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Q+A: Cody Wilson Of The Wiki Weapon Project On The 3-D Printed Future of Firearms
popsci.com ^ | 21 December, 2012 | Clay Dillow

Posted on 12/28/2012 10:51:03 AM PST by marktwain

The Wiki Weapon project is an initiative undertaken by Defense Distributed, a non-profit headed by University of Texas law student Cody Wilson aimed at generating a freely-distributed, open source design for a 3-D printed firearm--an idea that has come under serious fire from proponents of increased gun control in the U.S., particularly in light of last week’s tragic shooting of 26 people at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. The idea behind the project--embraced by some, absolutely detested by others--is that technology will soon make regulating firearms virtually impossible. That is a very polarizing idea. But to say the very least Wiki Weapons is also a technologically intriguing project, one that forces us to examine some very relevant--some might say ominous--questions about new technological capabilities and where they are taking us, as well as what happens when technology gets way out in front of the law. We spoke with Wilson briefly this week hoping to address some of these questions. Below is an edited transcript of that conversation.

Popular Science: It would be pointless for us to ignore the context in which we’re speaking today, given the tragedy that unfolded in Connecticut last week. Defense Distributed has committed to creating a shareable, freely-distributed design for a working 3-D printed firearm--a way for anyone with a 3-D printer to quickly produce a working gun. Does an incident like this one in any way alter your conviction that this is the right thing to do?

Cody Wilson: No, not at all. If it did change what we thought you’d be right to recognize that we’re not serious. I don’t want to be confrontational about it, but I will say it this way: understanding that rights and civil liberties are something that we protect is also understanding that they have consequences

(Excerpt) Read more at popsci.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 3d; banglist; codywilson; defensedistributed; guncontrol; secondamendment
You cannot stop this technology without violating the first amendment and imposing a totalitarian state.
1 posted on 12/28/2012 10:51:10 AM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain; AD from SpringBay; al_c; AnalogReigns; archy; bmwcyle; Boogieman; bigbob; BuffaloJack; ..

3-D printer ping


2 posted on 12/28/2012 10:55:48 AM PST by null and void (Socialism: Equal parts dumb and evil, in a blender.)
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To: marktwain

Cody: The fastest object printer in the West!


3 posted on 12/28/2012 10:59:19 AM PST by HiTech RedNeck (How long before all this "fairness" kills everybody, even the poor it was supposed to help???)
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To: marktwain

This is a technology still in its infancy.

The entire world will be changed by this tech. Today it is crude 3-D printing. Soon it will be an order of magnitude more advanced and will become a desktop assembler.

Small assemblers in the home will create tools, food, utensils, electronic devices, clothing, shoes..etc

Large assemblers will create cars, planes, bicycles..etc

Enormous mobile assemblers will create houses.

Biological assemblers will create hearts, kidneys, hands, feet, fingers, skin...etc

It’s coming... it will change the world.

Its advance is exponential..NOT linear.


4 posted on 12/28/2012 11:21:30 AM PST by Bobalu (It is not obama we are fighting, it is the media.)
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To: marktwain

from what i’ve seen, the materials don’t look like they’d be able to handle the pressures created by firing a cartridge. might be a one shot zip-gun at best.


5 posted on 12/28/2012 11:23:38 AM PST by absolootezer0 (2x divorced tattooed pierced harley hatin meghan mccain luvin' REAL beer drinkin' smoker ..what?)
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To: absolootezer0

There is a company in Sweden doing 3D printing with titanium. I’d consider investing in the firm, but no nothing about the downside of investing in foreign stocks.


6 posted on 12/28/2012 11:29:56 AM PST by aimhigh ( Guns do not kill people. Planned Parenthood kills people.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
It will be necessary to ramp up the current 3-D printers before a “printable” gun is produced. The “proof of concept” plastic prototype failed after six rounds. That may suffice if the goal is to use it to get a real gun as was done during WWII with the $2 throw away single shot, smooth bore .45ACP pistol. However, a printable real gun is going to require a printer that can sinter metal powder into a solid metal part.

That level of technology already exists but is not available at the price of the "hobby" printers due to the costs associated with the higher power lasers. Professional grade printers also have the ability to print larger parts because they have a larger scanable volume.

