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How Boehner’s Plan B for the ‘fiscal cliff’ began and fell apart (RINO arrogance, dublicity)
Washington Post ^ | 12/20/12 | Paul Kane, Ed O’Keefe and Lori Montgomery

Posted on 12/21/2012 4:48:52 AM PST by jimbo123

-snip-

Boehner was near tears in announcing the failure to his colleagues, Republicans said.

-snip-

Boehner hoped he could keep the details quiet long enough for him to get Obama to agree to enough spending cuts to satisfy his caucus — and so that his leadership team could make the case for compromise in person.

But the details did not stay secret for long. Reports leaked out Saturday evening that Boehner had agreed to raise taxes on millionaires. That was followed by a more alarming leak Sunday evening that Boehner was also willing to grant Obama another increase in the federal debt limit. Home in their districts, unsuspecting rank-and-file Republicans were stunned.

-snip-

At that point, senior aides to those lawmakers began anxiously reaching out to GOP leadership staff wanting to know what had happened to the Boehner demand that every dollar in a debt ceiling increase would come with an equal cut in spending.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 112th; boehner; fiscalcliff
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1 posted on 12/21/2012 4:48:58 AM PST by jimbo123
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To: jimbo123

Boehner, Romney and Rove support Obama and Soros.

The tea Party, and the conservatives STILL have
not learned.


2 posted on 12/21/2012 4:56:17 AM PST by Diogenesis (Vi veri veniversum vivus vici)
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To: jimbo123
Some Republicans rediscovered a bit of the spine the were originally elected for having, maybe?

Too bad they didn't find it when Boehner was standing for election to the speakership.

Perhaps 16 of hem will discover it when the new House Speaker is chosen and dump this Democrat they have for Speaker. I find that ironic as hell, that the Republican controlled House has a Democrat plant for their Supreme Leader. I have come to fully believe that Boehner is precisely that. He has surely been bought. I can't guess whether it is for money offshore or merely for social privileges in the Smart Set in DC. Boehner is to the Republican Party what the kenyan is to the USA, an insertion from outside forces inimical to the body that has been so infected.

3 posted on 12/21/2012 4:58:08 AM PST by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's Economics In One Lesson ONLINE www.fee.org/library/books/economics-in-one-lesson)
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To: arthurus

4 posted on 12/21/2012 5:01:47 AM PST by jimbo123
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To: jimbo123
1) Boehner's purge.

2) Boehner's threats.

3) Boehner's secret dealmaking with Obama.

4) Boehner just learned the political cost of all of the above.

5 posted on 12/21/2012 5:02:28 AM PST by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: arthurus
Some Republicans rediscovered a bit of the spine the were originally elected for having, maybe?

Well, good for them. They remained pure. I'm sure they will be much happier with the deal that Boehner now has to negotiate with the President than a modest tax increase on the income margin above $1M.

I think the Pro Life movement has shown the difference between standing strong for the full deal and losing everything, or winning what you can and returning to fight another day. I wish we could learn that elsewhere.

6 posted on 12/21/2012 5:05:53 AM PST by ArGee (Reality - what a concept.)
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To: jimbo123

Failure of “Plan B” by the “2nd String Team”...go figure.

Get the janitor in to dust mop the floor and turn the lights off on the way out...


7 posted on 12/21/2012 5:09:59 AM PST by moovova
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To: jimbo123

I just heard some asshole Congressman call the minority in the Republican party that opposed the bill as “Chuckleheads”.

As a Tea Party adherent, the only issue on these bills of any import to me is THE SPENDING. The talking heads keep talking about the tax increases as the sticking point. It isn’t. With no admission or real, immediate reductions in spending, there is no deal. What part of 16 plus trillion and rapidly counting do these people do not get???

Sick to death of these people. Thanks for effing up royally any hopes of a decent holiday. I’m tired. Very tired.


