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Guns, Mental Illness and Newtown
Wall Street Journal ^ | December 17, 2012 | DAVID KOPEL

Posted on 12/18/2012 11:27:06 AM PST by absalom01

Has the rate of random mass shootings in the United States increased? Over the past 30 years, the answer is definitely yes. It is also true that the total U.S. homicide rate has fallen by over half since 1980, and the gun homicide rate has fallen along with it. Today, Americans are safer from violent crime, including gun homicide, than they have been at any time since the mid-1960s.

...

Real gun-free zones are a wonderful idea, but they are only real if they are created by metal detectors backed up by armed guards. Pretend gun-free zones, where law-abiding adults (who pass a fingerprint-based background check and a safety training class) are still disarmed, are magnets for evildoers who know they will be able to murder at will with little threat of being fired upon.

People who are serious about preventing the next Newtown should embrace much greater funding for mental health, strong laws for civil commitment of the violently mentally ill—and stop kidding themselves that pretend gun-free zones will stop killers.

(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Front Page News
KEYWORDS: 2012; banglist; gunfreezone; kopel; lanza; newtown; sandyhook

1 posted on 12/18/2012 11:27:14 AM PST by absalom01
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To: absalom01

Thanks for posting.


2 posted on 12/18/2012 11:32:40 AM PST by BipolarBob (I survived the Lindsay Lohan Bar, Grill and Fight Club.)
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To: absalom01
I haven't heard a single person talk about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM here.. No fathers in the homes that dispense a form of discipline that only a MAN can bring. No father figures or MEN in the schools. No father figures or MEN in daycare. We have a near 100% female-dominated oversight of boys with few men in the picture. Discipline must be firm and it must start with boys at an EARLY age, or else it's counterproductive. I have a feeling that when Adam DID have a father, he was a father in name only and not engaged or proactive with discipline. I'm not saying females can't enforce rules or be disciplinary; They CAN. However, with boys you need a MAN whom is feared, yet revered and respected and it MUST start at a young age.

Boys today are fatherless and fear NOTHING. Fatherlessness and FEARLESSNESS is the problem.

3 posted on 12/18/2012 11:37:47 AM PST by Obama_Is_Sabotaging_America (IMPEACH OBAMA)
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To: absalom01

Ban high-capacity gun free zones.


4 posted on 12/18/2012 11:41:06 AM PST by TurboZamboni (Looting the future to bribe the present)
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To: BipolarBob
This is a HORRIBLE idea.

Letting the same organizations that brought us abortion and the normalization of homosexuality decide who is "sane" enough to possess a firearm is national suicide.

Anyone who thinks ANYTHING but the disarming of Christians/Patriots/Veterans will come of this this SEVERELY NAIVE.

I can't believe so many conservatives are falling for such a blatant attempt to divide and conquer.

Our boys didn't go soft and quit when they saw their buddies being mowed down on Normandy Beach, as horrible as it was. We too must not abandon our liberty teeth due to our recent similar horror.

We need to MAN UP, WISE UP and STAND UP. I won't disarm no matter what some commie shrink calls me !

5 posted on 12/18/2012 11:44:41 AM PST by SENTINEL (I lie, I cheat, I steal, I communize, I sacrifice unborn babies, I'm Harry Reid and I'm a mormon)
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To: absalom01
People who are serious about preventing the next Newtown should embrace much greater funding for mental health, strong laws for civil commitment of the violently mentally ill—and stop kidding themselves that pretend gun-free zones will stop killers.

(Calmly raises hand and says)Where's the funding going to come from? We don't have any money, and have overspent to the tune of $16 trillion already....

6 posted on 12/18/2012 11:47:40 AM PST by Alas Babylon!
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To: absalom01
Why Do They Want Our Guns?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j73SsNFgBO4

7 posted on 12/18/2012 11:50:08 AM PST by Dick Bachert (An ARMED society is a POLITE society!)
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To: absalom01

Can’t wait for all this talk to be over. To be repeated exactly the same after the next massacre.


8 posted on 12/18/2012 11:52:22 AM PST by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: Obama_Is_Sabotaging_America

It’s mental health and then some…
It’s feminized boys
It’s boys raised by women with no regular man in their lives
It’s medicating boys who are fidgety in class
It’s not letting boys be boys
It’s school that has no daily phy. ed.
It’s a culture of Everybody gets a Trophy
It’s “gender neutral” bathrooms
It’s “gender neutral” easy bake ovens
It’s self-esteem bestowed and not earned.

