Skip to comments.Prison vs School: The Tour ( A Youtube video back to back comparison)
Posted on 12/27/2012 8:59:03 AM PST by wintertime
This video was made before the Sandy Hook killings. I expect that the prison-like conditions will grow worse.
Prison vs School: The Tour
Question: What do children learn when they attend prison-like indoctrination centers similar to those seen in this video? When children are in many ways treated like prisoners, and know that armed police and courts stand ready at all times to enforce the incarceration, what are they learning?
Answer: They risk learning to be comfortable prisoners of the state, comfortable with state compulsion, and they risk learning to be comfortable with the continuous threat of armed police and court action ever in the background of their lives. Their only crime was to born and for this they are incarcerated. They risk learning that the people who they should trust have abandoned them.
Question: How could anyone defend doing this to children? How can anyone deny what the outcome of having a nation of citizens comfortable with imprisonment will be for our continuing freedom?
Answer: I have no answer.
Question: Why would conservatives cooperate with this evil?
Answer: I have no answer.
Universal, police and court compelled government schooling is a very recent phenomena in human history. Our nation's Founding Fathers and 150,000 years of our human ancestors, would be appalled at the way we treat children. If they could speak from the dust they would warn of the evil it is doing to children and the evil consequences it will have for our continuing freedom.
(Excerpt) Read more at youtube.com ...
Another Reason to Homeschool
Absolutely! Schools have resembled prisons ever since government took over education, or at least since compulsory attendance laws were passed.
Although he was a fuzzy lib, John Holt had great insights into how schools actually function and how miserable they are for kids. How Children Fail is one of his books.
People claim that schools are important for socialization, but just look how the society in schools functions. There are gangs, drugs, bullying, etc. It’s a survival of the strongest kind of place, and the kids who suffer the most are those with disabilities, very smart kids, and those who are shy or weak. The real reason government schools exist is to provide subsidized babysitting for working parents.
You remember when you were like 8 years old and asked "Why is First Grade called that when Kindergarten is first?" and no one had an answer?
Well the Answer is that John Dewy a Trotskyite from Vermont brought over the Prussian State Education system here to America.
That is why Kindergarten is a GERMAN word it means "children's garden" to have the State raise the Children.
Hilary Clinton pushes this in her Book "It takes a Village", meaning you have to get the kids early and away from the parents to indoctrinate them.
Great comment! This is the absolute truth. Schools are still doing things the way they were done 100 years ago. If the government had been in charge of the transportation industry, we would still be riding in horse-drawn buggies.
Children learn in spite of school; not because of school.
The socialization learned in prison-like schools is prison-gang survival skills that **must** be unlearned to have success in the adult world. Thankfully, humans are resourceful and as adults move on to healthy adult relationships in work, with their families, and in the community.
Yep! Holt was granola head, but he was right about many things concerning compulsory government indoctrination.
schools exist is to provide subsidized babysitting for working parents.
And....Just as you would expect, they do a horrible job at babysitting, too! Their government babysitting service is 180 days, riddled with teacher vacations of all sorts, and is held to a lesser safety standard than private day care. Abuses that are completely blown off by the government in the government indoctrination camps would immediately have social services at the door if they happened in a private day care.
Next time there is a government school mistreatment of a student, please play the game, “What if a parent or day care worker did this same thing?”
Likely, this is true! It is UNKNOWN whether or not government schools teach anything!
Studies have NEVER been done to separate out what **might** be learned in the classroom as compared to that which is acquired OUT OF SCHOOL due to the parents, the child studying at home, private or paid tutoring, and the enriching activities of the parents IN THE HOME!
Think about this!
Parents go to ENORMOUS expense in mortgages and long commutes to work with BOTH parents working so their child can attend a “good” government school. Why would they do this is it is UNKNOWN whether or not the school is “good” or not? When government indoctrination camps post their test scores do they ever report on the number of students in private and paid tutoring? Answer: NO!