8 posted on 12/21/2012 5:10:21 AM PST by SueRae (It isn't over. In God We Trust.)
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To: jimbo123
Steve LaTourette, a moderate Republican congressman from Ohio, reportedly blamed the “same 40 chuckleheads” for the failure to pass Plan B.,/i>

I hope the "chickleheads" from Ohio vote this moderate obama butt smoocher out next election

9 posted on 12/21/2012 5:11:37 AM PST by Doogle (USAF.68-73..8th TFW Ubon Thailand..never store a threat you should have eliminated))
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To: ArGee

Bullcrap. Boner was negotiating secret deals behind closed doors with Obama. He purged conservatives from their committee memberships and told the others they would pay if they didn’t vote his way.. And Obama offered nothing except cuts to the military and doubled his tax increase demand. Don’t equate Boner’s backroom dealings with the Kenyan and conservative purges and threats with the Pro Life movement.


10 posted on 12/21/2012 5:13:13 AM PST by jimbo123
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To: ArGee

Party first, eh?


11 posted on 12/21/2012 5:16:28 AM PST by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: Diogenesis
It has come to the point where I no longer expect an objective analysis of a situation here on FR because FR is so infested with Republican haters that they actually are working for Obama and Democrats.

A real question is: What do Democrats think will be accomplished by raising taxes on the rich? What we have here is a communication problem. Granted, Republicans are notoriously bad at it, even if they are right in their actions.

Let's give them credit for standing on principle last night.

12 posted on 12/21/2012 5:18:08 AM PST by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: jimbo123

RINO duplicity? There’s a redundancy for you!


13 posted on 12/21/2012 5:18:27 AM PST by 9YearLurker
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To: Diogenesis
Actually, they did this time, finally. See buried down in the article:

Several senior GOP aides said that many of the Republicans were wary of voting for Plan B because they worried it would lead to a primary challenge.

14 posted on 12/21/2012 5:26:07 AM PST by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma
It has come to the point where I no longer expect an objective analysis of a situation here on FR because FR is so infested with Republican haters that they actually are working for Obama and Democrats.

Puh-leeze! How many more times are you going to let yourself get stabbed in the back by the Republican leadership, granny?

15 posted on 12/21/2012 5:29:31 AM PST by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: jimbo123
What does it take to educate the Republican leadership in Congress?

After two years of smoke and mirrors from the Democrats how could any rational man expect a last second deal negotiated in secret to succed?

IMHO the republican leadership has lost creditably and legitimacy to be political leaders. They lost it when they abandoned us, the People who employ them, and left Washington without passing a tax plan to pin the Democrats back - keep the current tax rates 9after eight plus years they are no longer tax cuts!).

Now they are going to wait until the Democrats come up with a plan. Why wait/ We already know what the democrats are going to propose - just look at the public posturing and statements over the last two years!

16 posted on 12/21/2012 5:30:12 AM PST by Nip (BOHEICA and TANSTAAFL - both seem very appropriate today.)
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To: SueRae; Doogle

That assh*le’s name was Steve LaTourette from Ohio.


17 posted on 12/21/2012 5:30:27 AM PST by Clyde5445
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To: jimbo123
Boner was negotiating secret deals behind closed doors with Obama.

I'm not a fan of Boehner, but that doesn't mean this deal wasn't better than the one that's likely to follow. I understand and agree with the principle that punishing the rich for their success isn't a good thing. But I also understand the impact on good people if we enter another major recession in 2013.

Incremental success is better than total failure. A $1M threshold for "the rich" is better than $250,000, and leaves us able to fight another day. With the failure of this deal, I don't see anything remotely conservative emerging.

18 posted on 12/21/2012 5:32:44 AM PST by ArGee (Reality - what a concept.)
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To: Timber Rattler

Ain’t that the truth.

I knew they were not going to cut spending when they allowed O’Care to be funded. Boehner and Co. can all suck the big one.


19 posted on 12/21/2012 5:36:27 AM PST by Clyde5445
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To: Timber Rattler
Party first, eh?

Politics is the art of negotiation, with a good bit of strategy thrown in. If Democrats had accepted the $1M limit, Republicans would have been strengthened by the fact that they had held on after a major defeat Nov. 6. If Democrats had refused the $1M limit, Republicans would have been able to shift the blame for the "no deal" to the Democrats.

How are Republicans strengthened now?

20 posted on 12/21/2012 5:36:27 AM PST by ArGee (Reality - what a concept.)
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To: jimbo123

>> many Republicans seemed to think that Plan B would lead to higher taxes without gaining anything in return.

