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Mexican Narcoterrorist Region May Abandon Catholicism for Islam
FrontPageMag.com ^ | December 29, 2012 | Daniel Greenfield

Posted on 12/31/2012 4:02:57 PM PST by DogByte6RER

Chiapas Islamo-terrorists

Mexican Narcoterrorist Region May Abandon Catholicism for Islam

It would seem as if Bishop Ruiz’s brand of Liberation Theology has had the same effect on Chiapas as on Europe. Chiapas is poor, but it’s now also appearing to trend Islamic as any region under the influence of the left eventually does. When you kill the local religion and replace it with social justice, foreign religions eventually take its place.

In the mid-1990s, a leftist resistance group which calls itself The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (EZLN) made Chiapas its home. Its attempts to fight the Mexican Army repeatedly failed, but the Zapatistas are still very active in the district’s rural areas. Chiapas is considered a dangerous place, where every home has an arms arsenal of its own; and like many other places in Mexico, Chiapas’ streets have become the battlefield where the government and local drug lords wrestle for dominance.

Chiapas, however, harbors an even more sinister secret: It is also a hub of radical Islamist activity.

Catholic Mexico is in the midst of a crisis of faith. According to a local businessman, who asked to remain anonymous, it is widely believed that within a decade, Chiapas will be the first federal state in Mexico to turn its back on the Church.

“The Muslim missionaries are very active there,” he said. “It’s hard to know exactly how many people have converted to Islam over the past few years.”

In December 2011, the US authorities released an indictment filed against Lebanese drug lord Ayman Juma, which exposed Hezbollah’s involvement with the Los Zetas drug cartel. According to the US Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA), Los Zetas is the most technologically advanced and most dangerous cartel operating in Mexico.

Juma was indicted in absentia for smuggling 85 tons of cocaine into the US and for laundering $850 million for Los Zetas. He was also accused of serving as a go-between for the Mexican crime syndicate and the Shiite terror group.

According to US officials, for a modest 8%-14% commission, Juma’s money laundering process would take about a week. The operation involved bank accounts in dozens of countries, making it virtually impossible to track the dirty money.

US intelligence concluded that Hezbollah has established sleeper cells, intelligence infrastructure and training bases in Mexico and other South American countries. The Shiite group is also helping the drug lords build smuggling tunnels under the US-Mexico border and satellite images show that they are nearly identical to the maze of tunnels running under the Gaza-Egypt border.

Hezbollah is also training the cartels’ operatives in the dubious art of explosives, helping drug lords improve their bomb-making skills.

Now why would they need to learn how to make better bombs?


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; Mexico; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: aliens; catholicism; chiapas; hezbollah; immigration; islam; islamofascism; liberationtheology; loszetas; mexicanmuslims; mexico; muhammadsminions; muslims; narcoterrorism; sleepercells; wot; zapatista
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Wolverines!

D@mn ... Hezbollah recruiting and expanding into Mexico too?!? This reads like the plot from "Red Dawn" except the commies are now Islamofascists.

1 posted on 12/31/2012 4:03:10 PM PST by DogByte6RER
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For more reference ...

Hezbollah’s cocaine Jihad

- Faced with dwindling Iranian funding, Shiite terror group partners with Mexican drug cartels; uses millions of dollars in drug money to support weapon acquisition habit

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4325850,00.html


2 posted on 12/31/2012 4:05:03 PM PST by DogByte6RER ("Loose lips sink ships")
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To: DogByte6RER; HerrBlucher; mgist; raptor22; victim soul; Isabel2010; Smokin' Joe; Michigander222; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

3 posted on 12/31/2012 4:07:43 PM PST by narses
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To: DogByte6RER; HerrBlucher; mgist; raptor22; victim soul; Isabel2010; Smokin' Joe; Michigander222; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

4 posted on 12/31/2012 4:08:47 PM PST by narses
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To: DogByte6RER

How does one say “Derka Derka Mohamed Jihad” in espanol?