It’s main-streaming mentally ill people into everyday life and denying any of them should be institutionalized

It’s a mother who doesn’t lock her guns up so they can’t be accessed

It’s a mother who would rather be out drinking than caring for her son

It’s a mother who ignores the deep-seated problem illustrated by a boy who deliberately burns himself with a lighter.

It’s a mental health care system that is the most under-funded element of almost every health insurance plan. Medicare has had its mental health care elements gutted (effective 1/1/13).

It’s a mental health care system that is “outcome based.” The outcome is every person must be freed to walk the street. It’s the same system that does not hold a provider (doctor, therapist, counselor) responsible if/when he/she releases the wrong person.

It’s a mental health care system that exhausts parents of mentally ill children because even the most severely mentally ill child is almost always set home from the hospital when the latest crisis passes. Parents are made to believe it is their burden to carry no matter how impossible for them.

Or, we can just ban guns (especially the ones that look scary that we’ve politically decided to call assault weapons) so we can feel good about it.

And, then we all get a trophy for “caring.”


9 posted on 12/18/2012 11:53:44 AM PST by tsowellfan
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To: absalom01
I think school districts could hire and retired and off-duty cops, part time, to provide security at schools. These personnel could carry sidearms and have ready access to an on-site gun safe containing riot guns, semi-auto rifles, flak vests, etc. This might be augmented by carefully screened volunteers. The presence of these guards might also reduce school drug dealing, bullying, and gang activity.
10 posted on 12/18/2012 12:01:01 PM PST by Brad from Tennessee (A politician can't give you anything he hasn't first stolen from you.)
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To: Obama_Is_Sabotaging_America

So glad to have grown up in the 50’s/60’s. Raised our kids in the 80’s/90’s. Now to help them navigate thru all the mess the libs have left and have my grandkids come out normal. What a challenge that it.


11 posted on 12/18/2012 12:10:42 PM PST by SLB (23rd Artillery Group, Republic of South Vietnam, Aug 1970 - Aug 1971.)
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To: SENTINEL

During the time frame you reference, this country also had a system of mental hospitals where severely psychotic individuals could be cared for, and if necessary, confined. It wasn’t perfect, but it did work.

In the 1960’s, the ACLU brought a series of suits, and promoted a legislative agenda to “deinstitutionalize” the mentally ill, and place them in “community based” facilities.

Well, needless to say, that didn’t happen. The people who would have been in a mental hospital in 1944 were simply dumped out: in some cases families could provide care, but in many they formed the masses of the “homeless” that we heard about in the 1980’s.

Now, we’re told, by the very same liberals who advocated deinstitutionalization that we have to ban “assault weapons” because...wait for it....a psychotic might get ahold of one.


12 posted on 12/18/2012 12:34:28 PM PST by absalom01 (You should do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, and you should never wish to do less.)
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To: SENTINEL

During the time frame you reference, this country also had a system of mental hospitals where severely psychotic individuals could be cared for, and if necessary, confined. It wasn’t perfect, but it did work.

In the 1960’s, the ACLU brought a series of suits, and promoted a legislative agenda to “deinstitutionalize” the mentally ill, and place them in “community based” facilities.

Well, needless to say, that didn’t happen. The people who would have been in a mental hospital in 1944 were simply dumped out: in some cases families could provide care, but in many they formed the masses of the “homeless” that we heard about in the 1980’s.

Now, we’re told, by the very same liberals who advocated deinstitutionalization that we have to ban “assault weapons” because...wait for it....a psychotic might get ahold of one.


13 posted on 12/18/2012 12:34:38 PM PST by absalom01 (You should do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, and you should never wish to do less.)
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To: tsowellfan

Yes, that is the meme that they are trying to sell.

Let’s not let them get away with it this time, hey?


14 posted on 12/18/2012 12:36:37 PM PST by absalom01 (You should do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, and you should never wish to do less.)
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To: absalom01
Incoherent. And this guy poses as a law expert. The fact is, we already have "strong civil commitment laws for the violently mentally ill." What this guy wants but won't come right out and say, is some kind of preventive detention law for confining someone found to be mentally ill who might become violent at some time in the future.

Thanks but no thanks. In the first place the potential for abuse is profound. For example, I can see this issue being used in every custody hearing from coast to coast, after being obscenely corrupted by our esteemed legal profession.

In the second place, this kind of violence is such a rare occurrence and the circumstances so indiosyncratic, that we have no reliable way to predict something like a "mass shooting." The FBI can't do it, the Secret Service can't do it, psychiatry can't do it, juries can't do it. I seriously doubt the sheriff in Podunk County can do it. And I don't think gut reactions count when it may be my freedom at stake.

In the third place, using his own numbers, 84% of murderers confined in state prisons are not mentally ill at all, so the very best this approach could do even in a perfect world would be to stop one out of six murders. Not much return for upending the very concept of "innocent until proven guilty."