And...We are under police and court threat to pay up to $30,000/year/child on a prison-like program for children whose effectiveness has NEVER been STUDIED! Are we insane to allow this?
Yeah! I am shouting and jumping up and down and having a fit. Why do we allow this to continue?
As I contemplate my plans for educating my son, now just a year old, I was considering what do kids really need to learn in elementary school. I couldn’t think of much besides reading, writing and arithmetic, yet somehow, the schools have these kids for six or seven years, seven hours a day, half the days of the year, and they can’t manage to impart those basic skills.
They are treated like prisoners and their only crime was to be born.
They are abandoned by their parents. Then elites pontificate on the why there might be a generation gap, overweening allegiance to cliques ( prison-protection gangs), apathy, and that sullen 20 degree off centered stare offered to adults.
This is opinion - not news and should be placed in the proper location.
Even if government schools could dependably teach reading, writing, and arithmetic, they should be abolished. They should be abolished even if the inmates of these indoctrination camps are worse off educationally. Why?
Because compulsory, police enforced indoctrination is an assault on freedom of conscience, First Amendment Rights, and the human spirit of the child, the parent, and the citizen who is under police threat to pay for it.
It is impossible for any school to be religiously, politically, or culturally neutral. Such a state can not exist in the mind of any sentient human. It is impossible. When government owns and runs socialist-funded and compulsory-use schools, the most powerful voting faction WILL impose its NON-neutral worldview on the rest of the slaves (oops! “citizens”).
Some slaves were materially far worse off after emancipation. The same was true for many citizens in the old Soviet Block when the Berlin Wall fell, but, the oppression of the human spirit demanded abolition of tyranny regardless of whether the results were good, bad, or indifferent.
This video is a reminder that the prison-like conditions that now exist in schools are currently very grim for the students. Do we wish to increase the misery for the children?
Wintertime - given that the Sandy Hook mass murderer was home schooled and the victims were public school children, perhaps using the massacre for a diatribe about public school security and a “Another Reason to Homeschool” ping is in poor taste...
It is all your personal opinion - it is not news.
The Catholic schools I attended in the 60s and 70s resembled prisons (including gates/bars on windows) far more than any public school my daughter has attended.
My experience is as valid as yours and as my opinion is most likely derived from more recent experience than yours, that would make my opinion possibly even more valid than yours - however it still remains my opinion and NOT news.
Your personal vanity does NOT belong in news.
Heck, we were calling school prison back in the 40’s and 50’s when I wa a kid.
Your post is dishonest in its failure to provide context.
Adam Lanza WAS homeschooled. Apparently for 11th and 12th grade. From Kindergarten through 10th grade, as far as I can determine, he attended public and private elementary schools and public high school.
And after being homeschooled for two years, he then attended a public university.
It seems that two years of homeschooling were insufficient to undo the damage of 11 years of traditional schooling, and a couple of dozen people paid the price for that damage.
Good taste or bad taste is it evil to treat children,whose only crime was to be born, like state prisoners?
Good taste or bad taste what are the consequences to our continuing freedom if we have a nation of voters who are indoctrinated to be comfortable with being a state prisoner?
Good taste or bad taste. many in the media are calling for increasing the prison-like conditions that our children endure.
Good taste or bad taste, if we don't address these issues before they become hardened in reinforced concrete government indoctrination camp policies, we deserve what we get (even though the kids don't).
Before we moved, in our other state, we were members of congregation that had many lower class members. It was appalling how many “push-outs” into homeschooling there were in our congregation. These kids were not being homeschooled. They just weren't wanted in their government indoctrination camps and it was the **principals** and counselors in these indoctrination camps who encouraged the parents to remove their kids.
The entire scam was very irritating to legitimate homeschoolers.
And....You are right. There is little opportunity to undo the educational and psychological damage done by our prison-like government schools when a child has spent 10 or more years in the prison ( oops! “school”).
From year to year it just gets worse.
Ping. This is an interesting video.