5 posted on 12/31/2012 4:19:18 PM PST by GraceG
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To: DogByte6RER

So, first they abandoned Catholicism for protestantism and now abandoning protestantism for Islam? Color me skeptical. Chiapas has population of five million — maybe a few thousand Muslims out of that? They’ve got a long way to go to unseat the Christians and Christian/Indian-religion hybrids. These people are not secular unlike Europeans.


6 posted on 12/31/2012 4:19:41 PM PST by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not NurtureĀ™)
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To: DogByte6RER

How does one say “Derka Derka Mohamed Jihad” in espanol?


7 posted on 12/31/2012 4:20:33 PM PST by GraceG
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To: narses
"It would seem as if Bishop Ruiz’s brand of Liberation Theology has had the same effect on Chiapas as on Europe."

There's something else you might want to be concerned with.

8 posted on 12/31/2012 4:21:01 PM PST by norton
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To: DogByte6RER

How does one say “Derka Derka Mohamed Jihad” in espanol?


9 posted on 12/31/2012 4:21:39 PM PST by GraceG
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To: DogByte6RER

How does one say “Derka Derka Mohamed Jihad” in espanol?


10 posted on 12/31/2012 4:22:52 PM PST by GraceG
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To: DogByte6RER

How does one say “Derka Derka Mohamed Jihad” in espanol?


11 posted on 12/31/2012 4:23:43 PM PST by GraceG
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To: DogByte6RER

> Mexican Narcoterrorist Region May Abandon Catholicism for Islam

That’s one way to get Hussein to support them.


12 posted on 12/31/2012 4:33:11 PM PST by Jyotishi (Seeking the truth, a fact at a time.)
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To: DogByte6RER

Before it can be anything, the drug cartels and Islamafacists are going to go to war with each other.


13 posted on 12/31/2012 4:34:20 PM PST by Jonty30 (What Islam and secularism have in common is that they are both death cults.)
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To: DogByte6RER

Big big BIG trouble for USA if Arab terrorists take over any part of Mexico!
BIG trouble for the Big Satan!

but the old mass media is almost ignoring this problem....


14 posted on 12/31/2012 4:40:53 PM PST by faithhopecharity
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To: DogByte6RER
Drugs dealers joining a cult which endorses the abuse and rape of women and children and the killing of infidels?

Who would have thought?

The US Socialistas will shrug their shoulders, ask "Which way is east?" and convert rather than put up a fight.

15 posted on 12/31/2012 4:48:58 PM PST by MrBambaLaMamba (This Message Contains Privileged Attorney-Client Communications)
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To: DogByte6RER

If only drugs were legalized........


16 posted on 12/31/2012 4:51:17 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: DogByte6RER

Ahhh! Still more evidence of the convergence between The Left, the Muzzies and the Globalist Fascists.

They are all 3 aligning against the Christians, Jews and some others fo faith.

God help the U.S., Israel and Texas. God Bless your family and mine.


17 posted on 12/31/2012 4:58:24 PM PST by Texas Fossil
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To: steve86
So, first they abandoned Catholicism for protestantism and now abandoning protestantism for Islam? Color me skeptical. Chiapas has population of five million — maybe a few thousand Muslims out of that? They’ve got a long way to go to unseat the Christians and Christian/Indian-religion hybrids. These people are not secular unlike Europeans.

You forgot the first step, where they were coerced into Catholicism by conquering armies of frenchmen and spaniards.

18 posted on 12/31/2012 5:13:02 PM PST by elkfersupper ( Member of the Original Defiant Class)
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To: elkfersupper

I thought that was implied by the inclusion of the religion-hybrid phrase.


19 posted on 12/31/2012 5:17:06 PM PST by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not NurtureĀ™)
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To: steve86
So, first they abandoned Catholicism for protestantism and now abandoning protestantism for Islam?

Really, you think it is the same people?

Chiapas is still 67% Catholic, with many moving to Protestantism, and the article that this article links to, says that there are only 4,000 Muslims in all of Mexico.