Whaddaya know? The zany troupe of chattering little monkeys are smarter than I thought.

Oh well, I’m sure the flash of brilliance will fade, Boner will twist their little monkey arms and get what he and Barky want, and they can go back to the par-tee.


21 posted on 12/21/2012 5:36:50 AM PST by Nervous Tick (Without GOD, men get what they deserve.)
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To: ArGee

>> Republicans would have been able to shift the blame for the “no deal” to the Democrats.

You’re a naive one, aren’t ya.


22 posted on 12/21/2012 5:38:14 AM PST by Nervous Tick (Without GOD, men get what they deserve.)
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To: ArGee

Don’t give me your nonsense. Obama and Reid said they wouldn’t pass Plan B. It was a waste of time. It never had a change of becoming law since Obama will not agree to any cuts except for cuts to the military.

The good news is that the next plan put up for vote will be a Rat plan and any House GOP members that vote for it will be PRIMARIED.


23 posted on 12/21/2012 5:43:29 AM PST by jimbo123
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To: Clyde5445

I hope some of our FReeps in Ohio who occasionally correspond to this moron start their Conversation off with Rep. Chucklehead as a constant reminder of who this Chucklehead works for....


24 posted on 12/21/2012 5:44:47 AM PST by Doogle (USAF.68-73..8th TFW Ubon Thailand..never store a threat you should have eliminated))
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To: ArGee

The problem is repetition of incremental failure. The path over many many years is tax increase now, spending cuts down the road. That is the President’s course. For those desiring less government, that is incremental failure

It has been stopped.

Politicians tend to react. We are going to find the truth, the reaction point. Does the president fear catastrophe of the cliff more than the wrath of the national takers society of mentally destitute constituents?

He must now react


25 posted on 12/21/2012 5:48:16 AM PST by bert ((K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 .....The fairest Deduction to be reduced is the Standard Deduction)
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To: Nervous Tick
You’re a naive one, aren’t ya.

It's possible. But I haven't heard from you (yet) how this failure strengthens Republicans. I'll be happy with either a naive or realistic version. I could be missing it, but I don't see it.

26 posted on 12/21/2012 5:54:11 AM PST by ArGee (Reality - what a concept.)
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma

“A real question is: What do Democrats think will be accomplished by raising taxes on the rich?”

That is an excellent question.

All I can surmise is that the democrats are willing to appease the ideologue-in-chief and as usual, put party ahead of the nation.

Perhaps some were secretly hoping for the GOP, as usual, would be the adults, the “bad guys”, and save us all.

Now the democrats have to figure out how to talk obama out of having his way or holding his breath until the economy turns blue, as in suffocated

Me I am trying to figure out how my family will deal with a potential 5-figure tax increase that is predicted for families in my bracket in my very blue state and no that is not in what obama calls the rich


27 posted on 12/21/2012 5:56:05 AM PST by silverleaf (Age Takes a Toll: Please Have Exact Change)
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To: jimbo123
“Really,” he [Kelly} screamed, according to Republicans. “We can’t support our speaker?”

If this is the end of Boehner as 'speaker', then so be it. Negotiating in secret with Obama - BAD idea. Boehner is an old-fashioned, gentlemen's rules, your word is your bond kind of guy ... Obama is a street thug, knife-in-the-back, if his lips are moving he's lying, no honor, no rules sort of guy. Somebody who understands that and can deal with it needs to be speaker.

28 posted on 12/21/2012 6:01:28 AM PST by MissMagnolia
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To: ArGee

Wake up

Bonehead is a lobbyist front man and DC insider .
He hates the the GOP base.
He purged them out.
He cares only about keeping the spending going for the Beltway bandits such as the huge military contractors !
He is traitor and agrees with Obama !
He has funded Obamacare without a fight !
He could pull the plug at any moment !


29 posted on 12/21/2012 6:02:21 AM PST by ncalburt (Axelrod Psych OPS has gone to 24/7 non stop - "The election is over " status until Nov)
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To: Clyde5445

Would that be the guy in the picture with his back to the camera? The one wearing the Ohio State shirt?


