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Was Promoting Democracy a Mistake? Liberalism, the Arab Spring, and the mugging of neoconservatives
Commentary ^ | November 2012 | John Agresto

Posted on 12/23/2012 12:42:44 PM PST by neverdem

AS SECTARIAN VIOLENCE in the Middle East increases, as Iraq falls further into the orbit of Iran,as Afghanistan seems poised to hand over its corrupt democracy to terrorists and Taliban murderers, and as American interests and lives are sacrificed to the depredations of the so called Arab Spring, it might be worthwhile to take stock of what these unfolding debacles mean for neoconservatives and our attachment to democracy’s expansion.

We should begin with Iraq, where our most recent foray into democratic nation-building began.

I was, from the start of the campaign to liberate Iraq from Saddam Hussein, both a supporter of our efforts there and an actor on the ground. I first went to Iraq in the summer of 2003 as a civilian working for the Pentagon and was in Iraq for the better part of the last decade, having finally left at the end of 2010. I was certain, from the first day of Shock and Awe, that the war was good and that our planting the seeds of democratic rule in that part of the world was very good. Because I tended to believe that all people yearn for freedom and deserve to govern themselves,I thought that what we were attempting was good for Iraq and all Iraqis. Moreover, because I looked forward to seeing a democratic nation rise out of the ruins of a Ba’athist tyranny, I thought we were surely raising up a future international friend, perhaps even an ally for America...

(Excerpt) Read more at scribd.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: afghanistan; arabspring; fff; iran; iraq; kenyanbornmuzzie; ntsa

1 posted on 12/23/2012 12:42:52 PM PST by neverdem
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To: neverdem
Could be that the boama doublespeak really supported radical Islam.
2 posted on 12/23/2012 12:47:10 PM PST by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: neverdem

Anyone with an accurate knowledge of the history of Islam would have known what a crock that was. To prattle about Arab “democracy” is ignorant, evil or insane. Or all three.


3 posted on 12/23/2012 12:47:30 PM PST by Noumenon (As long as you have a rifle, you STILL have a vote.)
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To: neverdem
Here's the problem....Those are ALL Muslim countries. That's not going to change.

It's a political system based on total submission to the state and Muslim laws....That means as it always has....Kill all the Christians and Jews. Democracy doesn't fit into their mission. They are obsessed and Islam is not a religion...it's a sick, murtderous cult funded by a huge ignorant population.

4 posted on 12/23/2012 12:49:02 PM PST by Sacajaweau
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To: neverdem; mgist; raptor22; victim soul; Isabel2010; Smokin' Joe; Michigander222; PJBankard; ...
+

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5 posted on 12/23/2012 12:53:20 PM PST by narses
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To: neverdem; mgist; raptor22; victim soul; Isabel2010; Smokin' Joe; Michigander222; PJBankard; ...
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6 posted on 12/23/2012 12:54:12 PM PST by narses
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To: neverdem

Well, democracy doesn’t really work if there isn’t a bill of rights to protect a simple majority from being tyrannical to the rest of the country. But even our constitution can be amended by a big enough majority who can take away those rights if they choose to.

What’s good about Arabs having free elections is that they are responsible for their choices and get to see the results of them. So it’s possible some will see when their philosophy doesn’t work and change it.

On the other hand, if they vote for extremism and end up being foreign aggressors, we can fight back against them without any reservations. We don’t have to feel bad about blowing away Iraqi conscripts in Kuwait because they were pushed into battle by a dictator. We’ll know that when we’re dealing with their government, it is in line with what their people voted for and we can feel free to hold the whole country accountable.


7 posted on 12/23/2012 1:04:04 PM PST by JediJones (The Republicans just pulled another "Boehner.")
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To: neverdem

Few anticipated the destructive arrival of BHO.


8 posted on 12/23/2012 1:17:40 PM PST by Gene Eric (Demoralization is a weapon of the enemy. Don't get it, don't spread it!)
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To: neverdem

Promoting Republics is better than promoting democracies.

If they stick with it, Republics are better. As the cultures continue their downward slide, democracies are just mob rule. Essentially what we have here as we’ve abandoned the Republic and only just played lip service to it for so long, with the Takers vs the Makers.


9 posted on 12/23/2012 1:25:59 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: neverdem

A sophisticated and civil system of self-governance requires a sophisticated and civil society.

Such societies are a rairty in all of human history.


10 posted on 12/23/2012 1:30:59 PM PST by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both)
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To: neverdem
See the end of the movie “Lawrence of Arabia” and you would have known hoe this was going to end up.
11 posted on 12/23/2012 1:36:49 PM PST by SandRat (Duty - Honor - Country! What else needs said?)
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To: Gene Eric
Few anticipated the destructive arrival of BHO George Bush (Or do you think Iraq's "democracy" is different since he took part in flip the secularist for the rabid Mullahs bs before Obama).
12 posted on 12/23/2012 1:49:59 PM PST by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: neverdem

What the Hell is democratic about Islamic theocracy?