The 'Frontpage' article cut off the second sentence from the Isreali source they were using, """The Muslim missionaries are very active there," he said. "It's hard to know exactly how many people have converted to Islam over the past few years." Official data suggests that Mexico is home to some 4,000 Muslims – a fraction in a country whose population numbers 115 million.""

20 posted on 12/31/2012 5:22:16 PM PST by ansel12
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To: GraceG

“Long ago a young man sits and plays his waiting game
But things are not the same it seems as in such tender dreams
Slowly passing sailing ships and Sunday afternoon
Like people on the moon I see are things not meant to be
Where do those golden rainbows end?
Why is this song so sad?
Dreaming the dreams I’ve dreamed my FRiend
Loving the love I love
To derka derka are just some words I’ve heard when things are being said”
James `Mohammed’ Taylor


21 posted on 12/31/2012 5:23:24 PM PST by tumblindice (America's founding fathers: All armed conservatives.)
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To: steve86
wherever men are given religeous "rights" to kill, beat, rape, enslave women in general, half the population, its an easy sell....

just like Muslims...just like the beginnings of Mormonism.....

I expect the same from many American men...give them a chance to hold women as pure property withouts rights, you have islam....

wherever and whenever women are enslaved, its back to the stone age for that society....

glad I'll be dead by the time it hits this country really hard....30-40 yrs....but my poor children and grandchildren.....

Lord....save us....

22 posted on 12/31/2012 5:32:28 PM PST by cherry
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To: DogByte6RER

Very, very unlikely. Historically, many conversions have had to do with the perceived strength, influence and territorial aggressiveness of the adherents of religion in question. Islam fails on all three counts. What’s worse, its practices conflict with traditional Latin American customs, as well and indigenous Indian ones.


23 posted on 12/31/2012 5:35:45 PM PST by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: GraceG
A new word may be entering the Mexican vocabulary: yihad (jihad).
24 posted on 12/31/2012 5:48:32 PM PST by Fiji Hill (Io Triumphe!)
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To: DogByte6RER

They’re not really very Christian now, are they?


25 posted on 12/31/2012 7:22:56 PM PST by stuartcr ("Everything happens as God wants it to, otherwise, things would be different.")
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To: DogByte6RER

They’re not really very Christian now, are they?


26 posted on 12/31/2012 7:23:13 PM PST by stuartcr ("Everything happens as God wants it to, otherwise, things would be different.")
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To: DogByte6RER; Travis McGee

would not surprise me a bit


27 posted on 12/31/2012 7:32:35 PM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: elkfersupper
As I understand it (and I'm no scholar), the invading army of ther Spanish conquistadores did have a big effect in suppressing the Aztec religion and pulling down its bloody sanctuaries and its walls of skulls; but they had very little effect in converting Aztecs to Catholicism, which is quite a different proposition.

The armies as such had very little interest in that, and the Aztecs even less.

By 1531, after several decades of Spanish domination there were very few -- perhaps a hundred or less -- indigenous Catholic converts in Mexico. But by 20 years after that, they numbered in the millions.

What made the difference? Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe.

28 posted on 12/31/2012 7:34:31 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (De veras.)
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To: DogByte6RER
Well, that’s not a big jump I suppose after the Catholic Church declared they serve the same God.

CCC841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

29 posted on 12/31/2012 8:03:41 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Mrs. Don-o; elkfersupper

In the book ‘The Broken Spears: The Aztec Account of the Conquest of Mexico’, it is described that the Aztec leaders of many areas were insisting? (pleading?) to be converted to Christianity, and that Cortez had to insist/explain, that they learn something about what they were doing first, that they needed to understand what accepting Christ meant.


30 posted on 12/31/2012 8:40:44 PM PST by ansel12
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To: DogByte6RER

Great, just open those borders.


31 posted on 12/31/2012 9:48:10 PM PST by dervish (either the vote was corrupt or the electorate is)
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To: DogByte6RER

ABANDON definition: force the public into Islam through terror tactics, murder, rape and abuse. There I fixed it!


32 posted on 01/01/2013 5:08:02 AM PST by ronnie raygun (Being Breitbart)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“What made the difference? Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe.”