30 posted on 12/21/2012 6:04:28 AM PST by Pining_4_TX (All those who were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48)
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To: jimbo123

Notice how this Dem party newsletter portrays Bonner as a victim !
This same hate filled rag attacked Gammer and Newt non stop !
Because Bonner is the perfect DC insider stooge and such a utter disaster that the Dems want to keep him there !

Bonner is there perfect useful
Idiot !
He needs to resign !


31 posted on 12/21/2012 6:05:33 AM PST by ncalburt (Axelrod Psych OPS has gone to 24/7 non stop - "The election is over " status until Nov)
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To: Clyde5445

Sorry, forgot to mention which picture. It’s the one in comment #4.


32 posted on 12/21/2012 6:05:35 AM PST by Pining_4_TX (All those who were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48)
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To: bert
The problem is repetition of incremental failure.

I agree.

It has been stopped.

I would like to agree with you, but I don't believe it has. Why do you think it has?

He must now react

I could be wrong about this, but I honestly don't think Obama cares how many people are hurt by the coming recession, as long as he can reshape America his way. I think he'll drink champagne on New Years Eve and not think twice about a double-dip recession.

I think the only chance we had was creating a backlash against him by putting the ball in Reid's court and forcing Reid to say, "No." It was a long shot, but now that shot is passed.

And thanks for actually discussing the issue. I appreciate a dialog to help me see what I may be missing rather than the normal name calling.

33 posted on 12/21/2012 6:10:50 AM PST by ArGee (Reality - what a concept.)
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To: jimbo123
You people are kidding yourselves if you think ANYTHING presented by the GOP to the Petulant President would EVER be 'approved' unless it was exactly what His Hindass wanted.......period.

Bohner's plan 'B' parade might have seemed more sincere had he not used it as an excuse to act like Obama's mini-me. Maybe he just did it so the rest of the term will go more *smoothly*.

34 posted on 12/21/2012 6:11:45 AM PST by MamaTexan (To follow Original Constitutional Intent, one MUST acknowledge the Right of secession)
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To: ArGee
Republicans would have been able to shift the blame for the "no deal" to the Democrats.


The American media will never let the blame fall on the Democrat/progressives.

Boehner has been politically-neutered and is bargaining/begging from a submissive position.

When is enough, enough? I would rather the Republican party go down standing up and fighting, than be so compromised by capitulation that we are in effect only an arm of the Democrat authority.
35 posted on 12/21/2012 6:11:51 AM PST by John 3_19-21 (There are no winners without losers.)
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To: ncalburt

Boner is a victim of his own arrogance and ineptness. He’s done as speaker. It’s amazing that he thought his conservative purge was a good idea. And it will be fun to watch him try to twist arms to get the House GOP to vote for the Obama-Reid plan next week. Grab some popcorn.


36 posted on 12/21/2012 6:12:36 AM PST by jimbo123
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To: jimbo123

The president DEMANDS a tax hike on the wealthy, or he won’t sign any bill.

I say give him a clean bill that simply extends all of the tax cuts and DARE him to veto it.

He can’t (Bohner hasn’t figured that out yet), because that would mean jacked up taxes for his entire base, or at least the part that’s not on welfare. It would also call out the Dem talking point that the Bush tax cuts were for “The Rich”.

He and the other Dems simply CANNOT and WILL NOT permit that to happen.


37 posted on 12/21/2012 6:22:19 AM PST by BobL (Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21... (whatever the hell that is))
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To: jimbo123

Boehner was near tears because the conservative GOP would not let him cave. Boo the frick Hoo.


38 posted on 12/21/2012 6:23:54 AM PST by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: ArGee

“I’m not a fan of Boehner, but that doesn’t mean this deal wasn’t better than the one that’s likely to follow. I understand and agree with the principle that punishing the rich for their success isn’t a good thing. But I also understand the impact on good people if we enter another major recession in 2013.”

This recession talked is Kenisian (or however you spell it) and is being pounded on us by the Dems and the media. We’ll just see what happens if we start seriously cutting our deficits with the revenue increases (particularly from the poor and middle classes that have had a virtual free ride for the past decade) from letting the Bush cuts expire.


