Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Wake Up Republicans, Rising Federal Revenues Are A Very Bad Thing
Forbes ^ | 12/17/2012 | John Tamny

Posted on 12/17/2012 6:58:52 AM PST by SeekAndFind

Amid the ongoing “fiscal cliff” battle, a popular argument about tax revenues has been reintroduced by Republican-leaning commentators. Eager to disarm facile Democratic proposals meant to erase federal deficits through higher tax rates levied on top earners, conservative pundits have published voluminous commentary and stats showing that income tax increases on the rich don’t produce the revenues desired.

In USA Today, Michael Medved wrote that “The problem with this odd wave of high tax nostalgia is that it ignores one crucial fact about the Eisenhower era: Higher tax rates on a few wealthy taxpayers didn’t produce higher revenues.” Writing in Investor‘s Business Daily, the great Thomas Sowell noted that “under both Republican President Calvin Coolidge and Democratic President John F. Kennedy, high-income people paid more tax revenues into the federal treasury after tax rates went down than they did before.” They did this despite lower tax rates because “Under these conditions, higher tax revenues can be collected by the government, even though tax rates are lower.”

There’s a great deal of evidence showing the above to be true. Whether the 1920s, 60s or 80s, tax revenues increase in concert with top earners accounting for a rising percentage of federal receipts whenever the headline tax rate on the rich declines. So while the argument is hard to argue with, it’s also very dangerous.

Indeed, seemingly forgotten by Republicans is a truth they at least pay lip service to about the horrors of government wrought by rising federal spending. Though we might wish otherwise, when federal revenues spike they rarely go toward paying off debt. Instead, the funds are used by the political class to either expand existing programs, or to introduce new ones. Spending is oxygen to politicians, and growing revenues represent a gusher of fresh air.

(Excerpt) Read more at forbes.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: government; revenue; taxes

1 posted on 12/17/2012 6:58:56 AM PST by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

Wake up Republicans... the democrats could care less how much revenue is flowing in, or how much more revenue will flow in.

It’s NOT about income to them.

It’s about control.


2 posted on 12/17/2012 7:02:33 AM PST by Safrguns
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

The Laffer Curve.


3 posted on 12/17/2012 7:03:40 AM PST by Liberty Wins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

More money to burn.


4 posted on 12/17/2012 7:04:40 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

Look we have a problem now.

Two problems actually.

One of which NOBODY ever talks about, but it is the one most important to America’s future.

We have offshored so many jobs, now we have lost the majority.

Bring back US jobs. And start dealing with imports as a problem, not a solution.

We just lost against Obama for crying out loud. What more evidence does anyone need, we are going the wrong way?


5 posted on 12/17/2012 7:13:18 AM PST by Cringing Negativism Network
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cringing Negativism Network

Outsourcing is a multifaceted issue but I agree that it is hurting us badly.


6 posted on 12/17/2012 7:28:15 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
Government is a cancer on society and money is what feeds it.

Creating new revenue streams for Government is like providing additional blood flow to a brain tumor.

7 posted on 12/17/2012 7:28:35 AM PST by sjmjax (Politicans are like bananas - they start out green, turn yellow, then rot.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
You can't fool the Laffer Curve or Hauser's Law.

Laffer Curve: There is an optimal tax rate that generates the most revenue. Exceed that rate, and revenue declines because people can choose to recognize less income.

Hauser's Law: No matter how high or how low the tax rate, tax revenues average 19.5% of GDP.

8 posted on 12/17/2012 7:30:47 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum ("The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state." - Cornelius Tacitus, Roman Senator)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
Amen, we need to shrink government to be way less costly and we have way over employed people in government.

I think Republicans are all sissies like the Democrats and both parties REFUSE to say the state we are in to the people. We are shattered and I think all Obama is trying to do is borrow out his way out of his four years to leave the greatest depression behind him right after.

This is sick IMO.

9 posted on 12/17/2012 7:42:15 AM PST by A CA Guy ( God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cringing Negativism Network
We just lost against Obama for crying out loud.

I firmly believe the reason we lost is because of who we nominated (or was selected) to run against Obama.
After all, why should anyone bother to vote for "the other guy" when he's just the same as the first? (And yes, Romney is politically VERY similar to Obama.)
This can also be said, generally, of the Republican and Democrat party. (Yes they have different platforms, but when was the last time the Republican party fought for one of its planks?)

What more evidence does anyone need, we are going the wrong way?

I don't need any -- the nomination of Romney (and underhanded measures, such as retroactively changing primary rules) signaled to me that the Republican party is just about talk, not action. This is confirmed by Boehner's surrender of the only chit the Republicans had: refusing to raise the debt ceiling and many other things.