13 posted on 12/23/2012 1:58:33 PM PST by a fool in paradise (America 2013 - STUCK ON STUPID)
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To: neverdem

Anyone who has to ask if Democracy is a mistake for Islam (All Islam is radical) will never get the truth of it, no matter how simple it is.

But here it is. If a mob lacks the culture to bring virtue to Democracy, Democracy is horrid. Any mob with Sharia as the foundation of culture is the most horrid of all.

People get out of Democracy what they put into it.


14 posted on 12/23/2012 1:59:45 PM PST by pallis
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To: neverdem

The Neocons set this up with Iraq invasion. USA should have left the old semi-secular Baathist countries alone


15 posted on 12/23/2012 2:10:58 PM PST by omega4179 (Obama retro ad Kenia)
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To: neverdem

Democracy works only for civilized and moral societies.


16 posted on 12/23/2012 2:18:37 PM PST by Mike Darancette (Through the woods and over the cliff ....)
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To: neverdem; All
Promotion of "democracy" by the U.S. has been going on since WWII, the programs have just expanded over the years.

The ping list below is just a start on finding out where the money goes.

The ping list Link takes you the a keyword search of all MEPI threads on FR. MEPI was started at the State Department in 2002, but USAID has been operating since 1961. Much of this "soft power" money is now going to Soros network and other globalist organizations. If you'd like to apply for an MEPI grant, click here.

Ping
U.S. Department of State, Middle East Partnership Initiative (MEPI) Ping List



Phase II, the Middle East: From Here to Eternal Tyranny

Brought to you by:

THE MIDDLE EAST PARTNERSHIP INITIATIVE

Producer: State Department, MEPI
Director: The New Left
Accounts Payable: USAID
Diabolical Planning: Open Society Foundations
Tactical Organization: Empty-headed Activist Pawns
Disposable Vassals: Power Hungry Sheiks and Mullahs
Dirty Work: Jihadi Pawns
Odd Jobs, Cleanup: U.S. Central Intelligence Agency
Cast of Characters: The Obama Administration
Innocent Victims: Themselves
Public Relations: Legacy News Media
Funding provided by: Your local U.S. Citizen

FReepmail me if you want to be on or off the State Department MEPI ping list.

Notice: A lot of humans were harmed so far in the making of this production, but relatively not that many considering that it's just getting started.

17 posted on 12/23/2012 2:32:35 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: Sacajaweau

They’re OK with merely enslaving the Christians and the Jews. Anyone else such as Agnostics, atheists, Wiccans and the like are goners, though.


18 posted on 12/23/2012 2:33:15 PM PST by RedStateRocker (Nuke Mecca, Deport all illegals, abolish the IRS, DEA and ATF.)
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To: Mike Darancette
Democracy works only for civilized and moral societies.

Too sanguine a view of democracy. A republic (or even a constitutional monarchy) with a mixed constitution containing both democratic and anti-democratic (and republican in the latter case) elements will work fairly well in civilized and moral societies. Democracy, not so well.

19 posted on 12/23/2012 2:45:11 PM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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To: neverdem

Democracy works only amongst the civilized.


20 posted on 12/23/2012 3:02:30 PM PST by Flintlock (PARANOIA--means having all the facts.)
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To: Mike Darancette
Democracy works only for civilized and moral societies.

Too sanguine a view of democracy. A republic (or even a constitutional monarchy) with a mixed constitution containing both democratic and anti-democratic (and republican in the latter case) elements will work fairly well in civilized and moral societies. Democracy, not so well.

21 posted on 12/23/2012 3:52:49 PM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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To: SandRat

>> See the end of the movie “Lawrence of Arabia”

It was written?


22 posted on 12/23/2012 4:49:49 PM PST by Gene Eric (Demoralization is a weapon of the enemy. Don't get it, don't spread it!)
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To: rollo tomasi

>> Or do you think Iraq’s “democracy” is different since he

Which ‘he’?


23 posted on 12/23/2012 4:57:32 PM PST by Gene Eric (Demoralization is a weapon of the enemy. Don't get it, don't spread it!)
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To: wardaddy; Joe Brower; Cannoneer No. 4; Criminal Number 18F; Dan from Michigan; Eaker; Jeff Head; ...
The Children of Hannibal (MICHAEL J. TOTTEN) Tunisia might work out OK.

Is President Obama Really A Socialist? Let's Analyze Obamanomics

Your Cellphone Is Spying on You - How the surveillance state co-opted personal technology

Shoot down the NRA - Outrage over the Newtown massacre has gun nuts playing defense (megahurl!)

Some noteworthy articles about politics, foreign or military affairs, IMHO, FReepmail me if you want on or off my list.

24 posted on 12/23/2012 4:58:49 PM PST by neverdem ( Xin loi min oi)
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To: wardaddy; Joe Brower; Cannoneer No. 4; Criminal Number 18F; Dan from Michigan; Eaker; Jeff Head; ...
The Children of Hannibal (MICHAEL J. TOTTEN) Tunisia might work out OK.

Is President Obama Really A Socialist? Let's Analyze Obamanomics

Your Cellphone Is Spying on You - How the surveillance state co-opted personal technology

Shoot down the NRA - Outrage over the Newtown massacre has gun nuts playing defense (megahurl!)