Regards,
GtG

PS The government answer to the printable gun will be to remove ammunition from the civilian market. Casting lead bullets is no problem. Making cartridge cases without a deep draw press, not so easy. Making smokeless powder and primers (or even percussion caps), big problem. Go back to flintlocks, I don't think so...BLOAT

7 posted on 12/28/2012 11:47:11 AM PST by Gandalf_The_Gray (I live in my own little world, I like it 'cuz they know me here.)
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To: marktwain

“3-D printing” is just a fancy way of making plastic objects using computer-controlled methods.

For making parts of guns, it might be possible to make the plastic parts this way. However, parts such as the chamber and barrel better be out of metal — and those parts can be made in a small, traditional machine shop. A lathe and a milling machine would do all that is necessary except perhaps the rifling, but the latter was accomplished long ago with simple hand tools.

A cross-bow is rather easy to make with ordinary hand tools.

In summary, all the talk of 3-D printing does not really add much to the story of guns. That might change if someone made a 3-D printer for metal objects, but then you are near to a computer-operated milling machine.


8 posted on 12/28/2012 11:48:40 AM PST by docbnj
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To: marktwain

“3-D printing” is just a fancy way of making plastic objects using computer-controlled methods.

For making parts of guns, it might be possible to make the plastic parts this way. However, parts such as the chamber and barrel better be out of metal — and those parts can be made in a small, traditional machine shop. A lathe and a milling machine would do all that is necessary except perhaps the rifling, but the latter was accomplished long ago with simple hand tools.

A cross-bow is rather easy to make with ordinary hand tools.

In summary, all the talk of 3-D printing does not really add much to the story of guns. That might change if someone made a 3-D printer for metal objects, but then you are near to a computer-operated milling machine.


9 posted on 12/28/2012 11:49:17 AM PST by docbnj
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To: Gandalf_The_Gray

I’m working on it...


10 posted on 12/28/2012 12:01:46 PM PST by null and void (Socialism: Equal parts dumb and evil, in a blender.)
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To: docbnj
Yes, guns are not difficult to make without 3-D printing. The Afghanis make AK-47s in crude workshops, and one guy in the US made one from a shovel. The only issue is making the lower receiver (which is 'the firearm' per BATF) because the other parts are perfectly legal.

The only thing that stops more Americans from building guns is the law -- those capable are mostly law-abiding and those who are criminal mostly aren't capable, or interested as things are now.

11 posted on 12/28/2012 12:20:23 PM PST by expat2
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To: Gandalf_The_Gray
PS The government answer to the printable gun will be to remove ammunition from the civilian market. Casting lead bullets is no problem. Making cartridge cases without a deep draw press, not so easy. Making smokeless powder and primers (or even percussion caps), big problem. Go back to flintlocks, I don't think so...BLOAT

Ammunition and propellent are a dangerous bottleneck in open source arms, as a new direction of thought, I suggest looking to the gas propelled paint marker (or paintball) guns and the modern air rifles used for taking big game for inspiration.

http://www.quackenbushairguns.com/

If one is serious about creating an arm that resists being rendered useless simply through stopping ammo production, then a compressed gas powered projectile weapon is a reasonable direction to consider. The potential for a true everyman's arm might lie here.
12 posted on 12/28/2012 12:20:32 PM PST by Dr.Zoidberg (John Winthrop's "City upon a Hill" just became a midden heap. Infested with rats and other vermin.)
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To: expat2

It should be added that, if the libs insist on turning gun enthusiasts into criminals, a lot more guns will surely be made illegally, including full-automatics.


13 posted on 12/28/2012 12:23:41 PM PST by expat2
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To: null and void

please add me rto the ping list


14 posted on 12/28/2012 12:35:52 PM PST by camle (keep an open mind and someone will fill it full of something for you)
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To: camle

Done.


15 posted on 12/28/2012 12:43:57 PM PST by null and void (Socialism: Equal parts dumb and evil, in a blender.)
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To: null and void

thanx!


16 posted on 12/28/2012 1:27:36 PM PST by camle (keep an open mind and someone will fill it full of something for you)
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To: Bobalu

And so goes more of our manufacturing base.

