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WHY GOOD PEOPLE NEED SEMIAUTOMATIC FIREARMS AND “HIGH CAPACITY” MAGAZINES … Part I
Backwoods Home Magazine ^ | 29 December, 2012 | Massad Ayoob

Posted on 12/30/2012 7:39:02 AM PST by marktwain

If you’re reading this, you’ve probably had a conversation with someone in the last few days who asked, “Why do ordinary law-abiding people need those semiautomatic firearms with magazines that can hold more than ten cartridges?” There are lots of sound answers.

For one thing, defensive firearms are meant to be “equalizers,” force multipliers that can allow one good person to defend against multiple evil people. To allow one good person to defend against a single evil person so much stronger and/or bigger and/or more violent than he or she, that the attacker’s potentially lethal assault can be stopped. History shows that it often takes many gunshots to stop even a single determined aggressor. Most police officers have seen the famous autopsy photo in the cops-only text book “Street Survival” of the armed robber who soaked up 33 police 9mm bullets before he stopped trying to kill the officers. Consider Lance Thomas, the Los Angeles area watch shop owner who was in many shootouts with multiple gang bangers who tried to rob and murder him. He shot several of them, and discovered that it took so many hits to stop them that he placed multiple loaded handguns every few feet along his workbench. That’s not possible in a home, or when lawfully carrying concealed on the street: a semiautomatic pistol with a substantial cartridge capacity makes much more sense for that defensive application.

Semiautomatic rifles? Consider this heart-breaking, fatal home invasion in Florida http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Byrd_and_Melanie_Billings and ask yourself if it might have turned out differently had the homeowners been able to access and competently deploy something like, oh, a Bushmaster AR15 with 30 round magazine.

(Excerpt) Read more at backwoodshome.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: banglist; guncontrol; highcapacity; magazine; secondamendment; semiauto
Good information to help defend the RKBA. It should not be necessary, but it is.
1 posted on 12/30/2012 7:39:11 AM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain

WHY GOOD PEOPLE NEED SEMIAUTOMATIC FIREARMS AND “HIGH CAPACITY” MAGAZINES … Part I

Saturday, December 29th, 2012

If you’re reading this, you’ve probably had a conversation with someone in the last few days who asked, “Why do ordinary law-abiding people need those semiautomatic firearms with magazines that can hold more than ten cartridges?” There are lots of sound answers.

For one thing, defensive firearms are meant to be “equalizers,” force multipliers that can allow one good person to defend against multiple evil people. To allow one good person to defend against a single evil person so much stronger and/or bigger and/or more violent than he or she, that the attacker’s potentially lethal assault can be stopped. History shows that it often takes many gunshots to stop even a single determined aggressor. Most police officers have seen the famous autopsy photo in the cops-only text book “Street Survival” of the armed robber who soaked up 33 police 9mm bullets before he stopped trying to kill the officers. Consider Lance Thomas, the Los Angeles area watch shop owner who was in many shootouts with multiple gang bangers who tried to rob and murder him. He shot several of them, and discovered that it took so many hits to stop them that he placed multiple loaded handguns every few feet along his workbench. That’s not possible in a home, or when lawfully carrying concealed on the street: a semiautomatic pistol with a substantial cartridge capacity makes much more sense for that defensive application.

Semiautomatic rifles? Consider this heart-breaking, fatal home invasion in Florida (link) and ask yourself if it might have turned out differently had the homeowners been able to access and competently deploy something like, oh, a Bushmaster AR15 with 30 round magazine. I teach every year in Southern Arizona, and each year I see more Americans along the border with AR15s and similar rifles in their ranch vehicles and even their regular cars. There have been cases where innocent ranchers and working cops alike have been jeopardized by multiple, heavily armed drug smugglers and human traffickers in desert fights far from police response and backup. A semiautomatic rifle with a substantial magazine capacity can be reassuring in such situations, as seen here: (link)

In the last twenty years, we have seen epic mob violence in American streets. During the Rodney King riots in Los Angeles, Korean storekeepers armed with AR15s kept their stores and livelihoods – and lives – from the torches of inflamed crowds because the mob feared their force multipliers. Read this, for a survivor’s account: (link). There have been bands of roving, violent predators as lately as this year during the Sandy storm. And the “flash mob violence” phenomenon of recent years has left many urban dwellers picturing themselves as the lone victim of a feral human wolfpack.