Someone should have told the Bishop of Mexico. He didn’t seem to have heard anything about Juan Diego, the apparition, or any miraculous mass conversion of the Indians. In fact, it wasn’t until over a hundred years later that we have any evidence of that story.


33 posted on 01/01/2013 8:56:36 AM PST by Boogieman
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To: ansel12

Thanks for this recommendation. I went over to amazon.com and found a paperback edition for $0.01 + $3.99 postage/handling, and I’m going to read it with interest.


34 posted on 01/01/2013 9:02:15 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (De veras.)
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To: don-o
My own evaluation (this is not doctrine, but just one speculation out of Mrs. Don-o's Big Bag 'o' Notions) is that three significant religious movements sprang from post-Catholic roots: Islam (6th century), Protestantism (16th century) and Mormonism (19th century).

(I am not discussing Orthodoxy here, because we Catholics do not regard the Orthodox as heretical: Catholics and Orthodox share virtually identical doctrines, Scriptures, Sacraments, moral law, etc.)

Of the three, Protestantism is (I would say) most similar to Catholicism because Protestants generally still retain a belief in One God who is Creator of heaven and earth; a correct belief in the Trinity; a Nicene Christology; and most of the canon of Scriptures handed down via the Catholic/Orthodox Church. Some Protestants have retained many of the historic doctrines and practices of the first 1500 years of historic Christianity.

Islam (I would say) comes in 2nd, because, as Monotheists, they believe in a single God who is Creator of all that exists, and who is the judge of the living and the dead; however their understanding of Christ is totally screwed-up, they had no belief in the Holy Spirit, and their additional pseudo-scriptures (Quran and Hadiths) are false and quite possibly demonic.

Mormonism (I would say) comes in last, because it involves (like Islam) a false pseudo-Scripture based on either deliberate fraud or demonic influence; and --- even more disturbing --- does not acknowledge one Creator and Judge of all, but rather myriads of gods and goddesses.

This is not a judgment of the moral fitness of Protestants, Muslims, or Mormons (a judgment no one can make but God alone); it is just an overview of the three creedal movements which originally sprang from historically Judeo-Christian doctrinal roots.

35 posted on 01/01/2013 9:48:10 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (De veras.)
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To: Boogieman

Huei Tlamahuiçoltica, recounted in a phenomenally reliable oral tradition and then committed to writing in Nahautl in ca. 1570, within the same generation as the apparitions themselves.

36 posted on 01/01/2013 9:59:17 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (De veras.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“The work was initially published under the auspices of Dr. Pedro de Barrientos Lomelín, vicar general of the Mexican diocese, at the press of Juan Ruiz in 1649.”


37 posted on 01/01/2013 10:11:35 AM PST by Boogieman
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Also, if the tradition was so “phenomenally reliable”, why is the story so inaccurate? For example, it says that in 1531 Juan Diego is running around having dealings with Bishop Zumarraga, who wasn’t even in Mexico in 1531. It seems to me, even if they were transmitting the story faithfully until it was published, at best, they were transmitting a demonstrably unreliable account.


38 posted on 01/01/2013 11:37:02 AM PST by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman
Check your sources.

With the title of Protector of the Indians and bishop-elect (before formal consecration), Juan de Zumárraga arrived in Mexico on December 6, 1528. He is listed in the ecclesiatical chronicles as Archbishop of Mexico 1528-1548.

A very old and battered partial (16 page) Nahautl manuscript copy of the Nican Mopohua, dating c. 1556, can be found at the Public Library of New York.

The Nahuatl document I mentioned before, the Inin huey tlamahuiçoltzin, is kept at The National Library of México.

39 posted on 01/01/2013 11:56:28 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (What does the Lord require of you but to act justly, to love tenderly, to walk humbly with your God.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Yes, I’m sorry, I was incorrect, he was in Mexico earlier, before he went back to Spain, so he could have been around in 1531, I suppose, granting audiences to Aztec peasants. If so, it’s strange that he never seemed to mention this most dramatic event in any of his writings. There are other problems in the account, though, that I find hard to dismiss. For example, claiming the image is miraculous, when it’s clearly a fairly crude painting, is a rather large one.