Your posts are often like chocolate chip cookies...
...with little flecks of crap embedded within.
So much of what you post is good. But there's enough crap in it to make most people throw the whole mess in the garbage.
Fletcher J is wrong to make insinuations regarding the brief homeschooling of Mr. Lanza. But in that you've piggy-backed onto my post, let me make clear that no one should think that I wish to be associated with your lunatic rantings. You are the mirror image of some of the bird-brain anti-homeschoolers around here.
Seriously,....I reviewed my post to you. Just exactly was so inflammatory in this post?
As for the word, “prison”, that I used in the post, the thread is about how much government schools resemble prisons.
If you do not want me to respond to your posts for the remainder of this thread, I would be happy to do that. Beyond that you would need to remind me since I might forget any request that required long term action.
It is evident from you post that you know very well my philosophic standing regarding government schooling. I believe they oppress the freedom of conscience and First Amendment Rights of the student, parent, and taxpayer. Whether the outcomes of any government school are good, bad, ugly, or indifferent, they should be abolished because they crush the human spirit and endanger our nation’s continuing freedom.
If this is like chocolate chip cookies mixed with little flakes of scat, then you are complete free to avoid my posts. Unlike the government schools I have no police power to force you to read them.
I couldn't care less whether or not you respond to my posts.
What's so inflammatory about your posts? ROTFLMAO!! I've pinged bizarro-wintertime, one of your near mirror-images, to provide details, if the poster is so inclined.
You are to be pitied if you truly don't know.
“If this is like chocolate chip cookies mixed with little flakes of scat, then you are complete free to avoid my posts.”
I generally do. Pass right over them. But since you replied to one of my posts, I didn't want to leave readers with the misimpression that I agree with your more lunatic assertions.
I was unaware that my posts to you irritated you. Now that I do I will not post to you. If in the future I should forget this resolution, and you do not wish to be contacted, please remind me and I will fully honor your request.
Respectfully and politely,
I didn’t ask you to refrain from posting to me.
It seems to me more like that YOU don't want to converse with ME.
And why don’t you take a refresher course in basic logic?
sitetest, I guessed correctly that Id get the old no true Scotsman defense... lol
After all, Im sure that if Adam was a hero who stopped the attack, hed be a HOMESCHOOLER!, right? With non-stop celebratory postings on the another reason to homeschool ping list? But since he was instead the lunatic murderer, Adam was really just a public school kid with brief homeschooling, not a real homeschooler. ;)
Since I didnt actually blame homeschooling for the tragedy, I wont apologize for my insinuations. I just couldnt resist the petty pleasure in pointing that factual tidbit out to wintertime, to watch the mental gymnastics from a true obsessive. I support school choice and know & love lots of great homeschool families,
I understand. I merely responded in kind.
A false dichotomy is being raised. Life does not happen in a vacuum. To say that is is either the homeschooling or public schooling is in error. We need to examine the facts before we jump to any conclusions (As many have already done).
How much was due to being in a broken home? How much was due to playing violent video games for hours on end alone in a dark windowless basement? How much was due to his own psychosis?
This failure of logic demands a response. Kids are removed from schools for exactly 3 reasons in order:
1) They pose a serious threat of danger to other students.
2)They pose a danger to themselves through the inappropriate use of school equipment to themselves.
3) They pose a thread of danger to members of the faculty or staff.
Students are always placed in alternative placements before referral to the disciplinary committee for expulsion.
Now if any of these students that wintertime knows so well from her congregation had went to school and committed a heinous act that would be perfect fodder for her to notify Metmom with ARTH ping.
Must be nice to be able to be right no matter the outcome.
I respectfully request that you not ping me or send private mail to me. Please feel free to comment as you like, even using my name, but, please, no contact.
Politely and respectfully,
Sometimes this causes confusion because by asking metmom to ping this ARTH list, some posters think that this is the main point that I am making. It usually isn't.