And, if you will, one more stark and simple thing: Americans have historically modeled their choices of home protection and personal defense handguns on what the cops carried. When the police carried .38 revolvers as a rule, the .38 caliber revolver was the single most popular choice among armed citizens. In the 1980s and into the 1990s, cops switched en masse to semiautomatic pistols. So did the gun-buying public. Today, the most popular handgun among police seems to be the 16-shot, .40 caliber Glock semiautomatic. Not surprisingly, the general public has gone to pistols bracketing that caliber in power (9mm, .40, .45) with similar enthusiasm. The American police establishment has also largely switched from the 12 gauge shotgun which was also the traditional American home defense weapon, to the AR15 patrol rifle with 30-round magazine…and, not surprisingly, the law-abiding citizenry has followed suit there, too.

The reasoning is strikingly clear. The cops are the experts on the current criminal trends. If they have determined that a “high capacity” semiautomatic pistol and a .223 semiautomatic rifle with 30-round magazines are the best firearms for them to use to protect people like me and my family, they are obviously the best things for us to use to protect ourselves and our families .

2 posted on 12/30/2012 7:50:02 AM PST by GreenAccord (Bacon Akbar)
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To: marktwain


3 posted on 12/30/2012 7:51:06 AM PST by Iron Munro (I MISS AMERICA !)
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To: marktwain
“Why do ordinary law-abiding people need those semiautomatic firearms with magazines that can hold more than ten cartridges?”

Need ? Why do they keep framing the question as a discussion of "need"? It's not about hunting or target practice.

It is a right. "right of the people to keep and bear arms."
That would include the barrel, the trigger, the bullets, the magazines, etc. I don't see any limitations in the constitution.
The government has slowly been making "sensible" limitations to erode the clear language of the constitution in violation of their limited authority.

4 posted on 12/30/2012 7:55:32 AM PST by oldbrowser (They are marxists, don't call them democrats)
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To: marktwain

Nothing against semi-autos, I have six of ‘em in various calibers, but I prefer my .38 revolvers for protection. They don’t jam or break. Had a hammer spring break on one of my .380’s, that I conceal carry, and it’s a helpless feeling when nothing happens when you pull the trigger.


5 posted on 12/30/2012 7:56:09 AM PST by Bushbacker1 (I miss President Bush! (Oathkeeper))
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To: Bushbacker1
I was in South LA for the Rodney King riots. Local TV helicopters showed random cars being shot at and white and asian passengers pulled out and beaten. Police were huddled around the police facilities, protecting themselves.

That experience convinced me of the need to protect oneself. That said, I too prefer a revolver. Autos look sexy, but I never felt that I could count on them, including my M-16 from 45 years ago.

6 posted on 12/30/2012 8:02:58 AM PST by Makana
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To: marktwain

The question should be framed thusly as How many tyrants or criminals who pose an imminent threat to life or liberty should I be able to shoot without relading and/or how rapidly?

I am a big believer in firepower. I have seen it work!!!


7 posted on 12/30/2012 8:05:27 AM PST by DMZFrank
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To: marktwain

I am forsaking the usage of “assault” rifle to what I prefer to appropriately call a larger magazine fed .308 to “battle” rifle. The M1 Garand, the M14/M1A are battle rifles.


8 posted on 12/30/2012 8:22:13 AM PST by Eye of Unk (A Civil Cold War in America is here, its already been declared.)
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To: marktwain

I wonder if taping two 15rd magazines together constitute a high capacity magazine? My dad has an M1 carbine with eight 15rd. mags.


9 posted on 12/30/2012 8:26:56 AM PST by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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To: marktwain
For one thing, defensive firearms are meant to be “equalizers,” force multipliers that can allow one good person to defend against multiple evil people.

It should be pointed out that there is no inherent moral value to the hardware.

They are indeed force multipliers, and as such they operate every bit as efficiently to allow one evil person to kill multiple good people quickly.

So if good people are going to have access to such force multipliers, we must accept that so will some evil people.