As for the manuscript, it’s dated to 1556, but that’s just an estimate. We have no date in the manuscript, no author, and no provenance, so it’s an educated guess that may be accurate, or not. We do know for certain that a cult of Guadalupe was mentioned in 1556, by Bustamante, who denounced it as falsely attributing a painting of Mary made by an Indian as a miraculous relic. That sure sounds familiar. I wouldn’t be surprised if that cult had written down its fantasy in manuscript form at some point, and that is what became the basis for the 1649 account.


40 posted on 01/01/2013 12:59:54 PM PST by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman
Actually, your account suggests why Zummaraga didn't go seeking publicity, especially in Spain, for the miraculous image. Spain was in the middle of the Inquisition, and there were lots of zealous (not to say paranoid) people running around, red-hot and ready to zot any morisco, converso, proto-Protestant or heretic who stuck his head up and made any sort of claims about special revelations.

Particularly when the person who did so, was a Nahuatl-speaking Aztec who was seeing visions on the Hill of Tepeyac, formerly sacred to the goddess Tonantzin.

These were the guys who twice imprisoned St. Ignatius of Loyola, the founder of the Jesuits, fer Chrissake (so to speak!)

Nope, Zumarraga was not going to be trumpeting that perplexing Indio business to the gents over at the Tribunal del Santo Oficio de la Inquisición.

But he did enjoy the most amazing increase of new converts since Pentecost AD 33. According to Fray Toribio de Benavente Motolinia, the number of baptized Indians in Mexico in 1536 was five million.

I will permit myself a little childish punctuation: !!!!!

Happy New Year, Boogieman.

41 posted on 01/01/2013 1:55:59 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("He Whom the whole world cannot contain, was enclosed within thy womb, O Virgin, and became Man.")
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To: Liz; AuntB; Diogenesis

More evidence of the coming storm.


42 posted on 01/01/2013 2:03:36 PM PST by TADSLOS (I took extra credit at the School of Hard Knocks)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“Spain was in the middle of the Inquisition, and there were lots of zealous (not to say paranoid) people running around, red-hot and ready to zot any morisco, converso, proto-Protestant or heretic who stuck his head up and made any sort of claims about special revelations.”

So, he didn’t say anything about this miracle, because the Catholic authorities would have denounced it? If that’s true, then why wouldn’t that be evidence, to a Catholic, that it was a false miracle? Aren’t you supposed to believe that the Catholic Church is divinely guided so as to judge miracles correctly? If it was a true miracle, there should have been no fear that they would denounce it, right?

It just seems all too convenient. After all, if we find a long-lost letter from the Bishop in some archive talking about the miracle, dated 1531, then that would no doubt be cited as evidence towards its legitimacy. However, you’re basically saying the absence of such documentation should also be cited as evidence towards its legitimacy, and I suppose, by extension, even if we found a letter from him disparaging the story, that same argument could be applied.

“But he did enjoy the most amazing increase of new converts since Pentecost AD 33. According to Fray Toribio de Benavente Motolinia, the number of baptized Indians in Mexico in 1536 was five million.”

Sure, that is amazing, but as someone else upthread stated that they were trying to convert earlier, and Cortes had to turn them away, it may have had nothing to do with the cult of Guadalupe. If I were an Aztec, and I just saw my seemingly invincible empire leveled by a couple boatloads of foreigners, I think I would be disillusioned with my gods and looking for a new religion too.

If the cult was responsible, then it could be just as reasonably seen as a syncretist marketing gimmick dreamed up to make Catholicism more palatable to the natives, or some syncretism that the natives dreamed up themselves, like we see with Santeria or Santa Muerte. All of those possibilities seem more likely to me than the miracle narrative, which asks me to believe that an ordinary looking painting is neither ordinary, nor a painting.