15 posted on 12/18/2012 12:38:51 PM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: SENTINEL

Exactly. I saw this coming years ago and began procurement then because I knew sooner or later this day would arrive.


16 posted on 12/18/2012 12:42:44 PM PST by MachIV
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To: absalom01
.....this country also had a system of mental hospitals where severely psychotic individuals could be cared for, and if necessary, confined....

Have you ever tried to explain this to a Liberal, or for that matter, to a voter. This factual look at what the hell actually happened causes eyes to glaze over.

In hundreds of counties, there are abandoned mental hospitals, the only present use of which is as movie sets. Thanks to the ACLU, maybe instead of shotguns, the cops ought to carry dart guns loaded with Thorazine.

17 posted on 12/18/2012 12:46:08 PM PST by Kenny Bunk (Say, whatever happened to Reggie Love?)
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To: Dick Bachert

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j73SsNFgBO4


18 posted on 12/18/2012 12:48:14 PM PST by Dick Bachert (An ARMED society is a POLITE society!)
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To: hinckley buzzard

It’s the “out darn spot” mentality. Because we have 26 murders, especially the fact that most of them were children, we have to come up with solutions to solve the problem even if it turns out that none of them would’ve prevented this from happening. The best way to deal with situations like these is not as much pre-emptive action as protective action when it may go down.

This reminds me of the hyperbole over hurricane Katrina. Over the years, ever since the early 1900s, hurricane fatalities have decreased with every successive storm but the way that Katrina was portrayed made it seem like it was the worst storm ever. Once we are all comfortable than outliers like this increase in exaggeration and size because the concept becomes more and more foreign to us.


19 posted on 12/18/2012 1:14:50 PM PST by Merta (Like Joe Jones, but in reverse, I talk too much.)
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To: absalom01

Society would benefit a lot more by worrying about the mental health of people than by further limiting the right to own a gun.


20 posted on 12/18/2012 1:15:58 PM PST by popdonnelly
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To: hinckley buzzard
What this guy wants but won't come right out and say, is some kind of preventive detention law for confining someone found to be mentally ill who might become violent at some time in the future.

Well, yes and no. This idea has been percolating around the greater RKBA community for the past couple of years, and really jelled with Clayton Cramer's book and recent articles. Kopel if you're not familiar with him, was an integral part of the "gun wars" of the 90's, whose own contribution to the RKBA argument was to quantify, and explain the role that "defensive gun uses" play in harm reduction and self defense situations.

It's good to see him engaged on this front, as well.

There may well have been abuses associated with involuntary committments, but the present practice, foisted on us by the ACLU in the 60's is, surely, worse.

The ultimate point of pushing this meme, at least from my humble perspective, is that gun control has always been sold as a remedy for the very social problems created by the policies of the progressive left. This is one opportunity among many to call them out, and move the debate away from guns, and back onto crime, criminality, and culture.

21 posted on 12/18/2012 1:19:35 PM PST by absalom01 (You should do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, and you should never wish to do less.)
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To: Obama_Is_Sabotaging_America

I hear you, I;m sick of mentioning this but todays parenting is crap.
It is no coincidence that the elft attacked family values, and the traditional fmaily 40 years ago and then society went to crap.

The left promoted the woman not staying at home and raising kids.
The elft promoted divorce.
The left promoted all osrts of queer weird marriage.
The left promoted women do not need men.\

I could go on and on.
Bottom line society broken down when the left got their social engineering passed and furthered their agenda.

Most Parents today that;s if there are two do not think their lives of careers should be given up.
Get a nanny
get the dog walker
get a cleaner]
eat out often.

ow about sitting down with fmaily every night like we just have.
Talk to kids every day about what they learned and what is going on in their lives.
Get the kids to walk the dog, go with them if they like.
Cook and teach kids how to cook,
clean up after thus teaching kids to clean up after themselves.
Don;t put TV’s etc in their bedrooms, make them come in and decide what you;ll all watch.

Teach morals, discipline, respect, yes sir, no mam, please, thnak you., Hell I see parents today saying “give me that pack over there”
How about “excuse me could I have that pack please?”

How about telling the boy to get up when he falls playing instead of parents running up and asking is it broken, how about telling the kid to carry on playing instead of giving the kid a band aid and ice for a poor little boo boo which no one can see.

No one has mentioned the lack of parenting in th emedia because that is how they raise , so called raise their kids.

lets say those on FOX, they come home kicks her shoes off, grabs a wine and states how tired she is.
Kids have done homework, got a bath and are now told when parents come home to watch TV in their bedroom.