Had an interesting discussion with a psychologist I was working for the other day. Asked him if there was any reliable way in prospect to use mental health screening to prevent such atrocities. He said no, that any program that would have any effect at all would require locking up hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of people because they - might - be dangerous at some future point.

He also said that living with such atrocities is part of the price we pay for living in a free society.

10 posted on 12/30/2012 8:31:02 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: SkyDancer

I loved the scene from “Salt” where Angelina uses an assault rifle with a four mag attachment, four mags mounted side by side. I have seen various versions of dual mags side by side and or opposed.


11 posted on 12/30/2012 8:31:21 AM PST by Eye of Unk (A Civil Cold War in America is here, its already been declared.)
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To: SkyDancer

One of my friends was a Ranger in Korean War combat. He carried a Thompson, and said it was SOP to have two magazines taped together at the base, for quick change wearing gloves.


12 posted on 12/30/2012 8:34:03 AM PST by 19th LA Inf
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To: GreenAccord
The cops are the experts on the current criminal trends. If they have determined that a “high capacity” semiautomatic pistol and a .223 semiautomatic rifle with 30-round magazines are the best firearms for them to use to protect people like me and my family, they are obviously the best things for us to use to protect ourselves and our families.

This is how I look at it. I don't care whether the criminal got his arsenal legally or illegally. He has it and I refuse to disarm unilaterally.

13 posted on 12/30/2012 8:43:04 AM PST by Starstruck (Washinton is presently building a diving board on the fiscal cliff)
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To: marktwain

Massad Ayoob hits another bulls eye.


14 posted on 12/30/2012 8:45:24 AM PST by Repeal The 17th (We have met the enemy and he is us.)
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To: Eye of Unk

Every firearm is an assault weapon.


15 posted on 12/30/2012 8:48:49 AM PST by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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To: Iron Munro

Great graphic. Thanks.


16 posted on 12/30/2012 8:50:38 AM PST by EternalVigilance (Ban liberalism, not liberty.)
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To: Makana

In the next LA riot there will be many a hubby who will run to the closet to get his firearm only to find that the wifey has turned it in to the LA police for a gift card.


17 posted on 12/30/2012 8:53:45 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (REOPEN THE CLOSED MENTAL INSTITUTIONS! Damn the ACLU!)
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To: Eye of Unk

Just talked to pops. He’s going to do that. Just wondering what’s the best tape to use. Surgical tape will dry out over time as will duct-tape. I’m thinking electricians tape???


18 posted on 12/30/2012 8:53:45 AM PST by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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To: Eye of Unk

Just talked to pops. He’s going to do that. Just wondering what’s the best tape to use. Surgical tape will dry out over time as will duct-tape. I’m thinking electricians tape??? Secondly which would be the best way to tape the second mag. for quick change, like which way should the bullets face in the second one.


19 posted on 12/30/2012 8:54:52 AM PST by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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To: Makana

>>> That said, I too prefer a revolver.

I own a Glock 9mm and am thinking of acquiring a “hammerless” 38 revolver.

I’ve been looking at the Ruger. Would you recommend it?


20 posted on 12/30/2012 9:21:25 AM PST by GoodDay
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To: oldbrowser
Need ? Why do they keep framing the question as a discussion of "need"?

Right! As the man in the link said, it's called the Bill of Rights, not the Bill of Needs.

21 posted on 12/30/2012 9:32:28 AM PST by LibWhacker
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To: SkyDancer; All

I never liked the idea of taping magazines together. If you are going to the trouble, buy a magazine pouch that you can attack to the stock of the carbine. Cheaper and more effective IMHO. Most carbine mag pouches hold two magazines.

The carbine will handle better as well. There are some special clamps to hold a couple of mags together.


22 posted on 12/30/2012 10:01:42 AM PST by marktwain
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To: Iron Munro
The communist took over this country four years ago,...without firing a shot. Only one person in America vetted Obama and revealed him to be a complete fraud,....Jack Cashill, Ph.D. So you won't be needing any weapons of any kind. The battle is over. It was over four years ago when America crumbled in the face of a mulatto marxist fraud.

There will never be any organized revolt against the government since it isn't the government any more, it's a leftist dictatorship. You can't overthrow it. The Republic is now history.

