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Why not let taxes rise on the middle class?
The Washington Post ^ | December 28, 2012 | Marc A. Thiessen,

Posted on 12/29/2012 7:44:09 AM PST by Hojczyk

Barring a last-minute breakthrough, taxes will go up for every U.S. taxpayer on Jan. 1 — and that’s a development conservatives should welcome.

Don’t get me wrong: It would be better not to raise taxes on anyone, pursue pro-growth tax reform and cut the size of government instead. But that’s not what the American people voted to do last month. Americans cast their ballots for big government.

Now it’s time to pay for it.

Until now, the growth of government under President Obama has not hit the pocketbooks of most Americans. During Obama’s first term, federal spending grew to more than 24 percent of GDP — the highest it has been since 1946. Yet almost no one in the country (except smokers and those who frequent indoor tanning salons) saw their taxes rise. Quite the opposite: 160 million Americans saw their payroll taxes reduced from 6.2 to 4.2 percent.

How can we expect people to care about the growth of government if it doesn’t cost them anything?

Instead of paying for the current miasma of spending, we’ve been borrowing the money from our children and grandchildren. The national debt has grown by nearly $6 trillion in the four years since Obama took office. That generational theft cannot continue. We must not keep financing big government by passing the bills on to the next generation. Ideally, we would stop the spending binge and live within our means. But if the nation is not up to that, then we should all pitch in and pay for it — all of us.

Until then, Republicans need to stop protecting Americans from the consequences of their decisions to elect profligate politicians.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Government
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1 posted on 12/29/2012 7:44:14 AM PST by Hojczyk
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To: Hojczyk

Last November we voted for big and bigger government, by virtue of the singles demographic.

VAT is the only wat to go.


2 posted on 12/29/2012 7:48:00 AM PST by cicero2k
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To: Hojczyk

Yeah, after all, what’s wrong with the Clinton tax rates? I thought they were the cause of all things good in the 90’s.


3 posted on 12/29/2012 7:48:51 AM PST by andyk (I have sworn...eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.)
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To: Hojczyk

Republicans should have made this a slam dunk.

1. Make Bush tax cuts permenant for everyone.
2. Cut spending to 2000 levels.


4 posted on 12/29/2012 7:50:21 AM PST by EQAndyBuzz (You can't bring something to its knees that refuses to stand on its own)
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To: Hojczyk

There are only 3 solutions.
1- cut spending
2- raise taxes
3- cut spending and raise taxes

It’s just math. We are robbing our children


5 posted on 12/29/2012 7:51:55 AM PST by Bronco_Buster_FweetHyagh (I cling to guns and religion.)
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To: Hojczyk
What percent of the actual population actually voted for Obama. Pools showed that 65% of the people were against obamcare. Half of the people voted to be on welfare and take others share of the pie. Who is the director of propaganda for the demoRats?
6 posted on 12/29/2012 7:51:54 AM PST by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: Hojczyk
"Instead of paying for the current miasma of spending, we’ve been borrowing the money from our children and grandchildren."

No, "we're" not borrowing it. Obama is just printing most of the money. He's stealing it from people who are naive enough to think that $1 today is going to be worth $1 tomorrow.

7 posted on 12/29/2012 7:52:37 AM PST by Sooth2222 ("Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of congress. But I repeat myself." M.Twain)
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To: Hojczyk

Am I the only cynic who thinks that both sides of the aisle WANT taxes to go up - any way they can get it - and that they will both blame the other side but both be secretly delighted that they went up?

This is not about money.

This is not about the economy.

This is pure and simply about power, and taking more and more of our money to redistribute is power.

Spare me the crocodile tears, and spare me the explanation of how this bad thing is really, secretly a good thing - I had enough of that with Roberts and his Obamacare decision...


8 posted on 12/29/2012 7:58:01 AM PST by PoolQue ("The best government is that which governs least.")
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To: Bronco_Buster_FweetHyagh

Let it go over the cliff. All these jerks who voted for Obama because he promised to raise the taxes on the top 2% can start paying their fair share now. Raise everyone’s taxes, cut the spending and go on down the road. Time for the 47% to step up to the plate.


9 posted on 12/29/2012 8:00:33 AM PST by kjam22 (my newest music video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VciTnYA4Bfk)
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To: Hojczyk

Obama and the lame stream media will blame the Republicans for the tax increases and the “low information” voters (e.i. idiots) will believe this BS. I fail to understand why the GOP isn’t hammering on the fact that Obama’s tax increase on the “rich” making $200,000+ wouldn’t fund even two weeks of government spending at current levels. This tax increase is Marxist income redistribution plain and simple and does not even make a dent in our deficit. Why doesn’t someone in the GOP have the balls to call this tax increase what it is... pure Marxism?