Put a father in the house, have that father raise his child with the mother.
Give discipline instead of telling kids they can report parents.
stop promoting divorce and look down on a failed marriage.

Women have been told to hell with men, get a career, don;t let him give discipline, many mothers want to be their kids friend for crying out loud.
Sick of seeing mamby pamby kids raised off mothers who can only keep telling their boy how great he is /
He sucks at that sport, s stop telling him he;s great, tell him to work to get better as he sucks

teachers telling kids that C’s are good, WTH, it;s crap .


22 posted on 12/18/2012 2:00:01 PM PST by manc (Marriage =1 man + 1 woman,when they say marriage equality then they should support polygamy)
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To: tsowellfan

damn ,, one of the best posts I have read on here for some time.

been trying to say the same but it;s like talking to a brick wall and I;’m at the point of fed up of repeating myself.

I had one freeepr tell me how the mother was great, probably heard Carlson off FOX say it.
She understood she was losing her son too late in life, that mamby pamby crap made him for who he was.
When it;s too late she wants to be his friend and takes him to a range knowing he;s not all there now.
WTH, way to go mother.

My wife was a nanny when she lived up north and saw how many up there rasied their mamby pamby boys and then later in life the mother would spend more time with job than kid.

I told others earlier today how my wife was a nanny for a womanup in Milton MA and how those kids turned out aftwr years with her and how my wife saw how this mother used her money to buy the best but never be there for the kids she bought from another country


23 posted on 12/18/2012 2:04:17 PM PST by manc (Marriage =1 man + 1 woman,when they say marriage equality then they should support polygamy)
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To: absalom01

weird how those years when the attacks on the family and morals were around the same time when society went to crap.

mmmmmmm, maybe it;s no coincidence and maybe just maybe the left have now seen their chicken coming home, reaping what they have sown in society and still they push their social engineering whilst attacking what made the country great.

friggin idiots


24 posted on 12/18/2012 2:08:28 PM PST by manc (Marriage =1 man + 1 woman,when they say marriage equality then they should support polygamy)
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To: Obama_Is_Sabotaging_America

Lanza had a father. Parents divorced in 2009. The guy was nuts and he got a hold of guns. Mental illness is the problem here and possibly very dangerous meds.


25 posted on 12/18/2012 2:38:08 PM PST by ilovesarah2012
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To: ilovesarah2012

Andy Lanza is ultimately responsible but his mother should’ve had a heavy duty gun safe given the deranged son in the house. I suppose he could’ve broken into a safe.. I know she told a former baby sitter not to turn her back on him, even if just going to use the bathroom. That house should’ve been a ‘gun free zone’.


26 posted on 12/18/2012 3:07:03 PM PST by Obama_Is_Sabotaging_America (IMPEACH OBAMA)
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To: Obama_Is_Sabotaging_America

How old was he when she told the babysitter that?


27 posted on 12/18/2012 3:21:28 PM PST by ilovesarah2012
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To: Obama_Is_Sabotaging_America
I have a feeling that when Adam DID have a father, he was a father in name only and not engaged or proactive with discipline.

It's not just the father.

Not to disrepect the dead, but I am firmly convinced the mother was "off," in some way. I heard she served her son vegan meals -- terrible for an Aspie/ADHD, who needs protein. Also teaching shooting to a son who is obviously disturbed. What was she thinking? (She wanted to "connect.") She in fact seemed obsessed with guns. She might have been loving, or tried to be, but most likely was herself in lala land. Lethal combination: passive or absent father, eccentric mother. Both were in some kind of denial.

I don't think the killer's father or brother is publicly saying anything. They probably don't want to admit that the family had a lot of disturbances. Even regardless of the violence that erupted, Adam Lanza needed to be in an institution, given his extreme strangeness and withdrawal.

28 posted on 12/18/2012 5:15:03 PM PST by MoochPooch (I'm a compassionate cynic.)
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To: absalom01

BTTT!


29 posted on 12/18/2012 5:32:44 PM PST by neverdem ( Xin loi min oi)
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To: absalom01

Clearly, Adam Lanza lived in his own detached, little world with alternate values and beliefs.

There are many Adam Lanzas alive right now, planning attacks. We will never stop crazy, it’s like fighting an earthquake. Earthquakes are more predictable.

Does anyone think that if Adam Lanza only had the two sidearms and not the Bushmaster, that he would have not attacked?

We are very lucky that he didn’t use the Saiga semiauto AK shotgun.

Crazies rarely get interdicted, we have a free society and the crazies are smart enough to stay out of the mental health system.

What was his mother thinking? Encouraging his use of firearms? She had been struggling with his violence for years.