Some noteworthy articles about politics, foreign or military affairs, IMHO, FReepmail me if you want on or off my list.

25 posted on 12/23/2012 4:59:47 PM PST by neverdem ( Xin loi min oi)
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To: Sacajaweau; Noumenon
Here's the problem....Those are ALL Muslim countries. That's not going to change. It's a political system based on total submission to the state and Muslim laws....

Not so. There is a powerful counterexample in Kemalist Turkey, which maintained a stable, secular state for 90 years -- longer than the Soviet Empire -- among the Moslems of Turkey, who 400-600 years earlier under the Islamist sultans, had been the edge of the blade of the Sword of Islam and had fought their way to the gates of Vienna.

Another example would be the secular, socialist, Arab-nationalist state that ruled Egypt from the end of World War II to last year. There, Arab women feared no religious police, did not wear the veil, and did not fear rape by self-righteously misogynistic Arab men.

26 posted on 12/23/2012 5:39:59 PM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: omega4179
The Neocons set this up with Iraq invasion. USA should have left the old semi-secular Baathist countries alone

Not hardly. In Iraq and Afghanistan, we demonstrated a simple proposition that needed to be propagated throughout the Fuzzy-Wuzzy Delirium Continuum's network of state sponsors: Dabble in terrorism, and we will pick a fight with you, come halfway around the world, stomp your guts, and kill you.

The Chinese need to see the hazard of pushing that "borrowed knife" stuff themselves. They're next AFAIC.

27 posted on 12/23/2012 5:47:36 PM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: pallis
All Islam is radical

No, it isn't. In the time of the Mahdi and his original Fuzzie-Wuzzies, the government of Egypt was just as Moslem as he was, and they were not drooling hordes. Neither are the Kingdoms of Morocco and Jordan, and neither are Qatar and Oman. Saying that "they're all like that" concedes valuable ground to the Fuzzies that they don't deserves, and it distorts our own vision of the region.

And I haven't even mentioned Indonesia, where "radical Islam" is far less a force than in the Hijaz. Other than the Bali bombing 10 years ago, they've basically done squat.

28 posted on 12/23/2012 5:59:37 PM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: neverdem

The constitution is what ensures freedom within our Democratic Republic.

Straight democracy like the commies push, is the rule of the mob. The mobs in the Middle East are Muslim. The constitution they adopted is the state’s and the mob’s permission of oppression.

Were these people who were cheering on “democracy” in Egypt for real? How dang stupid can you be! This is the most basic knowledge of government and history. It’s quite clear these muslims had dicators who supressed them because they are murderous camel humpers when in power.


29 posted on 12/23/2012 6:46:45 PM PST by SaraJohnson
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To: BenLurkin
A sophisticated and civil system of self-governance requires a sophisticated and civil society.
Such societies are a rairty in all of human history.

And a fond memory in our own history.

30 posted on 12/23/2012 8:32:19 PM PST by norton
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To: lentulusgracchus
lentulus,

Disagree.

Turkey and Egypt may have displayed a veneer of secularism, but Islamic extremism was always near the surface.

For instance, the Armenian Genocide (at least 1 million Christians murdered) took place barely 5 years before Turkey “transformed” itself.

Most disturbing today, Prime Minister Erdogan, in power now for more than ten years, has steered Turkey closer and closer to Islamic Law, and he received almost 50% of the vote in his last election.

Egypt, in my opinion, has been even less secular than Turkey.

You can't turn on Egyptian TV, at any hour, without finding at least one channel broadcasting an anti-Semitic rant.

Coptic Christians are being systematically terrorized by Muslim mobs.

Anwar Sadar was murdered by Islamic fanatics.

And President Morsi, an unabashed Islamist who recently tried to seize dictatorial powers, received more than 50% of the vote in what is widely believed to have been a free and fair election.

31 posted on 12/23/2012 10:04:34 PM PST by zeestephen
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To: lentulusgracchus
Re: “We” demonstrated a simple proposition...

I agree - if “we” means Republicans.

Al Gore came within a few hundred votes of being President on 9-11.

I seriously doubt that Gore would have launched a full scale invasion of land locked Afghanistan and deposed the Taliban.

I absolutely do not believe that Gore would have invaded Iraq.

And I absolutely do not believe that Obama would fight the Chinese or any Chinese surrogate.

32 posted on 12/23/2012 10:20:56 PM PST by zeestephen
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To: norton

Yup.


33 posted on 12/24/2012 6:16:00 AM PST by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both)
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To: neverdem
John Adams: "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and [Christian] religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

A corrupt people cannot rule themselves. They will vote for whoever promises to steal the most from the productive for the benefit of the unproductive. This is how the Roman Republic died. This is how America is dying.

A corrupt people must be ruled with an iron fist, if only to protect them from their own passions, greed, and stupidity. Democracy is unworkable in the Arab world.

34 posted on 12/24/2012 9:15:48 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: neverdem

The key term is NEO. Dumb as a box of rocks liberal. One degree removed from communists. That degree is Israel and only Israel.


35 posted on 12/24/2012 12:25:21 PM PST by SaraJohnson
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