39 posted on 12/21/2012 6:27:01 AM PST by BobL (Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21... (whatever the hell that is))
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To: John 3_19-21
I would rather the Republican party go down standing up and fighting, than be so compromised by capitulation that we are in effect only an arm of the Democrat authority.

I understand your sentiment and I would be inclined to agree if I did not know good people who are being just as harmed by this economy as bad people.

Burning Rome may have been a good way to get Rome re-built with more aesthetically pleasing buildings, but it sucked for a lot of Romans.

40 posted on 12/21/2012 6:27:32 AM PST by ArGee (Reality - what a concept.)
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma

No YOU are the type of GUTLESS OLD “Iowan” who would WILLINGLY plant your lips on the A$$ and start SUCKING of ANY Politician with an “R” next to their name.


41 posted on 12/21/2012 6:29:32 AM PST by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: BobL
We’ll just see what happens if we start seriously cutting our deficits with the revenue increases ... from letting the Bush cuts expire.

For this to work the economy will have to hold steady after the increases. I don't think it's Keynesian to say that's unlikely. There are already increases in the Obamacare bill that will reduce employment and harm the economy. I think we will lose revenue.

I think a hike on those making over $1M might have raised some revenue without slowing the economy, but this general hike will not. And that would not have been nearly enough revenue.

42 posted on 12/21/2012 6:34:32 AM PST by ArGee (Reality - what a concept.)
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To: ArGee
If Democrats had refused the $1M limit, Republicans would have been able to shift the blame for the "no deal" to the Democrats.

__________________________________________

In a perfect (or at least fair) world, maybe. But we are not playing on a level field and the MSM will never give anybody on our sid ethe chance to get the truth out.

The war for public opinion is over for now and not only did we lose it but we got our asses kicked.

Witness the fact that obamski had the utterly despicable nerve to use the deaths of the children in Newtown to push his tax desires and not one word of objection or disgust about it came from the media...not one word.

He wants to go over the 'cliff'. He knows full well that the GOP will bear the blame, regardless of the truth.

He will then use the "obstructionist GOP House" as the reason for the economic failures to take back the House in 2014. "Give me a team I can work with and I will save the country" will be the election mantra.

It will work. He will get the House and use it with the Senate and SCOTUS, which are already in his pocket, to use his last two years to permanently change the Country Formerly Known As America.

That, my FRiend, is the game...the rest is smoke.

43 posted on 12/21/2012 6:36:35 AM PST by wtc911 (Amigo - you've been had.)
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma

DITTO!!


44 posted on 12/21/2012 6:38:06 AM PST by southphilly (Every State should be a RIGHT to WORK State!)
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To: jimbo123

Newsmax

Gingrich to Newsmax:

GOP Gave Obama Upper Hand

Friday, December 21, 2012 12:11 AM

By: Todd Beamon

Former GOP presidential candidate Newt Gingrich told Newsmax late on Thursday that he was perplexed by House Speaker John Boehner’s move to postpone the vote on his highly controversial plan that would prevent tax hikes for everyone except those making more than $1 million a year.

“I don’t understand what the strategy is of the House Republicans, so it’s hard to judge what they’re doing,” the former GOP House Speaker told Newsmax in an exclusive interview. “I don’t know what they’re trying to do.

“I’ve talked with several House members here today — and I don’t think many of them have any idea of what they’re doing. Literally have no idea,” Gingrich added. “Several members have no idea.”

“I’m not worried about this week or next week. I’m worried about four years from now — and I don’t see the strategy in place that is going to catch up with Obama,” he said...

http://www.newsmax.com/PrintTemplate.aspx?nodeid=468638


45 posted on 12/21/2012 6:50:01 AM PST by KeyLargo
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To: SueRae

I saw that on F&F this morning. He was referring to Tea Party types. I thought, “You freakin’ moron! These are the people who GET IT! You, obviously, don’t have a clue...Obama sycophant.”

Screw this appeasement BS! I’d rather go down with both guns blazing that roll over for these POS liberals. America deserves better than that.