In this thread, my major point is to ask what does treating students like prisoners do to the child and what are the consequences, later in the polling booth, for our nation's freedom.
While I surely do believe that homeschooling is the most ideal situation for children, it isn't always the most ideal given the parents’ situation. Parents should be able to choose among a wide variety of private options that best suit the needs of their children.
I do hold that government schooling should be abolished. We must begin the process of privatizing all of it. ( For all the emotional, spiritual, and political reasons I frequently mentioned. ) I believe they are evil for the child and a threat to our nation's freedom.
This “article” is an opinion piece, not news and belongs in personal/bloggers not in the news section and until it gets moved to the appropriate space should just be ignored.
Sorry you missed the point.
“This failure of logic demands a response.”
It's not a failure of logic. It may be inaccurate, but it's not a failure of logic.
“Kids are removed from schools for exactly 3 reasons in order:”
Maybe in your parallel universe.
Some years back, we saw a group of kids enter our own loose homeschooling community who, it turns out, were dumped by the local public schools. Strongly encouraged by the administrations of their public schools to leave the public school system for homeschooling..
What was the reason given for the "dumping"? 17 Years of teaching in 3 different States and those are the only reasons I have ever seen.
I didn’t miss the point, I disagreed with it.
What do you think the point of the post was that I intended?
The ostensible reason, or the more likely real reason?
The last line: It seems that two years of homeschooling were insufficient to undo the damage of 11 years of traditional schooling, and a couple of dozen people paid the price for that damage.
If I missed it then I apologize, I have been battling a head cold for 2 1/2 days now.
Head cold - I understand. I've been sick since December 7. Three back-to-back colds. Yech. It's all my son's fault. He came home from college for Thanksgiving with a cold and I think he infected us with all those college germs, which, being COLLEGE germs are, of course, way smarter than our antibodies. ;-)
Anyway, no that wasn't really my point. Fletcher J made a broad-brush attack on homeschoolers generally in order to attack wintertime, who, I admit, deserves what comes her way. It was just a matter of turnabout-is-fairplay.
Obviously, young Mr. Lanza had something wrong with him. It's been variously reported that perhaps he had Asperger’s. As far as I know, choice of schooling method is not an underlying cause of Asperger’s. But if someone wants to talk about how inappropriate it is to ping this as Another Reason to Homeschool thread because Mr. Lanza was a homeschooler, well, heck, then it's time to have some fun with such a cretin.
I think that perhaps to folks who have never homeschooled, homeschoolers may seem defensive. It's because we are.
I can't count how often my wife and I were verbally attacked for our choice to homeschool. We had neighbors who variously: asked whether we were doing something illegal and whether we should be reported to Child Services (a chilling thing to hear when you've just moved to a new neighborhood); told that we were abusing (that's the phrase that was actually used: child abuse) our children by homeschooling them; called us traitors for not supporting the local public elementary school by refusing to sacrifice our children to the public school system (something similar to something you said in another thread recently); told that our children would grow up to be social misfits; asked whether we were part of some strange religious cult (we're just ordinary, church-going Catholics); told that we should have to be certified to teach like all the public school teachers; told that we should be carefully and regularly administered by those masters of successful education, the public school system, which fails to graduate from high school 30% of its charges; asked whether we're just too lazy to take our kids to school every day.
In my state, from time to time, legislators have introduced actual legislation to move toward criminalization of how we homeschool. Some legislators in my state have occasionally voiced the opinion that homeschooling should be illegal.
So, where we see an attack, we attack back. With just cause.
Perhaps Fletcher J thinks he's a real homeschool lover. I guess it's remotely possible, but he seems to be of the sort of homeschool “lover” like you, which is to say that you acknowledge in theory that we should be free to homeschool, and that there should be “choice,” but then when speaking about actual homeschoolers seem to only be able to focus on the few who fail.
With friends like these...