There may be a few guys who will open fire on the ATF when they start going door to door to gather your guns, but over all you will simply surrender them like you did America. You going to trade in your family, your job, your kids to shoot a couple of cops or ATF??? Won't happen. Within four years if he wants it Obama will have confiscated every gun in America. The rest of you will be imprisoned or shot down like dogs.

We could have stopped him in 2007 but we didn't. As John McLame said after running the worst campaign in history, "I hope President Obama succeeds!" And here we are!

23 posted on 12/30/2012 10:04:05 AM PST by Doc Savage ("I've shot people I like a lot more,...for a lot less!" Raylan Givins)
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To: GoodDay

Don’t mean to intrude on your question, but Ruger LCR is great for concealed carry. Outstanding grip, i have it in .357 which is a few oz heavier but makes .38 +p rounds more comfortable. I don’t find .357 intolerable which is amazing in such a small firearm...

A little larger SP101 can also be a good choice, and GP101 is a good house gun. I have gravitated back to revolvers as well the last couple years... There have been many instances where they have been loaded and left in a bed stand drawer by owner, years later used and it still fires, not sure any/many semis would do the same...

If nothing else, makes a good backup to a large cap semi.


24 posted on 12/30/2012 10:37:49 AM PST by Max_850
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To: Max_850

>>>Don’t mean to intrude on your question, but Ruger LCR is great for concealed carry.

It’s no intrusion. I appreciate the information and advice. Many thanks!


25 posted on 12/30/2012 10:57:50 AM PST by GoodDay
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To: oldbrowser

[[ “Why do ordinary law-abiding people need those semiautomatic firearms with magazines that can hold more than ten cartridges?”

Need ? Why do they keep framing the question as a discussion of “need”? It’s not about hunting or target practice. ]]

Excerpt from “Unintended Consequences” by John Ross, p. 151:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“Dad, while you were taking pictures after we had lunch, Mr. Mann was telling me about what happened to him during the war.” Henry and his father were down in the workshop, where Henry was cleaning his guns. Walter Bowman looked up at his son.

“Hm.” Walter had never heard of Irwin Mann talking about that part of his past.

“He was telling me about how the police came and took him and his wife away, and he never saw her or any of his family again. He said that Hitler killed six million Jews like him, and would have killed all of them if the Americans hadn’t fought against the Germans and beat them.”

“That’s probably true.”

“He talked about how none of them had any way to fight back. He said FIRST THE POLICE TOOK AWAY THE GUNS THAT WERE LIKE THE ONES THE SOLDIERS USED, then they took away all their guns. He said he hoped I was always a good shot with as many kinds of guns as possible, in case the same thing ever happened here.” Henry looked very upset. “Dad, I love shooting, but I don’t want to kill anyone. Could something like what happened in Germany ever happen here?” he asked.

Walter Bowman, the history teacher, looked his son in the eye. Want to take this question for me, Uncle Cam? he said silently. Finally he answered.

“It probably won’t happen here,” he said, and mentally added the word again. “I certainly pray that it doesn’t. We have a nation with the kind of freedoms that people in most other countries can only dream of. But to answer your question accurately, yes, it could happen here.” And it killed your uncle.

“There are always men who want more and more power, and history has shown us that these kind of men will take all they can from the people they control. Sometimes they are finally stopped when the people fight back. Sometimes the people don’t fight back, and they slowly lose their freedoms until it’s too late.”

(emphasis added by me)


26 posted on 12/30/2012 12:13:16 PM PST by Road Glide
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To: GoodDay

Ruger LCR.


27 posted on 12/30/2012 12:40:04 PM PST by ought-six ( Multiculturalism is national suicide, and political correctness is the cyanide capsule.)
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To: SkyDancer

Forget taping mags together. That’s Hollywood stuff.


28 posted on 12/30/2012 12:47:49 PM PST by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: Road Glide
“’Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.”—Gandhi
29 posted on 12/30/2012 1:25:52 PM PST by oldbrowser (They are marxists, don't call them democrats)
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To: marktwain

I don’t “need” anything! Oh, and I’m tired of being “good” too. DON’T TREAD! I’M EFFIN SERIOUS!


30 posted on 12/30/2012 1:46:32 PM PST by The Toll
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To: smokingfrog

I thought I remembered seeing in some WWII Pacific jungle fighting where the Marines who had M1’s taped their mags. Or was it Korea.