Looks like they’ve invented the ‘Replicator’ from Star Trek. I wonder if in a few evolutions if we don’t start losing the use of our hands, with the exception of typing, although the youth pretty much only uses thumbs anyway for texting and gaming.. :-(


17 posted on 12/28/2012 1:31:42 PM PST by SueRae (It isn't over. In God We Trust.)
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To: Bobalu

Will there be a way to create new butts for old guys so their pants don’t fall down all the time? ;-)


18 posted on 12/28/2012 2:07:58 PM PST by Pining_4_TX (All those who were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48)
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To: marktwain

Yes, the genie is out of the bottle. The ability of small groups and individuals to wield greater force than ever before will change the world. It will probably mean the death of the large nation state, as we see small bands of people defeating, or at least undermining, the former world powers such as the Soviet Union and the US. We could see old forms of government return, such as the nation state.

We may be in for chaotic times. This was predicted to a certain extent in the book, The Sovereign Individual by Davidson and Rees-Mogg.


19 posted on 12/28/2012 2:12:02 PM PST by Pining_4_TX (All those who were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48)
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To: Dr.Zoidberg
Lewis and Clark carried an air rifle on their expedition. The rifle was way ahead of its time.

Girandoni Air Rifle

20 posted on 12/28/2012 2:35:25 PM PST by Jed Eckert (Wolverines!!)
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To: expat2

There’s a difference between the alleged ease of a competent machinist making a gun vs any of us yahoos buying Mr. Maker from Amazon.com, downloading a free M4 file, dumping in a bag of powdered steel, and having a decent functioning full auto carbine fall out needing little more work than a jigsaw puzzle.


21 posted on 12/28/2012 2:38:23 PM PST by ctdonath2 (End of debate. Your move.)
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To: absolootezer0
from what i’ve seen, the materials don’t look like they’d be able to handle the pressures created by firing a cartridge. might be a one shot zip-gun at best.

The regulated part being printed, which is what BATFE classifies as the "firearm", is the lower receiver frame. The bolt, barrel, trigger group, etc, can be purchased without paperwork. The plastic frame got tested, and it held up for six shots before breaking. 3D printers that work with stronger materials will be coming.

22 posted on 12/28/2012 2:43:00 PM PST by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: Jed Eckert

Indeed so.

There’s a decent little video here that covers some of the history of the Girandoni air rifle.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=252_1298914330


23 posted on 12/28/2012 2:48:52 PM PST by Dr.Zoidberg (John Winthrop's "City upon a Hill" just became a midden heap. Infested with rats and other vermin.)
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To: marktwain
I wonder if a printable hand held rail gun might be a possible future. no gunpowder, primer, casing needed. no pressure issues in the barrel from burning propellants.
24 posted on 12/28/2012 3:05:56 PM PST by rigelkentaurus
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To: Pining_4_TX
The Sovereign Individual by Davidson and Rees-Mogg.

Read it a couple of times. Gave copies away, kept a couple. Thought provoking. I think a restored Republic, with a less intrusive federal government, might do well.

25 posted on 12/28/2012 5:58:11 PM PST by marktwain
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To: Bobalu

Been reading Eric Drexler? He was extremely far sighted.


26 posted on 12/28/2012 6:03:20 PM PST by marktwain
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To: Dr.Zoidberg

There are also people working on hand-held Gauss weapons. There’s a guy in Russia that has a pistol that fires a steel pinball magnetically at 300 feet per second and can fire once every 30 seconds. This is only improving as controllers and capacitors get better - and there’s no propellant. Ammunition is anything steel that will fit in the bore.


27 posted on 12/28/2012 6:24:48 PM PST by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: marktwain
imposing a totalitarian state.

The wet dream of every democrat and many republicans - As stated repetedly by their leaders - a nation where only the police and military are armed.

28 posted on 12/28/2012 7:00:17 PM PST by from occupied ga (Your government is your most dangerous enemy)
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To: marktwain
Ultimately the evolution of the ability to gather, aggregate, and communicate data may be more significant than a widespread ability to produce weapons. The greatest advantage of government forces is always in information - which is why firearms registration and databases are at the top of the wish list for leftists and Democrats.

As technology evolves, the public will gain access to new kinds of information gathering and distribution systems. For example, if there was a real time public database of every government vehicle, and where it was located so you could see them overlaid on a google map, then the ability of any government to do much of anything against the interests of the public would be minimal. Obviously such a collection and publication of data would undermine some of the legitimate functions of the government, so few citizens today would or should support such efforts. But the technology to do so is here today, and won't go away.