The ostensible reason, as reported by the parents upon inquiry was that the administration of these children's schools admitted that their schools just weren't meeting the needs of these little tykes, and that it seemed that some people were having some success with this new-fangled homeschooling business, and perhaps they could try it out.
I was a little surprised, as I thought that violated the spirit, if not the letter of federal education law. But I'm not an expert in federal education law, so I could be wrong, and I don't know precisely how it was phrased, and when talking about the law, violations of the the actual intent of the law are often legal, if phrased properly.
This, by the way, isn't the exclusive province of public schools. Someone who used to work for me sent her children to a local Catholic school, and when troubles arose, and the parents protested that the local public school to which the oldest would be assigned was a hell-hole, it was suggested that perhaps the oldest could be homeschooled.
Real reasons. A little harder to discern, but here goes. The kids were bad apples, not specifically a danger to anyone, not specifically doing anything to warrant getting expelled, but nonetheless, they were disruptive and likely were corrupting others (they certainly tried to corrupt other children in our homeschool community), and the schools probably figured that everything would be much better without the little rugrats. And, you know, I don't much blame them.
I also speculate that, like most public school workers, they had a dislike of homeschoolers and were engaging in a little prospective schadenfreude at the thought of dumping their rejects on us. Obviously, I didn't personally talk to the public school folks involved, but I've gotten that sort of thing off public school teachers I've known personally.
Last year I had a student that refused to use the Table saw safely. After the second kickback (Yes they were intentional, he used the fence and miter gage together) I requested a meeting with the parents, guidance counselor, and Asst. Principal. He was removed from my class that day.
Adam Lanza, who was 20, is believed by investigators to have attended Sandy Hook Elementary, the site of his massacre on Friday, before being removed and partially home-schooled by his mother.
Trying to paint him as a homeschooler is not entirely accurate either.Looks like his homeschool time was after having attended public school for quite some time.
I know of kids who have been removed from public school as older students because of behavior problems and have had to be homeschooled if their parents wanted them to have an education.
It's disingenuous to portray them as homescooled, implying that it was done for their whole lives, and that that is the reason they went off the deep end.
A child who was homeschooled after having been removed from public school because of behavior problems had the problems before being homeschooled, not because of being homeschooled.
How many of them had "problems" before any schooling began? What definitive proof is there that Lanza's problems were caused by the school?
While I will freely admit I do not know the details of every school situation in all 50 states, several things about this statement do not stand up to basic logic.
Schools DO NOT ask children to be removed - this represents a loss in funding. Every school system I have ever been connected with has an alternative environment for students that do not fit in the normal environment for a number of reasons.
Secondly, there is no guidance counselor in the country with the power to remove a child - and I’ll go a step further and posit there are no principals either. Why? Back to the funding idea. For a student to be removed from a school system, the school board typically makes that decision and it’s never made lightly. Again...back to $$
Thirdly, this is only one side of the situation. Consider a child that has acted so badly that they are on the verge of being expelled - a dark mark indeed - I could see a parent removing them before the paperwork actually went through. Sort of a “I’m going to get fired, so I’ll quit first.”
Lastly, if a child is SO BAD that the local public school CANNOT handle them, I hope to goodness they are closely supervsed when in a casual setting such as a church. When children act out at school so much that they are on the verge of expulsion, there is a systemic problem with basic child rearing that shows up in multiple environments. If I had a young child of my own for which I was responsible, I would never, ever want them near a child that the parent claimed was ‘pushed out’ of the local public school.
That’s my view based on many years teaching, and teaching children with a variety of discipline problems. Sorry, your story leaks water like a sieve - most likely from the parents of the given children putting the most flattering spin on the story to protect their child. But someone with a higher education, a doctorate in a health field, and who has made frequent claims to be skilled in logic should see through the holes in that story without having them pointed out.
Cretin? You’ve hurt my feelings. LOL
I thought you were more rational than the other poster on this thread, but I see now you are more like her than you realize.
“...but I see now you are more like her than you realize.”
Actually, that’s precisely what I thought about you.