His mother is as responsible as Adam Lanza. She made him the efficient killer he became and provided all the firepower and ammunition.

His mother normalized violence towards others.

Adam Lanza was a lonely, rejected and bullied male that finally chose to obtain the power he had always been denied.

Our only real option is to harden locations where people choose to gather by entry control procedures.

Bullet-proof double doors at one entry location only.

Gunshot auditory detectors that auto-dial 911.

A panic button at the secured entry control point.

All exit doors to have electronic locks with proof of closure switches to make sure the latch isn’t taped open.


30 posted on 12/18/2012 6:07:46 PM PST by gandalftb
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To: gandalftb

Well, we’re going to find out about all of that.

As to what to do to prevent the next round of mayhem?

Dawn Hochsprung, the heroic principal at Sandy Hook elementary school certainly had the fighting sprit to protect her young charges. What she didn’t have was an effective way of meeting deadly force. Who knows if she would have even wanted to have her own pistol on site, but I do know that she should have had that option.

The lefty noise machine agitating for gun control enabled this senseless mayhem, and we can’t let them off the hook this time.

Molon Labe!


31 posted on 12/18/2012 6:27:41 PM PST by absalom01 (You should do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, and you should never wish to do less.)
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To: absalom01

In all of this incessant coverage, the father remains a shadowy figure. No on talks about HIM.

I have a special needs son, and I cannot imagine life without my husband helping out. He just makes things RUN and handles the things I can’t. He takes him to Scouting events over the weekends, gives me breaks, helps out with the daily chores and activities. It was my husband who bought OUR gun safe and installed it and made sure our guns were locked up.

My husband and I think things through TOGETHER. That is what I feel marriage is all about in terms of raising children, which is meant to be done by TWO people, not just one.

This is at the very heart of this issue — the lack of a two parent system. Checks and balances were needed here ...mom just a bit off — and no one was there to counter that. Also hearing nothing about the older brother who was long gone ...an older brother also can have a stabilizing influence, where here we had none.

They divorced in 2009 —that means old Dad is in the “finding a new woman” phase and cannot be bothered.


32 posted on 12/18/2012 6:59:49 PM PST by LibsRJerks
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To: tsowellfan

Very well said....


33 posted on 12/19/2012 4:47:57 AM PST by proud American in Canada (Pray for America.)
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To: Obama_Is_Sabotaging_America

Do people still say, after Junior has misbehaved, “WAIT TILL YOUR FATHER GETS HOME, YOUNG MAN!!!!”


34 posted on 12/19/2012 5:47:11 AM PST by 3catsanadog (No more blaming Bush, Obama-now you inherited the mess you made.)
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To: absalom01
People who are serious about preventing the next Newtown should embrace much greater funding for mental health, strong laws for civil commitment of the violently mentally ill—and stop kidding themselves that pretend gun-free zones will stop killers.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

There is no such thing as a gun free zone, anywhere in the world. If you think so, you can be very easily dead or as good as dead.

I have had enough of these surrender monkeys who seek every opportunity to limit individual constitutional liberties.

You want to shoot my kids.Come and get them.

You want to take my guns? Come and get them.

Ventilation is an understatement.

Monlam Labe.

Photobucket

35 posted on 12/19/2012 5:50:32 AM PST by Candor7 (Obama fascism article:(http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/05/barack_obama_the_quintessentia_1.html))
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To: absalom01

“prevent the next round of mayhem?”

There can be no prevention, there will always be a next round of mayhem.

The key is to minimize the attack by hardening the target and getting the fastest response to 911.

Fighting back by educators and administrators has too many problems, is unreliable, and distracts away from hardening the entry control point.

Agreed, gun control is absolutely useless and dangerous as it distracts from more effective options.


36 posted on 12/19/2012 7:50:25 AM PST by gandalftb
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To: 3catsanadog

Excellent point. That put the fear of God in me when I was little. LOL


37 posted on 12/19/2012 8:32:18 AM PST by Obama_Is_Sabotaging_America (IMPEACH OBAMA)
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To: gandalftb

Well, we’re going to find out about all of that.

As to what to do to prevent the next round of mayhem?

Dawn Hochsprung, the heroic principal at Sandy Hook elementary school certainly had the fighting sprit to protect her young charges. What she didn’t have was an effective way of meeting deadly force. Who knows if she would have even wanted to have her own pistol on site, but I do know that she should have had that option.

The lefty noise machine agitating for gun control enabled this senseless mayhem, and we can’t let them off the hook this time.

Molon Labe!


38 posted on 12/19/2012 10:18:02 AM PST by absalom01 (You should do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, and you should never wish to do less.)
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