10 posted on 12/17/2012 7:48:32 AM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: OneWingedShark
No, don't agree. Obama has charisma and the media in his pocket and the country has changed.

Jobs, the country needs lots of Jobs, 10-15 millions more. The Outsourcing issue irritates lots of conservatives and Reagan democrats. Millions of voters were lost because of this issue. Almost certainly cost Ohio. The Dems love to create dependency and the fact that millions can't find work pushes them right into government programs. Sadly many on our side only care about large business and don't seem to care about people who want to work but cannot find any. They blame them instead of an economy that can't generate enough jobs.

11 posted on 12/17/2012 8:08:13 AM PST by desertfreedom765
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Safrguns

It is about revenue and funding the welfare state. Without additional revenue, the welfare state will collapse.


12 posted on 12/17/2012 8:23:33 AM PST by kabar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: desertfreedom765
Jobs, the country needs lots of Jobs, 10-15 millions more. The Outsourcing issue irritates lots of conservatives and Reagan democrats. Millions of voters were lost because of this issue. Almost certainly cost Ohio. The Dems love to create dependency and the fact that millions can't find work pushes them right into government programs. Sadly many on our side only care about large business and don't seem to care about people who want to work but cannot find any. They blame them instead of an economy that can't generate enough jobs.

I agree w/ jobs being a need. However the problem is government. Not the president, he doesn't have the power/influence to do so, but the congress with its laws and institution of regulatory agencies.

The economy doesn't happen because of government, it happens in spite of government. Our government, and indeed many citizens, have come to believe that government controls the economy... when the reality is that the economy can kill the government ignoring economic law just as surly as a man ignoring physical law jumping into a train's path thinking he can stop it would be killed.

13 posted on 12/17/2012 8:54:26 AM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: kabar

>>> It is about revenue and funding the welfare state. Without additional revenue, the welfare state will collapse.

If they wanted more revenue for the welfare state, they would not be raising taxes.

THEY KNOW that revenues will plummet AND that our corresponding debt will SKYROCKET as a result of their policies and tax hikes.

THEY KNOW THIS!

That is my point.


14 posted on 12/17/2012 9:15:55 AM PST by Safrguns
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Safrguns
If they wanted more revenue for the welfare state, they would not be raising taxes.

Democrats and liberals the world over do not believe that to be the case. Look what is happening in Greece, Spain, France, etc. They are raising taxes on the rich, including individuals and businesses.

THEY KNOW that revenues will plummet AND that our corresponding debt will SKYROCKET as a result of their policies and tax hikes. THEY KNOW THIS! That is my point.

THEY DON'T KNOW THAT. If they did, they would not continue trying the same solution over and over again and getting the same result. They are ideologues who believe in the redistribution of wealth and a bottom up economic theory. Obama, when confronted by Maria Barteromo that raising capital gains would decrease revenue, responded it is not just about revenue but fairness. He talks about social justice. They believe that Big Government is the solution to all of our ills and that they can "perfect" human nature.

In the meantime, the welfare state is collapsing. Current tax revenue is just enough to cover the costs of the entitlement programs and debt servicing costs, which comprise two-thirds of the federal budget and are on automatic pilot. So-called discretionary funding (including Defense) make up only a third of the federal spending.

Ten thousand people a day are retiring every day and will continue to do so for the next 20 years. By 2030 one in five residents of this country will be 65 or older (twice what it is now) and there will be only two workers for every retiree compared to 3.3 now and 16 in 1950.

Like other great powers and civilizations in decline, there will be a competition for resources. First comes the butter versus guns battle, which butter usually wins because it has more constituents. And then there will be the battle for taxes that will extend not only for the rich but eventually for the middle class. There is no doubt that to keep the welfare state treading water for a little longer, they will come after the middle class with higher tax rates. It is inevitable. Maybe we will see a VAT plus income tax.

Mark Steyn described it best: America not paying its fair share --You cannot simultaneously enjoy American-sized taxes and European-sized government. One or the other has got to go."

"Generally speaking, functioning societies make good-faith efforts to raise what they spend, subject to fluctuations in economic fortune: Government spending in Australia is 33.1 percent of GDP, and tax revenues are 27.1 percent. Likewise, government spending in Norway is 46.4 percent, and revenues are 41 percent – a shortfall but in the ballpark. Government spending in the United States is 42.2 percent, but revenues are 24 percent – the widest spending/taxing gulf in any major economy.

So all the agonizing over our annual trillion-plus deficits overlooks the obvious solution: Given that we're spending like Norwegians, why don't we just pay Norwegian tax rates?"

15 posted on 12/17/2012 10:01:03 AM PST by kabar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: kabar

>>> THEY DON’T KNOW THAT. If they did, they would not continue trying the same solution over and over again and getting the same result.

This is where I disagree. They cannot be that delusional.