46 posted on 12/21/2012 6:56:10 AM PST by Lee'sGhost (Johnny Rico picked the wrong girl!)
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To: ArGee
I think the Pro Life movement has shown the difference between standing strong for the full deal and losing everything, or winning what you can and returning to fight another day. I wish we could learn that elsewhere.

Ok, give us a couple of examples where giving the left what they wanted ever resulted in them giving it back.

Pro Life still means Pro life, but Republican no longer means low taxes or small government or freedom from government spying or right to trial by your peers (NDAA, Patriot Act) or right to property (Kelo, punitive taxes on the rich).

47 posted on 12/21/2012 6:59:54 AM PST by slowhandluke (It's hard to be cynical enough in this age.)
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To: ArGee

(1) Obama is not willing to make real, substantial, painful spending cuts.
(2) Our fiscal problem is a result of over-spending not under-taxing.
(3) The federal government cannot spend a dime without the approval of the Republican-majority House of Representatives.
(4) There is no fiscal “cliff” in the sense that anything earth-shattering will happen when the ball drops and the new year begins (taxes and spending are frequently changed retroactively and that can happen months into the new year).
(5) Conservatives have in the past fallen for deals involving promised spending cuts that never materialized.
(6) The sequestration caused by over the cliff is not all that radical, except to the Beltway crowd. But it would make a real dent in spending and would only reduce defense spending to 2006 levels (in real dollars, i.e., adjusted for inflation since then).
(7) It is bad for the Bush tax rates to expire across the board but if we aren’t willing to see that happen, we will never achieve real meaningful spending cuts.
(8) Negotiating on your back foot, telegraphing that you must reach a deal at all costs and cannot conceive of walking away from the table is a no way to negotiate - anyone who has ever done a serious negotiation of any kind knows that.

Putting this all together:
(1) We need a new Speaker.
(2) We need to go over the Cliff.
(3) After going over the Cliff, we need the House to only approve spending that it deems appropriate and if that leads Obama to shut the government down, as it surely would, then so be it.


48 posted on 12/21/2012 7:07:25 AM PST by Stingray51
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To: ArGee
We see success and failure differently you and I.

A little bit of security in exchange for liberty is not my Idea of freedom.
49 posted on 12/21/2012 7:29:47 AM PST by John 3_19-21 (There are no winners without losers.)
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To: ArGee

“I think a hike on those making over $1M might have raised some revenue without slowing the economy, but this general hike will not. And that would not have been nearly enough revenue. “

I guess we disagree here. Trying to extract money from the very rich is next to impossible, as they have the means to get around higher taxes (including lowering their income, moving income, moving abroad, putting it in trusts, etc.). Almost certainly it will be a net revenue loss if implemented just on $1M and up, which is why, other than France, just about every other country taxes the rich at a lower rate than we do (remember, we have to include Medicare and State/Local taxes). The rich have options and people at $1M plus have lots and lots of options.

The poor and lower middle classes do not have options, the upper middle class has some options, but not many. The only question is whether economic activity will decline if taxes are raised across the board from the level they’re at now. Maybe, maybe not.

I do know, FOR SURE, that no one in the media (other than Rush) was saying that the country would get thrown into recession if Clinton raised taxes in 93, essentially across the board - and Rush was wrong there (a rare occasion). The country, like it or not, did fine under Clinton. What kills the country is when massive regulations are imposed, as happened under Nixon and then Bush Sr. That stops investment in its tracks and forces business to use that money for compliance.

The reason that I think we’re being jerked around with the doomsday predictions is two-fold. First, as mentioned above, very few expected the Clinton tax increases to hurt the economy - and essentially they didn’t - and this will, pretty much, be a repeat of those same increases. Second, no one in the media was willing to say that Bush Jr.’s tax cuts would help the economy - so how can rescinding them now cause a recession? In other words, we’re being LIED TO...in some way.

As to whether the Bush tax cuts actually helped the economy, that can be debated. I submit it was the juicing of super-low interest rates and loans to deadbeats that did much, much, more. That spiked real estate and that carried the economy. Of course building 10,000,000 plus houses that no one needs will cause a problem later on - and it has.


50 posted on 12/21/2012 7:39:12 AM PST by BobL (Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21... (whatever the hell that is))
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