10 posted on 12/29/2012 8:01:58 AM PST by The Great RJ
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To: Bronco_Buster_FweetHyagh

Who robbed our children? I sure didn’t . You add up ALL of the taxes and fees that we pay to our government which is probably close to 40 % and you say that isn’t enough?! NO, OUR government is robbing us blind and misusing our funds like an attorney that embezzles from his own clients when he’s the manager of their trust funds.


11 posted on 12/29/2012 8:03:17 AM PST by jsanders2001
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To: Hojczyk

This guy NAILS IT...and sounds a lot like me.

I’m am SICK OF PLAYING TAX POLICEMAN for the wealthy INGRATES that keep voting Democrat.

If they want Democrats so bad and the big government that comes with Democrats, THEN FINE, let them start paying the taxes.

Sorry for you conservatives, that, like me, will also get hit, but the INGRATES will be SCREAMING like mad at the Democrats they elected, especially in the Northeast and California, and I would JUST LOVE to see that.


12 posted on 12/29/2012 8:04:19 AM PST by BobL (Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21... (whatever the hell that is))
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To: Hojczyk
Some of the 47% that pays now feral income tax will finally have some skin in the game.

Most of them won't bother to file. A chance to turn them in and collect the IRS reward.

13 posted on 12/29/2012 8:05:03 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum ("Democracy is indispensable to socialism. The goal of socialism is communism." --Vladimir Lenin)
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To: jsanders2001

I say we meaning our collectively elected government.


14 posted on 12/29/2012 8:05:12 AM PST by Bronco_Buster_FweetHyagh (I cling to guns and religion.)
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To: cicero2k
VAT is the only way to go.

Then get ready for government spending to rise to 35% and then to 40% of GDP... I know Obama would dearly love to have a VAT in addition to the Clinton income tax rates (and all of the other taxes). You'll never get the dems to give up any of their tax policies, so adding a VAT is just an invitation to more spending and ever larger government.

15 posted on 12/29/2012 8:07:14 AM PST by ReleaseTheHounds ("The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." M. Thatcher)
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To: Hojczyk

Absolutely. For a decade we have been hearing about how the Bush tax cuts only benefited the rich. So let them expire and this should screw the rich. Or will the meme suddenly change?


16 posted on 12/29/2012 8:12:10 AM PST by tips up (Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.)
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To: cicero2k

“VAT is the only wat to go.”

AGREE!!! We also need to raise the gas tax to about $5.00 per gallon (total), and let the Bush Tax Cuts expire.

All three of the above will get us closer to a balanced budget - maybe all the way, providing that the Republicans keep spending under control in the House.

I am SICK TO DEATH of the INGRATES, including many on this site, that insist on their goodies (like Social Security and Medicare) but want my kids and future grandkids to have to pay for it. If you want your GOODIES, then PAY FOR IT YOURSELF and leave my kids alone!!!


17 posted on 12/29/2012 8:12:47 AM PST by BobL (Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21... (whatever the hell that is))
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To: Bronco_Buster_FweetHyagh

“I say we meaning our collectively elected government.”

Exactly. All we know is that our kids and grand kids DID NOT vote to start life off with what is now $50,000 of debt on their backs, and going up at $5,000 per year.

Yes, I know that most here never voted for the nimrods that are doing this spending, but most here still feel ENTITLED to the money my kids earn, for their goodies from the government (i.e., Social Security and Medicare). So I have no sympathy for them and hope those pyramid schemes collapse tomorrow.


18 posted on 12/29/2012 8:17:55 AM PST by BobL (Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21... (whatever the hell that is))
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To: Hojczyk

I agree with this...

If the voters want the spending, then they need to be willing to pay for it. Every body’s taxes SHOULD go up to pay for it. As long as the voters think they are getting a free ride, why not have obama phones for everybody...


19 posted on 12/29/2012 8:21:48 AM PST by babygene ( .)
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To: Hojczyk

Why not start taxing the 47% that pay no federal income tax at all?


20 posted on 12/29/2012 8:22:18 AM PST by meyer (Proud member of the 53%.)
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To: Bronco_Buster_FweetHyagh
We know what needs to be done, but Byron York at Washington Examiner predicts what will go down this weekend:

Fiscal cliff is avoided, but sequestered cuts proceed.
Predictions are there will be enough WH, House and Senate support to make Bush tax cuts "permanent" for all below 400 or 500,000.
No spending concessions now other than those sequestered.
Republicans then hang their hopes on major spending cuts or in exchange for a debt limit increase in a month or so.

IF Republicans do hold on the debt limit, this could work. Big IF, however, as York notes, but they are apparently girding their loins for that fight.

21 posted on 12/29/2012 8:23:04 AM PST by chiller (Do not consume any NBCNews;MTPTodayNightlyNewsMorningJoeMSNBCBrianWilliams)
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To: BobL

AGREE!!! We also need to raise the gas tax to about $5.00 per gallon (total), and let the Bush Tax Cuts expire.
____________________________________

We part ways on gas tax. Cheap energy is the only way to grow this economy.

However, as long as VAT is not means tested, everyone feels it via higher prices.

The reality is that we voted for bigger government.


22 posted on 12/29/2012 8:23:27 AM PST by cicero2k
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To: BobL
I am just a few years away from collecting but I would happily give up ALL of my socialist security and medicare if the government would just cancel those programs and get GTF out of my life... but they see unending money that they can steal from future generations so they will never do it. What we need is to just vote out every sumbich in DC... they have ALL been there for far too long and ALL are guilty... republican and dim... the dims about 70% and the republicans about 30%. Not a single person serving needs to remain. New people with their minds right and term limits might save us but the thieves and murderers and terrorists residing in both houses of Congress will never stop stealing, moving the country to the left or killing long enough to save America.

LLS

23 posted on 12/29/2012 8:24:20 AM PST by LibLieSlayer (FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!)
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To: meyer

“Why not start taxing the 47% that pay no federal income tax at all?”

Ending the Bush tax cuts likely snags at least 10% of that bunch, as they lose the much lower tax rates at the bottom end, and the children’s tax credit - and probably other stuff too.

Remember that most of that 47% still do work - they just don’t pay any taxes because of the stupid Republicans giving them a pass on it.


24 posted on 12/29/2012 8:25:54 AM PST by BobL (Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21... (whatever the hell that is))
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To: The Great RJ
No one in the gop even believes in America or our way of life any longer. They are all anti American criminals... in the largest organized crime family in the history of the world... the us government.

LLS

25 posted on 12/29/2012 8:26:26 AM PST by LibLieSlayer (FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!)
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To: BobL

>> I am SICK TO DEATH of the INGRATES, including many on this site

Remind me again what branch of the military you served within?


26 posted on 12/29/2012 8:27:42 AM PST by Nervous Tick (Without GOD, men get what they deserve.)
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To: Hojczyk

Why not let taxes rise on all those who say “why not let taxes rise,” and on all those who say, “I need to pay more taxes.”

And leave the rest of us alone.


27 posted on 12/29/2012 8:28:10 AM PST by DPMD
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To: LibLieSlayer

“I am just a few years away from collecting but I would happily give up ALL of my socialist security and medicare if the government would just cancel those programs and get GTF out of my life”

I like you. Unfortunately, it seems that half of the people in your shoes just want their goodies and could care less how they get them. I’m sure they have kids - but they just unable to see any linkage to the damage they are doing.


28 posted on 12/29/2012 8:28:14 AM PST by BobL (Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21... (whatever the hell that is))
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To: Nervous Tick

“Remind me again what branch of the military you served within?”

No, sorry, but serving in the military DOES NOT give you the right to make debt-slaves out of my kids and grandkids. If you feel differently, then you should have fought for the other side.


29 posted on 12/29/2012 8:30:51 AM PST by BobL (Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21... (whatever the hell that is))
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To: BobL

>> No, sorry, but serving in the military DOES NOT give you the right to make debt-slaves out of my kids and grandkids.

I don’t believe I ever said it did. I merely asked you a simple question, the answer to which you side-stepped.

May I assume, then, that you have NOT served in our armed forces?


30 posted on 12/29/2012 8:34:15 AM PST by Nervous Tick (Without GOD, men get what they deserve.)
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To: Hojczyk

Dumbass GOP

The Demoncrats want to go where the REAL money is. That
would be the MIDDLE CLASS (sorry for screaming). They can’t
get there until the “middies” have been convinced that the
wealthy have been tapped out first. What the GOP would be
smart to do is to announce that they would not stand in the
way of increased taxes on those w/$500K plus income but that
the Demos would have to pledge not to mess w/the middle
class for ten (or whatever) years. Let them sweat for a change.


31 posted on 12/29/2012 8:34:38 AM PST by Sivad (Nor Cal Red Turf)
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To: BobL
ALL entitlements were lies from the very beginning... they always have been and they always will be... lies are of satan because satan in the prince of lies.

LLS

32 posted on 12/29/2012 8:35:29 AM PST by LibLieSlayer (FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!)
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To: Nervous Tick

You DO NOT have the right to silence people you disagree with, for ANY REASON.

Sorry, again, but I will not stop fighting you guys.


33 posted on 12/29/2012 8:35:58 AM PST by BobL (Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21... (whatever the hell that is))
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To: Sooth2222
Your point is spot on. We can either declare our default immediately and honestly or we can hide it by slowly defaulting over time via inflation. Either way we aint paying and our children aint paying.

I believe most people hold to the “our children and grandchildren will pay” doctrine so as to affirm that they will be paid Social Security and other various welfare schemes such as Medicare, government pensions. They believed they have earned it and are entitled to it and besides they were promised, the politicians squandered it, its an inter-generational pact, they sacrificed....

34 posted on 12/29/2012 8:38:15 AM PST by FreedomNotSafety
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To: Sivad

“What the GOP would be smart to do is to announce that they would not stand in the way of increased taxes on those w/$500K plus income but that the Demos would have to pledge not to mess w/the middle class for ten (or whatever) years.”

Sure, the Dems will promise ANYTHING now, just as they’ve promised spending cuts in the past - starting with their deal to get Bush Sr. to give up his “Read My Lips” pledge. In other words, that will never work.


35 posted on 12/29/2012 8:39:07 AM PST by BobL (Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21... (whatever the hell that is))
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To: BobL

Hold the phone BobL......you say there are those on this site that insist on their goodies like Social Security and Medicare? Uh, excuse me, but haven’t we ALL been forced to pay INTO it all these years?? How’s about the gooberment paying back the monies they’ve stolen from Social Security and go after the FRAUD in Medicare for starters? I’m down to my last nerve with those that think that 50 years of working and paying into these programs that we’re somehow responsible for all the ills of society and we should give up our benefits and dare I say our PENSIONS to which alot of us paid about 10% of our pay toward said pensions for years on end? Those that are the loudest about this better hope they never get old and if they’re in some kind of pension plan and yes, SS and Medicare....they better hope they get it back!


36 posted on 12/29/2012 8:41:47 AM PST by Dawgreg (Happiness is not having what you want, but wanting what you have.)
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To: BobL

>> You DO NOT have the right to silence people you disagree with, for ANY REASON.

I think you have a chip on your shoulder. It’s not my intent to “silence” you.

>> Sorry, again, but I will not stop fighting you guys.

Who exactly are “we guys” that you will not “stop fighting”, and how do you know that I am part of “them”?

Let’s review the facts, shall we? I asked you the sum total of ONE question. I have made ZERO comments about the views you have expressed. Everything you have said since then is your own “allergic reaction” to my simple and innocent question. This reveals a lot about you, your views, your temper and you personality. Very interesting!


37 posted on 12/29/2012 8:44:43 AM PST by Nervous Tick (Without GOD, men get what they deserve.)
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To: LibLieSlayer
I am just a few years away from collecting but I would happily give up ALL of my socialist security and medicare if the government would just cancel those programs and get GTF out of my life

I'm in complete agreement. The problem with those programs is that they were turned into a slush fund for the politicians. We need to end them ASAP. I am 50 and I will gladly pay for SS for those older than me provided I can turn my IRA savings into a Roth. Other people who did not save should be given a bigger tax break for saving.

While we are at it, let's get rid of the Fed and their war on savers.

38 posted on 12/29/2012 8:48:54 AM PST by palmer (Obama = Carter + affirmative action)
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To: Dawgreg

“Hold the phone BobL......you say there are those on this site that insist on their goodies like Social Security and Medicare? Uh, excuse me, but haven’t we ALL been forced to pay INTO it all these years??”

Doesn’t matter...the money you paid in IS GONE, and everyone knows it and they have known it FOR DECADES. I knew it nearly 30 years ago when I first started working.

So, with the money gone - we’re now talking about programs that are no different than Welfare - which is the TAKING of money by force from people earning to and giving it to the people that don’t work.

