to stop this is for you to push the red button, whereupon he will immediately and painlessly be killed, saving the little girl.

Do you push the button, or do you sit and watch her terror and agony for hours? If you push the button, you’re not really a pacifist, you are just posing as one. If you do not push the button, IMO you’re a despicable person who puts your own moral purity above the safety of a little girl.


48 posted on 12/16/2012 3:35:10 PM PST by Sherman Logan (Brought to you by one of the pale penis people.)
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To: Sherman Logan; sinsofsolarempirefan
I would certainly agree that guns are a force-multiplyer that allows crazy people like this man to kill a lot more than he could have done with his bare hands, and I do think people need to be honest about this and accept it as the price that has to be paid for having a Second Amendment.

In that extremely small subset of circumstances, so very carefully defined, this may be true, but it does not appear that overall there is a significant effect. We cannot measure how many crimes were deterred or stopped because of the presence of guns, or how the overall increase in self reliance and responsibility created in an atmosphere where guns are routinely present can result in less crime.

It does appear though, that over all crime rates are not affected much by the presence or absence of legal weaponry. Mind set created by culture is much more the determining factor.

49 posted on 12/16/2012 3:46:14 PM PST by marktwain
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To: EdReform

Generally an excellent essay.

However, I think it’s a little hyperbolic to call pacifism “the ultimate evil.”

It’s a refusal to resist evil. I think the evil itself is by definition worse.

You might be interested in the history of the Sikhs. For their first century or so, they were pacifists and non-resisters. Ghandi would have approved.

In the early 1600s they got tired of Muslim persecution and reinterpreted the principle of ahimsa, or non-violence, to mean armed protect of the innocent against violence by the oppressor. They took the sword as their symbol.

That’s a form of non-violence I can support!


50 posted on 12/16/2012 3:47:24 PM PST by Sherman Logan (Brought to you by one of the pale penis people.)
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