31 posted on 12/30/2012 2:13:09 PM PST by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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To: SkyDancer

The M1 Garand is a clip fed rifle that loads from the top of its reciever and into its internal magazine via an 8 round en bloc clip. If you had 2 or more CLIPS taped together you would have to seperate them (and likely remove the tape) so as to allow the SINGLE CLIP to be placed onto the magazine follower and to prevent the tape from creating an obstruction to inserting it into the reciever.


32 posted on 12/30/2012 7:00:05 PM PST by DMZFrank
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To: Bushbacker1

Your revolvers don’t have hammer springs?


33 posted on 12/30/2012 7:01:46 PM PST by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias... "Barack": Allah's current ally...)
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To: Bushbacker1

Your revolvers don’t have hammer springs?


34 posted on 12/30/2012 7:02:09 PM PST by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias... "Barack": Allah's current ally...)
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To: SkyDancer

You may have seen taped magazines on M-1 carbines, but this was discouraged unless IMMEDIATE use was forseen as in a CQB situation, as the open magazine lips invited debris and dirt that could result in a failure to feed stoppage, with potentially fatal results


35 posted on 12/30/2012 7:04:02 PM PST by DMZFrank
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To: Max_850
"I don’t find .357 intolerable which is amazing in such a small firearm..."

I've found that recoil that is objectionable in practice is hardly noticeable when any pressure to perform is on, (competition, qualification, hunting, danger).

I've been "jumped" by several rattlesnakes -- and I don't remember any recoil... '-)

36 posted on 12/30/2012 7:33:15 PM PST by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias... "Barack": Allah's current ally...)
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To: SkyDancer

The fact that the simplified Thompsons could not be used with the drum magazine did not have a serious impact on effectiveness, though the drum was popular with some users. The following passage regarding the drum magazine  appears in the Rosenquist and Buerlein book Our Kind of War. “On an amphibious assault, Raiders liked to land with a 50-round drum locked into the weapon. When that was emptied, it was simply discarded and immediately replaced by a 20-round box magazine.”

The 50-round drum was criticized by many as being too awkward, heavy and prone to rattle—all obviously undesirable traits in combat—and the drum was dropped from widespread use fairly early in the war.

To compensate for the loss of the drum’s firepower, a 30-round magazine (essentially a lengthened version of the 20-round magazine) was adopted, and it could be used with all models of Thompsons in service including the M1928A1. Some soldiers taped two or three magazines together in an attempt to make reloading faster, but the real value of this can be debated.

http://www.americanrifleman.org/m-articlepage.aspx?id=3141&cid=1


37 posted on 12/30/2012 8:23:56 PM PST by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: SkyDancer

How about something like this?

http://www.gunaccessories.com/Magazines/AR15_M16/AR-15_M16.asp#7


38 posted on 12/30/2012 8:40:48 PM PST by William Tell
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To: DMZFrank

Sorry, I was talking about the M1 .30cal carbine. Several people suggested it was not a good idea to tape mag’s together one reason being that the one on the bottom would be exposed to all sorts of dirt and stuff and possible jamming.


39 posted on 12/30/2012 8:46:36 PM PST by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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To: smokingfrog

I read where a fully loaded drum plus gun weighed almost 50 pounds or close to it.


40 posted on 12/30/2012 8:47:57 PM PST by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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To: William Tell

Unfortunately it wouldn’t work on an M1 carbine. I’ll bet though a machinist could weld two 15 rd. mags together though it’d be too long I think. Best way I guess is to have the spares in some sort of belt.


41 posted on 12/30/2012 8:51:12 PM PST by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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To: SkyDancer

Well, how about this one, then?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/634182/john-masen-black-warrior-magazine-coupler-m1-carbine

(What an incredible tool is the Internet!)


42 posted on 12/30/2012 9:23:57 PM PST by William Tell
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To: William Tell

Thanks. Someone wrote a review of it and only gave it one star. Said was poor fit and that tape was better. I did see however 15rd. magazines for $12.95 which was better than CheaperThanDirt who wants 19.95. Used to be $7 before Sandy Hook shooting.


43 posted on 12/31/2012 7:50:19 AM PST by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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