I simply have a problem with that, as it’s no different than me ‘investing’ my money with Bernie Madoff, losing it to him, and then me going to may neighbor’s house with a shotgun to demand he pay me back. It is NOT my neighbor’s fault that the money is gone. It doesn’t matter that Bernie sent me the nice statements telling me how rich I was - the money is simply gone.

...and no, we will NEVER be able to get it back from the politicians who spent it - it’s long gone, at least 99% of it.


39 posted on 12/29/2012 8:51:15 AM PST by BobL (Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21... (whatever the hell that is))
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To: Nervous Tick
I assume you have a government pension based on your military service? And you believe that someone should pay for it? Was your service exchanged for the promise of this pension?

Government pensions of any sort are purely political calculations. They are not earned and invested in any sort of actuarial basis. You got paid in promises of a pension. So those who made the promise should pay you. Disagree? Look up what Jefferson says about the theory of “inter-generational debt”.

40 posted on 12/29/2012 8:53:02 AM PST by FreedomNotSafety
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To: Nervous Tick

Regardless, this is not a thread about military service, so by bringing it up you are attempting to discredit me, rather than respond to my point.

That is a legitimate way to argue when you don’t have a leg to stand on, but it doesn’t mean that I will fall for it.


41 posted on 12/29/2012 8:53:24 AM PST by BobL (Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21... (whatever the hell that is))
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To: FreedomNotSafety

>> I assume you have a government pension based on your military service?

No, I don’t. Why would you assume that?


42 posted on 12/29/2012 8:57:08 AM PST by Nervous Tick (Without GOD, men get what they deserve.)
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To: palmer

The programs were not turned into a slush fund. They were always a slush fund. There is no “Paying into it” because there never was an it. SS is not broke because it owes nothing.


43 posted on 12/29/2012 8:58:25 AM PST by FreedomNotSafety
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To: Nervous Tick

Based on your earlier question. So if you didn’t serve why bring it up? Or were you bating us? If so, well played.


44 posted on 12/29/2012 9:01:24 AM PST by FreedomNotSafety
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To: Nervous Tick

You’re both utter morons. Like good little Liberals, you go about attacking the messenger, as if their past or present status has ANYTHING to do with the point they are making. There’s a reason most others ignore your posts here.


45 posted on 12/29/2012 9:04:48 AM PST by Teacher317 ('Tis time to fear when tyrants seem to kiss.)
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To: Hojczyk
How can we expect people to care about the growth of government if it doesn’t cost them anything?

Amen!!!

Conservatives... should be all about less government and hence lower taxes. And such taxes should hit everyone or we get bigger government [anathema of conservatism.]

So go over the cliff with the purpose of reducing the size of government. When everyone pays for government, everyone wants it to cost less.

So, if taxes must go up, conservatives should want to have everyone's taxes go up - NOT just some.

0imposter wants us to give-in on this principle and just tax some. DON'T DO IT!!!

46 posted on 12/29/2012 9:08:27 AM PST by Principled
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To: BobL

>> you are attempting to discredit me

Actually, no. That’s just another one of your projections. I don’t really care to argue with you at all.

In this thread and others, you put on those ol’ Judge’s robes and slam down that gavel pretty hard on all of us. Just checking out your credentials, Judge, to see if it’s worth my valuable time to sit in your courtroom audience in the future, or perhaps instead find someone with more wisdom and experience to listen to.


47 posted on 12/29/2012 9:09:03 AM PST by Nervous Tick (Without GOD, men get what they deserve.)
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To: FreedomNotSafety

>> So if you didn’t serve why bring it up?

I didn’t say I didn’t serve. I said I don’t have a pension, which was the answer to the question you actually asked.


48 posted on 12/29/2012 9:11:59 AM PST by Nervous Tick (Without GOD, men get what they deserve.)
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To: Nervous Tick

“Actually, no. That’s just another one of your projections. I don’t really care to argue with you at all.”

Then you’re trolling.


49 posted on 12/29/2012 9:15:30 AM PST by BobL (Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21... (whatever the hell that is))
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To: BobL

“In other words, it will never work.”

Oh, yes it will. True, Demos will not worry about breaking a
pledge down the road. But they will shutter at the thought of
having to make a promise they don’t want to keep. This is as
much political theater as it is anything else and the Demos are
expert at tossing the GOP into the orchestra pit. Time to change
the show a little. You just need to understand that the Demos
crave middle class tax money because that is where most of the
money is.


50 posted on 12/29/2012 9:18:12 AM PST by Sivad (Nor Cal Red Turf)
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