Maybe the dumb masses believe that raising taxes on the rich will increase revenues, but those who have been in Washington passing tax laws for decades know better. They are the ones seeing immediate impact of their own policies on revenues on the last 4 years alone, not to mention what happened in the Carter and Clinton years.

The evidence of Cause and effect is too overwhelming.

They are the ones who conveniently use arguments against deficit spending and debt when a republican is in charge, but triple and quadruple down on it when they are in power.

I say they are lying when they try to convince people that raising taxes on the rich will solve the problem. They know better. Bringing down the economy brings them more voters and more power. That is more important to them than how much revenue is available to fund the welfare state.

Besides... the welfare state is no longer dependent upon actual revenues. It is dependent upon the debt ceiling being raised. They WANT us to be Greece. That is the only scenario which gives them the national emergency strong enough to formally trash our constitution in favor of a socialist state.


16 posted on 12/17/2012 10:51:08 PM PST by Safrguns
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Safrguns
This is where I disagree. They cannot be that delusional. Maybe the dumb masses believe that raising taxes on the rich will increase revenues, but those who have been in Washington passing tax laws for decades know better. They are the ones seeing immediate impact of their own policies on revenues on the last 4 years alone, not to mention what happened in the Carter and Clinton years. The evidence of Cause and effect is too overwhelming.

Yes they are that delusional. We are dealing with ideologues. They, like their European brethren want to increase revenue thru higher taxes. As far as the Clinton years are concerned, the Dems believe that his increased taxes on the wealthy in 1992 helped fuel the economic boom and led to balanced budgets. Revenue did increase under Clinton.

Factoid: Federal spending under Obama has been 24 percent to 25 percent of gross domestic product. Even in World War II, revenues never reached that level. Since that war, the highest level was 20.6 percent of GDP in 2000, when the government was flush with tax revenues from the capital gains of dot-com founders. -- Michael Barone

RAHN: Obama’s money misunderstanding--Raising revenue by raising taxes doesn’t work

Besides... the welfare state is no longer dependent upon actual revenues. It is dependent upon the debt ceiling being raised. They WANT us to be Greece. That is the only scenario which gives them the national emergency strong enough to formally trash our constitution in favor of a socialist state.

Pure insanity. No nation can defy fiscal gravity. We can't continue on the future path with a total collapse including civil unrest like what is now happening in Greece. Anyone who sees this as an opportunity has no knowledge of history.

17 posted on 12/18/2012 7:13:04 AM PST by kabar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: kabar

You say they are total idiots.

I say they are communists completing an agenda.

In the end, we will have socialism.

Does it really matter?

I say yes. The counter strategy is completely different to prevent the outcome.

We have been treating them like idiots now for decades... and their cause continues to march on.. like a swarm of ants that cannot be stopped.

You cannot reason with hungry ants. You gotta start stompin.


18 posted on 12/18/2012 7:49:27 AM PST by Safrguns
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Safrguns
You say they are total idiots. I say they are communists completing an agenda. In the end, we will have socialism.

If you read my posts you will see that I call them ideologues who are bent on social justice and fairness. They believe in Big Government and central control. They are statists and collectivists.

We have been treating them like idiots now for decades... and their cause continues to march on.. like a swarm of ants that cannot be stopped. You cannot reason with hungry ants. You gotta start stompin.

We? Do you have a mouse in your pocket? I have never considered them to be idiots. They have been successful because they are giving the public what it wants. We have created a culture of dependency. People will give away their liberty for security. Almost half of the population receives a government check. Government at all levels controls 42% of GDP. We have a welfare state, but the public doesn't want to pay for it. They would rather pass the bill on to their children and grandchildren who will have a lower standard of living.

How do you propose we start stomping?

19 posted on 12/18/2012 8:33:29 AM PST by kabar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: kabar

>>> How do you propose we start stomping?

For starters, we could remove Obama from office for fraudulent entry into public office, which would nullify everything the democrats have passed or done (including 2 lib SCOTUS appointments) for the last 4 years.

Instead of the Republican party being dead, it would be the Democrat party.


20 posted on 12/18/2012 9:30:46 AM PST by Safrguns
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Safrguns
For starters, we could remove Obama from office for fraudulent entry into public office, which would nullify everything the democrats have passed or done (including 2 lib SCOTUS appointments) for the last 4 years.

I don't know who the "we" are, but if that is your solution, you are living in a fantasy world.

21 posted on 12/18/2012 10:03:53 AM PST by kabar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: kabar

>>> I don’t know who the “we” are, but if that is your solution, you are living in a fantasy world.

Havn’t heard any solutions from you...

You are living in a socialist world.

Difference is you don’t even know it.


22 posted on 12/18/2012 10:55:37 AM PST by Safrguns
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson