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.223 cannot even be used to hunt big game in Washington state (too small of a caliber)
http://wdfw.wa.gov/help/questions/111/__print ^

Posted on 12/17/2012 4:54:13 PM PST by Red in Blue PA

Big game, except cougar, must be hunted with a minimum of .24 caliber (6mm) centerfire rifle. Cougar may be hunted with a .22 caliber centerfire rifle. Rimfire rifles are not legal for big game.

We are now hearing 24/7 ad nauseum about how the AR-15 is practically a WMD according to the media.....yet in Washington state it is not even allowed for hunting because the caliber is too small to be considered ethical.

Information like this needs to get out there.

(Excerpt) Read more at wdfw.wa.gov ...


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: banglist; sourcetitlenoturl; vanity
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1 posted on 12/17/2012 4:54:23 PM PST by Red in Blue PA
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To: Red in Blue PA

223 seemed to be adequate to kill some kids. What is your point?


2 posted on 12/17/2012 4:56:12 PM PST by palmer (Obama = Carter + affirmative action)
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To: Red in Blue PA
It good to know its adequate for 6 year olds...geez
3 posted on 12/17/2012 4:59:33 PM PST by montanajoe
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To: Red in Blue PA

Caliber has nothing to do with it. The important things are hi-cap mags, pistol grips, flash suppressors, folding stocks, etc.


4 posted on 12/17/2012 4:59:52 PM PST by umgud (No Rats, No Rino's)
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To: Red in Blue PA

You may hunt a cougar with a .22 but it’s not recommended. They get mighty uppity when you hit them with a .22 ... we hunt coyote’s with a .22mag and that’s the largest animal we’d try it on.


5 posted on 12/17/2012 5:01:11 PM PST by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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To: Red in Blue PA

.223 great for coyotes...


6 posted on 12/17/2012 5:01:35 PM PST by Bushbacker1 (I miss President Bush! (Oathkeeper))
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To: palmer

Didn’t someone years ago wipe out a McDonald’s in San Diego. Killed a bunch of people including kids?


7 posted on 12/17/2012 5:02:54 PM PST by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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To: Red in Blue PA

The purpose of the 2nd Amendment is not about hunting in Washington *state*.


8 posted on 12/17/2012 5:06:05 PM PST by PLMerite (Shut the Beyotch Down! Burn, baby, burn!)
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To: Red in Blue PA

Perfectly legal for deer in Arkansas and I believe Texas. No limit on magazine size.

The .223 falls between the .222 Remington and .222 Rem Mag. The .223 used to be known as the .222 Remington Spl.


9 posted on 12/17/2012 5:07:43 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Reopen the mental institutions! Damn the ACLU!)
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To: palmer

I think the point he is making is the media often describe assault rifles as particularly powerful.

I still remember a Hattiesburg, MS cop interviewed by a TV station saying, “If you hit a deer with an AR-15 there wouldn’t be anything left”.

This was at a time when the so called, assault rifle ban was being debated and later passed.


10 posted on 12/17/2012 5:12:12 PM PST by yarddog (One shot one miss.)
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To: SkyDancer
San Ysidro, CA 1984 The Psycho's name was Huberty. He used an UZI carbine and a Browning Hi-Power pistol, both 9mm. Definitely not legal for big game but 21 people were killed.
11 posted on 12/17/2012 5:14:55 PM PST by atomic conspiracy (Victory in Iraq: Worst defeat for activist media since Goebbels shot himself.)
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To: Red in Blue PA

The .223 cartridge is identical within several thousandths of an inch to the military 5.56mm NATO cartridge which has been the standard military service round since Vietnam. The cartridge may carry a higher powder load, giving the round a muzzle velocity in excess of the military round.

I can assure you from personal observation that this round produces lethal wounds on many parts of the human body, especially at close range and especially with multiple hits.

You are correct that it is not considered legal ammunition for deer and other large game in some states. Other states do permit it. If your point is that this round should be considered in a class with .22 LR, pellets, etc., then you could not be more wrong.


12 posted on 12/17/2012 5:16:19 PM PST by centurion316
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To: yarddog

It’s kind of a useless distinction in this case. Would it have been better or worse to use the Glocks with hollow points? Also leave hunting out of the debate. The correct response to this tragedy is to train and arm all willing teachers and administrators.


13 posted on 12/17/2012 5:16:47 PM PST by palmer (Obama = Carter + affirmative action)
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To: palmer
223 seemed to be adequate to kill some kids. What is your point?

Admittedly, I'm a little late to the party due to a communication problem, but the last I heard, the .223 was never deployed. The damage was done with 9mm handguns.

14 posted on 12/17/2012 5:19:28 PM PST by elkfersupper ( Member of the Original Defiant Class)
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To: elkfersupper

You’re very late. The children were shot with the rifle.


15 posted on 12/17/2012 5:23:49 PM PST by KyCats
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To: PLMerite

Or any other state.


16 posted on 12/17/2012 5:26:18 PM PST by gfbtbb (The answer to your question will not be found here.)
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To: Red in Blue PA

Inane.


17 posted on 12/17/2012 5:27:03 PM PST by 4buttons
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To: Red in Blue PA
Wash State? You mean one of those places that kalifornians turned into a similar sewer like the one they left? I thought so.

In my state the 5.56/223 can be used to hunt all game.

18 posted on 12/17/2012 5:27:45 PM PST by LouAvul
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To: KyCats
The children were shot with the rifle.

That is definite? I'd read that the rifle was found in the vehicle he had driven to the school.

19 posted on 12/17/2012 5:31:11 PM PST by Alaska Wolf (Carry a Gun, It's a Lighter Burden Than Regret)
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To: palmer
The very first reports I heard coming out of this shooting stated that the AR-15 was found in the shooter's car and the shooter had used two Glock pistols to do the killing inside the school.

I wonder if the MSM might now be manipulating the news to advance their Liberal left agenda of restarting the so-called assault weapons ban.

20 posted on 12/17/2012 5:32:16 PM PST by DJ Taylor (Once again our country is at war, and once again the Democrats have sided with our enemy.)
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To: palmer
223 seemed to be adequate to kill some kids. What is your point?

Listening to the media, one would think WMD's were used.

THAT was my point.
21 posted on 12/17/2012 5:32:47 PM PST by Red in Blue PA (Read SCOTUS Castle Rock vs Gonzales before dialing 911!)
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To: KyCats

Have you got a link for that? Last I heard, no one knew for sure yet.


22 posted on 12/17/2012 5:33:59 PM PST by BerryDingle (I know how to deal with communists, I still wear their scars on my back from Hollywood-Ronald Reagan)
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To: Red in Blue PA

A gun is basically a metal pipe that has some modifications.

We should make it illegal to own a metal pipe.


23 posted on 12/17/2012 5:34:57 PM PST by FoxPro
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To: atomic conspiracy

K, thanks for the story.


24 posted on 12/17/2012 5:42:10 PM PST by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Legal for deer in MN and WI, as well.


25 posted on 12/17/2012 5:42:56 PM PST by ButThreeLeftsDo (FR: Now, More Than Ever.)
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To: DJ Taylor; elkfersupper
Shot with a rifle according to the coroner and now cops say a shotgun was left in the car. Originally there were anonymous LEO sources saying

A law enforcement official — who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity because the investigation is far from finished — said Adam Lanza fatally shot his mother in her home, then drove in her car to Sandy Hook Elementary.

He had two semiautomatic pistols and a .223-caliber rifle, law enforcement officials said. He apparently used only the handguns, which were later found in the school. The rifle was found in the vehicle.
from wash post

It seems likely the original anonymous LEO sources had it wrong. Smaller entry/exit wounds would make it clear that it 223 was used.

26 posted on 12/17/2012 5:44:53 PM PST by palmer (Obama = Carter + affirmative action)
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To: yarddog
I still remember a Hattiesburg, MS cop interviewed by a TV station saying, “If you hit a deer with an AR-15 there wouldn’t be anything left”.

Was that cop's name Roscoe P. Coltrane by any chance?


27 posted on 12/17/2012 5:45:01 PM PST by usconservative (When The Ballot Box No Longer Counts, The Ammunition Box Does. (What's In Your Ammo Box?))
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To: palmer

when you shoot someone a dozen times, it doesn’t matter what the round is- especially when they’re babies. That being said, this atrocity could have been perpetrated with a ball peen hammer and a hatchet about as easily. Banning assault rifles will not prevent a single murder.


28 posted on 12/17/2012 5:46:27 PM PST by RC one (FU liberals.)
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To: Red in Blue PA

Just read that you can use one on private land in mississippi.


29 posted on 12/17/2012 5:48:20 PM PST by Sybeck1 (Exodus 20:17)
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To: SkyDancer

Yea a cougar is likely to stalk you back to home, then bat you around for 5 or 10 minutes, then kill you in revenge for making it mad.


30 posted on 12/17/2012 5:50:29 PM PST by Domandred (Fdisk, format, and reinstall the entire .gov system.)
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To: centurion316

.223 is not legal for deer in some states because it can mortally wound without a quick kill. Which is inhumane. And ruins the meat.

However, in war that can be considered the goal. A single mortal wound can tie up multiple support personnel, which is better from a strategic standpoint.

Also, most of the .223 rounds available to civilians are FMJ which don’t do the desired amount of damage because of over penetration. That said, I sure don’t want to get shot with it. Even with cheap target ammo, a good marksman can pump multiple rounds into a single target very quickly, increasing the odds of hitting vital organs.

IMO a lot of discussion about caliber are academic outside of the battlefield. Guns and bullets are nasty stuff, which is why we need to carry them to use on the bad guys. There are more of us than them, so if we are armed they will be the losers.


31 posted on 12/17/2012 5:56:32 PM PST by ChildOfThe60s (If you can remember the 60s.....you weren't really there)
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To: FoxPro

Up here in Alaska, lots of people and especially the Indians hunt with military rifles, SKS, ARs, MINI 14s, M1s, even those heavy old M-14s. Kids and me have killed all kinds of caribou & blk bear with our 6.8 and got a few moose with the 338 fed. My 556s haven’t been outta the vault in several years but I really prefer the short light ARs with 2 point slings on snowmachine & 4 wheeler; especially on narrow trails. 10 round clips would be fine by me. Irks me hearing the media parrot how ARs aren’t for hunting; luv those back up shots when I do miss and if you’ve ever chased wolves on snowmachine; you miss alot on the fly.


32 posted on 12/17/2012 5:57:08 PM PST by Eska
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To: atomic conspiracy

And then there was Luby’s in Texas.23 killed.


33 posted on 12/17/2012 5:58:34 PM PST by Mears
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To: yarddog
I still remember a Hattiesburg, MS cop interviewed by a TV station saying, “If you hit a deer with an AR-15 there wouldn’t be anything left”.

Uh huh


34 posted on 12/17/2012 6:00:35 PM PST by ChildOfThe60s (If you can remember the 60s.....you weren't really there)
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To: Red in Blue PA

The .223 is NOT a HIGH POWERED round. A 400 Nitro Express is a HIGH POWERED round.

The .223 is NOT designed to kill. The 400 Nitro Express is designed to KILL on impact.

The .223 is designed to WOUND.

Why you ask? On the battle field, if you KILL an opponent, you neutralize ONE opponent. But if you WOUND an opponent, you now probably neutralized ONE or TWO others that need to TEND to the guy you wounded.

This is not an opinion, it is an active conversation among those who decided to go to the small caliber, hyper fast rounds. Mikael Kalashnikov included.

This is an ongoing conversation.


35 posted on 12/17/2012 6:06:57 PM PST by ConradofMontferrat (According to mudslimz, my handle is a HATE CRIME. And I HOPE they don't like it.)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

No caliber limitation in Montana.

There an awful lot Al Qaeda that have found it to be formidable.

Gunner


36 posted on 12/17/2012 6:09:05 PM PST by weps4ret (Republicans are suffering from Testicular Atrophy!!!)
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To: palmer
223 seemed to be adequate to kill some kids.

Unfortunately, you are so right.

It isn't the size of the bullet, its where you place it.

I'd rather be talking about the DRUGZ that Psychobabblers had in play, than the "gunz" that seem to fixate everyone.

It isn't the tools that they use, its what's between the ears that needs fixed.

37 posted on 12/17/2012 6:11:59 PM PST by ConradofMontferrat (According to mudslimz, my handle is a HATE CRIME. And I HOPE they don't like it.)
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To: ChildOfThe60s

You are entirely correct. I own a Remington 700 chambered in .223 with a very fine scope mounted. I would never use it for large game for reasons cited. It would do just fine against some human assailant should the need ever arise.


38 posted on 12/17/2012 6:12:07 PM PST by centurion316
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To: umgud

Umm, how in the world do “flash suppressors” and “folding stocks” have anything in the world to do with anything?

A 12 gauge pump, with 000 buckshot maybe would have killed more.

You want carnage? The ancient shotgun can deliver carnage.

People have no clue.


39 posted on 12/17/2012 6:15:13 PM PST by ConradofMontferrat (According to mudslimz, my handle is a HATE CRIME. And I HOPE they don't like it.)
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To: ConradofMontferrat; palmer

***223 seemed to be adequate to kill some kids.***

.22 Rimfire from a Winchester 74 will do the same. So will a baseball bat or an iron pipe.


40 posted on 12/17/2012 6:18:19 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Reopen the mental institutions! Damn the ACLU!)
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To: Red in Blue PA

The correct takeaway is to refute the “nobody needs an AR-15 because you cannot hunt with it” meme with two responses:

1) Tens of thousands of people hunt with AR-15s in .223

2) The Second Amendment isn’t about hunting.


41 posted on 12/17/2012 6:19:27 PM PST by Yo-Yo (Is the /sarc tag really necessary?)
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To: Domandred

But what “caliber” does one need to hunt cougars?;)


42 posted on 12/17/2012 6:20:55 PM PST by RPTMS
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To: palmer

“223 seemed to be adequate to kill some kids. What is your point?”

David Hackworth was an officer in the Vietnam War (author of About Face). He said of the .223, “It would be an adequate weapon if America’s enemies were only about three feet high.” Note, many of the dead were about three feet high.

The point is that the caliber of the gun, or what kind of gun is, as lawyers say, irrelevant, immaterial, and not germane.

Want to consider that if guns are banned, the amount of damage a couple of BBQ tanks of propane could do to a school? If you are not familiar with the following term, I suggest a Google search for “fuel-air demolition device”.

Hint: A military uses such devices to demolish a building. That’s ‘building’, not ‘room in a building’.

As a matter of fact, back in 1929 a school attacker used dynamite and killed twice as many as did the Newtown, Conn. shooter.

Put simply, guns kill retail, explosives kill wholesale.


43 posted on 12/17/2012 6:21:12 PM PST by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is necessary to examine principles."..)
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To: SkyDancer

SkyDancer,

For many years, treed cougar were killed with .22 Long Rifle guns. Cougar skulls are actually rather fragile and the .22 was used to make sure that the cougar’s skull was not shattered such that it could not be boiled, cleaned of tissue, and then set on a desk.

Body shots are another matter.

PS Having a pack of dogs as a backup did make such a light cartridge less risky than it may appear at first reading.


44 posted on 12/17/2012 6:26:08 PM PST by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is necessary to examine principles."..)
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To: palmer

And my response to this is: How do we KNOW this isn’t gov sponsored propaganda?

Think about it, its more to the fedgovs advantage if the kids were killed with a .223 than a handgun.

I don’t trust anything they are saying here.

“Never let a good “crisis” go to waste.”

If this moron used his two pistols and NOT the rifle, How In The World could we ask for a return of the wet dream “assault rifle” ban?

I smell a RATZ here, like a DemoKaRATZ or a BureauKaRATZ.

Fast and Furious anyone?

Paint me Doubting Thomas here.


45 posted on 12/17/2012 6:26:52 PM PST by ConradofMontferrat (According to mudslimz, my handle is a HATE CRIME. And I HOPE they don't like it.)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

In the youtube video “Aporkalypse Now”, the .223 is used for helicopter born hog hunts.

Funny video, too.


46 posted on 12/17/2012 6:27:36 PM PST by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is necessary to examine principles."..)
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To: ChildOfThe60s
Also, most of the .223 rounds available to civilians are FMJ which don’t do the desired amount of damage because of over penetration.

Both the 55 gr FMJ M193 5.56 and the 62gr FMJ M855 5.56 are available to civilians. I use the M193 in my Stag Model 8 and the M855 in my Rock River Arms upper/Colt lower with a 20" barrel. The M193 will tumble after it enters the human body and cause extensive damage. The tradeoff is that it is more easily deflected by brush and twigs than the M855. The M855 has a longer effective range, but it can over penetrate. This was the problem that the Marines faced in Fallujah during Operation Phantom Fury. The Jihadis were hopped up on drugs and shots to the body often would not stop them because of over penetration. Head shots were effective, though.

47 posted on 12/17/2012 6:31:00 PM PST by SVTCobra03 (You can never have enough friends, horsepower or ammunition.)
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To: GladesGuru

When we’re up in the hill country (dense forest here) we carry a 30-30 and/or a .45 carbine using hydra-shocks.


48 posted on 12/17/2012 6:31:18 PM PST by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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To: ConradofMontferrat
Umm, how in the world do “flash suppressors” and “folding stocks” have anything in the world to do with anything?

These features (+ pistol grips, hi-cap mags, etc.) turn ordinary semi-automatic rifles into an assault weapon. Did I really need a /sarc tag?

49 posted on 12/17/2012 6:33:29 PM PST by umgud (No Rats, No Rino's)
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To: umgud

LOL,

No, I should have guessed.

Its late and I’m old. Passed my bedtime.

Let me slide and I’ll return the favor some night.

Have a happy.


50 posted on 12/17/2012 6:36:05 PM PST by ConradofMontferrat (According to mudslimz, my handle is a HATE CRIME. And I HOPE they don't like it.)
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