Similarly, real time video uploads and images from phones record many events as they occur, as do private security cameras. Within a few years real time information about just about everything will be readily available, and many platforms will exist to publish that information widely.

That technology will have far wider implications than 3D printing.

29 posted on 12/28/2012 7:41:34 PM PST by freeandfreezing
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To: ctdonath2

The only part that ‘is’ the firearm and needs to be made is the lower receiver — the other parts can be bought freely. It isn’t necessary to machine the lower receiver — in fact many are either stamped (AK-47) or built from glass-filled polymer (akin to fiberglass). And the 3-D approach is not as simple as you think.


30 posted on 12/28/2012 8:12:50 PM PST by expat2
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To: Dr.Zoidberg
If one is serious about creating an arm that resists being rendered useless simply through stopping ammo production, then a compressed gas powered projectile weapon is a reasonable direction to consider. The potential for a true everyman's arm might lie here.

An excellent suggestion if the ultimate aim for the weapon is meat for the pot or maybe some intermediate range sniping. I'm afraid that the pace of modern warfare demands a rate of fire unsustainable by an externally pressurized gas system.

Let's suppose a rate of one shot per second for thirty seconds. How big must the gas reservoir be to maintain that rate while maintaining a pressure high enough so as not to affect point of aim? How long would it take to restore the reservoir to full pressure with a hand pump?

A reasonable answer to these questions will define a practical combat weapon. If, however, the reservoir is the size of a brace of scuba tanks and takes and hour to recharge I would question its utility.

A spring/piston design is essentially a single shot and would suffice for hunting. A design of either type that minimizes muzzle report and was reasonably compact would be useful to eliminate pests without waking up the neighbors.

Regards,
GtG

31 posted on 12/29/2012 8:15:45 AM PST by Gandalf_The_Gray (I live in my own little world, I like it 'cuz they know me here.)
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To: Gandalf_The_Gray

I would look into some high end portable framing guns, they use a butane cartridge and a combustion chamber, up the pressures say by using acetylene gas and oxygen....?

I used to have a carbide cannon when I was younger.

Even if the feds swooped down and took ALL primers off the market there are other ways to work around or to advance, and thats the goal to advance.


32 posted on 12/29/2012 8:45:58 AM PST by Eye of Unk (A Civil Cold War in America is here, its already been declared.)
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To: Eye of Unk
I would look into some high end portable framing guns, they use a butane cartridge and a combustion chamber, up the pressures say by using acetylene gas and oxygen....?

Have a care when playing with acetylene gas. If I recall correctly it detonated under modest pressure. What follows is a quote from MSHA regarding safe handling of acetylene gas:

Acetylene is the most common gas used for fueling cutting torches...many users may not be aware of the unique characteristics of acetylene itself that create special hazards compared to other fuel gases.

Chemical Composition: An acetylene molecule is composed of two carbon atoms and two hydrogen atoms. The two carbon atoms are held together by what is known as a triple carbon bond. This bond stores substantial energy that can be released as heat during combustion. However, the triple carbon bond is unstable, making acetylene gas very sensitive to conditions such as excess pressure, excess temperature, static electricity, or mechanical shock.

Storage: Because of acetylene's unstable nature, it must be stored under special conditions. This is accomplished by dissolving the acetylene in liquid acetone. The liquid acetone is then stored in the acetylene cylinder, which in turn, is filled with a porous (sponge-like) material.

NEVER ATTEMPT TO STORE OR INJECT ACETYLENE GAS INTO ANY TYPE OF VESSEL, TANK, OR ENCLOSURE. IMPROPERLY STORED ACETYLENE GAS IS UNSTABLE.

ACETYLENE GAS REGULATORS SHOULD NOT EXCEED A SETTING OF 15 P.S.I.G.

FLAME ARRESTORS AND CHECK VALVES SHOULD BE INSTALLED AT BOTH THE TORCH BASE HOSE CONNECTIONS AND AT THE REGULATOR HOSE CONNECTIONS.

ACETYLENE CYLINDERS SHOULD BE PROPERLY SECURED AT ALL TIMES. MOVEMENT OF CYLINDERS SHOULD BE DONE WITH CARE. CYLINDERS SHOULD BE PROTECTED FROM FLAME OR HEAT.

When exposed to excess temperature, pressure, or mechanical shock, pure or less than pure acetylene gas can undergo a violent, explosive decomposition reaction. Additionally, if this reaction, or an ignition of acetylene occurs within the torch base or supply hose, it can propagate back into the storage cylinder causing it to explode violently.

Because of the very fast reaction rate of burning acetylene, it is not generally possible to design an enclosure to safely vent the explosive pressures. Furthermore, because of the ease of ignition of acetylene, premature ignition is very possible.

Very bad JuJu!

Mixed with oxygen it's the ignition energy of acetylene is almost 100 times lower than it is in air. The lower flammable limit (LFL) is typically listed as 2.5% and the upper flammable limit (UFL) is listed as 81%. Although acetylene will not undergo combustion at concentrations above the UFL, it can undergo an explosive decomposition reaction, even at concentrations of 100%.

Messing with acetylene with pressures as low as 15 psi can result in a nasty explosion. Stick to the propane, it's safer by far.

Regards,
GtG

33 posted on 12/29/2012 10:20:57 AM PST by Gandalf_The_Gray (I live in my own little world, I like it 'cuz they know me here.)
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To: marktwain

I’m of the opinion that the most practical use of this technology would be the casting of the metal parts via the lost wax casting process. The printer could print the metal parts is wax to be cast and the non-metal parts could be printed directly.


34 posted on 12/29/2012 2:20:57 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: Gandalf_The_Gray

I have been messing with oxy acetylene torches for 44 years mate.
If i had to make a weapon without regular ammunition I would want some nasty stuff.


35 posted on 12/29/2012 4:02:25 PM PST by Eye of Unk (A Civil Cold War in America is here, its already been declared.)
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To: Eye of Unk
If i had to make a weapon without regular ammunition I would want some nasty stuff.

Well you've got some real nasty stuff to work with there. If the idea is to replace double base powder (nitroglycerin/nitrocellulose) acetylene will get you there. You have the credentials for the job, let me know how it works out.

Regards,
GtG

36 posted on 12/29/2012 5:41:59 PM PST by Gandalf_The_Gray (I live in my own little world, I like it 'cuz they know me here.)
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To: Gandalf_The_Gray

PS The government answer to the printable gun will be to remove ammunition from the civilian market.
***Ammo might be one of the best investments in the next decade. It would basically be a bet on the continued downward cycle of civilization. However, other countries would step in and produce ammunition, wouldn’t they? If the guvmint creates a whole new black market out of something that was once a right in our country, then global tyranny, the antichrist & Armageddon are just around the corner.


37 posted on 12/31/2012 1:39:09 AM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: Gandalf_The_Gray

Just for shits and giggles I spent yesyerday answering a call for help from a professional fireworks operator, he owns a business up here in Alaska and every New Years eve he builds five trailers with angled launching tubes that will initiate about 700 rockets, his transmitter would not marry with some receivers. We are talking about a radio controlled firing device that can fire several hundred electro matches individually or in series, each receiver has 18 firing ports for the wires. The transmitter has I think 24 channels, so you can fire 24x18 or in packets.

Anyway it was basically some bad arming switches, the gear was over 20 years old.

But this stuff is available to anyone, imagine during a revolution people with set ups like this. The 3D printer is indeed the genesis of a replicator such as we see on Star Trek. Why I bet if you had a soy based freeze dried block you could adapt a printer like this to duplicate say a hamburger, a steak, a hot dog.


38 posted on 12/31/2012 1:54:15 AM PST by Eye of Unk (A Civil Cold War in America is here, its already been declared.)
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To: marktwain
You cannot stop this technology without violating the first amendment and imposing a totalitarian state.

And, from 'their' perspective, what's the down-side of this?

39 posted on 12/31/2012 9:17:51 AM PST by RobinOfKingston (Democrats--the party of Evil. Republicans--the party of Stupid.)
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To: marktwain
Um.... Yeah? What makes you think they don't want a Totalitarian State?

FUBO. FMCDH and in a pile of spent brass...

40 posted on 12/31/2012 9:24:19 AM PST by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
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To: null and void
3-D printer ping

I'll be mightily impressed when I can print springs.

41 posted on 12/31/2012 7:51:00 PM PST by archy
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To: archy

You can now.


42 posted on 12/31/2012 8:58:14 PM PST by null and void (Socialism: Equal parts dumb and evil, in a blender.)
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To: null and void
You can now.

Some possibilities exist using designs engineered for these new methods and processes. Using them to build replacement springs for equipment based on preexisting technologies may be another matter.

*example*

We shall see. But things are advancing nicely.

43 posted on 12/31/2012 9:17:02 PM PST by archy
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To: archy
Yes. CURRENT available materials include: Ti and Ti alloys, Stainless Steel, Cobalt, Cobalt Chrome, Tool Steel, Nickel, Nickel Super alloys, 316 Stainless Steel/Bronze, 420 Stainless Steel/Bronze (Annealed & Non-Annealed), Bronze, maraging steels, dental alloys, Al and AlSiMg, 18kt gold, silver.

I've seen shape memory alloys mentioned in the past day or so but can't find the source off hand.

44 posted on 12/31/2012 9:45:26 PM PST by null and void (Socialism: Equal parts dumb and evil, in a blender.)
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To: Gandalf_The_Gray; Eye of Unk

Shove a pellet into the front end of a cylinder, meter acetylene into the center of that cylinder at 10 psi, then abruptly slam a piston into the back end...


45 posted on 12/31/2012 10:10:38 PM PST by null and void (Socialism: Equal parts dumb and evil, in a blender.)
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To: null and void
Shove a pellet into the front end of a cylinder, meter acetylene into the center of that cylinder at 10 psi, then abruptly slam a piston into the back end...

Sounds promising, you'd probably need cast iron piston rings to contain the gas pressure and a spring mechanism like the single shot spring/piston air guns at least for "proof of concept". It might be possible to let the spring piston rebound, cocking it for another shot. Full auto may even be possible. The characteristics of acetylene are such that you don't need air or oxygen if you can get it to detonate reliably from heat of compression it makes for a much simpler mechanism.

I remember a long time back the old Science and Mechanics magazine had a cover story about a rocket powered go cart. The exhaust gas from a single cylinder two piston engine was ported through a nozzle along with steam from the engine cooling jacket. The two pistons were not connected to any output mechanism. They ran a two cycle porting with bounce chambers to return them to top dead center. It ran on acetylene and reached something like 20,000 cycles per second. The inventor called it "loud mouth". Hmmm

Regards,
GtG

46 posted on 01/01/2013 12:02:16 AM PST by Gandalf_The_Gray (I live in my own little world, I like it 'cuz they know me here.)
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To: Gandalf_The_Gray

Yes. I’m thinking a structural plastic frame and piston with a steel spring, brass (or steel?) tube sleeve and cap on the piston.


47 posted on 01/01/2013 12:15:53 AM PST by null and void (Socialism: Equal parts dumb and evil, in a blender.)
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To: null and void
It was really late (early?) when I wrote this so:
"20,000 cycles per second" should be "20,000 cycles per minute"

Regards,
GtG

48 posted on 01/01/2013 7:52:42 AM PST by Gandalf_The_Gray (I live in my own little world, I like it 'cuz they know me here.)
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To: null and void
I’m thinking a structural plastic frame and piston with a steel spring, brass (or steel?) tube sleeve and cap on the piston.

You are entering entirely new territory here so remember to stay on the safe side. Do not hold your little monster in your hand when test firing as one handed typing would slow down future posts. It's better to make haste slowly.

Myself, I'd go with steel frame and piston until I could debug the mechanism and make sure everything works before lightening things up. Acetylene Is unpredictable and without knowing peak pressures (we are talking detonation not ordinary combustion) it's better to make your prototype as robust as possible then carve away until something blows up. Stay safe!

Regards,
GtG

49 posted on 01/01/2013 8:22:42 AM PST by Gandalf_The_Gray (I live in my own little world, I like it 'cuz they know me here.)
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To: Gandalf_The_Gray

Purely a speculative exercise. I know the limits of my skills.


50 posted on 01/01/2013 9:50:27 AM PST by null and void (The internet never forgets, or forgives.)
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