Oh well, I suppose we’ll just dance in circles on this one. I don’t care if anyone wants to believe in the whole miracle story, even if I think it’s hogwash. I just don’t think that we should accept that there’s enough evidence to put that legend in the history books as the certain cause of the conversion of Mexico. It’s good propaganda, but I doubt it’s good history.

Happy New Year to you too, Mrs. Don-o!


43 posted on 01/01/2013 2:40:10 PM PST by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman
"So... aren’t you supposed to believe that the Catholic Church is divinely guided so as to judge miracles correctly? If it was a true miracle, there should have been no fear that they would denounce it, right?"

Thanks for a good laugh!

First of all, there is nothing in Catholic doctrine which requires me to believe in the Guadalupe apparitions or in any other apparitions, since these are classified as "private revelations" and therefore are not a matter of doctrine or dogma. The most that the relevant authority (i.e. the bishop) can do would be to (1) investigate to see whether there is a non-supernatural explanation for the apparition (is the "visionary" making an honest mistake based on some ambiguous visual or auditory phenomenon? Drunk? On drugs? Hallucinating? A charlatan, or the victim of one?)

IF those can be ruled out, then the next question is: is there anything in the purported revelation contrary to Catholic faith or morals?

Very often an investigation must simply be called inconclusive, since there is not good enough evidence to make a fair determination. Moreover the Church is usually in no hurry to endorse an alleged miracle. For instance, the purported visions which began in 1981 in Medjugorje, a village in Bosnia-Herzegovina, are still under investigation, there is hearty debate about them, and neither a ruling of "definitely supernatural" or "definitely non-supernatural" has been forthcoming.

Secondly, there is plenty of room for Church authorities to be wrong. Even the Pope may be in error in his opinions: Papal infallibility does not extend to his views on politics, iconography, sports or weather, nor (God knows!) to Vatican diplomacy.

Any reasonably well-educated Catholic high school student should know that.

Thirdly, I am not citing anything as proof-positive of the Guadalupe apparitions. I am merely offering evidence, and reasonable inferences from evidence. I can serenely note counter-evidence, weigh it, and accept it if well-founded.

Now, to the topic at hand: the existence of a letter in some long-forgotten archive, reporting on the Guadalupe apparitions in 1531, would be a valuable piece of historic evidence. However, the lack of such a letter does not prove the falsity of the apparitions. As I understand it, the Nican Mopohua, written in classical Nahautl in 1556, is--- by way of comparison --- about as authentic as a birth certificate would be: it is an official document, and an early one. So it counts, not as proof, but as significant evidence.

"Sure, that [5,000,000 conversions in 5 years] is amazing, but as someone else upthread stated that they were trying to convert earlier, and Cortes had to turn them away, it may have had nothing to do with the cult of Guadalupe. If I were an Aztec, and I just saw my seemingly invincible empire leveled by a couple boatloads of foreigners, I think I would be disillusioned with my gods and looking for a new religion too".

Granted. I’m sure there were numerous and various factors for conversions in general, syncretism being part of the mix. But there isn’t any other explanation--- other than the Guadalupe phenomenon --- for 5 million conversions between 1531 and 1536. I am open to competing hypotheses, but they'd better be good.

It does no good to say this was all a 16th century Catholic proselytizing hoax, either, since it was controversial from the very beginning, denounced by some Franciscans for being too closely associated with Tonantzin, and downplayed by the Church for many, many years. If it was a symbol of Spanish hegemony, it was not a very good one, since Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla initiated the bid for Mexican independence with his Grito de Dolores, with the cry "Death to the Spaniards and long live the Virgin of Guadalupe!"

Until the discovery of the deer-skin codex in 1995, there were serious doubts, freely voiced within the Church, about the existence of Juan Diego, the man who received the image to begin with. This recently found manuscript (called the Codex Escalada) provided the documentation needed for the canonization Saint Juan Diego Cuauhtlatoatzin, which only happened in 2002 (471 years after the apparitions.). Not exactly a full-speed-ahead 16th century propaganda campaign.

Something happened between 1531 and 1536. Any other hypotheses? Something in the chocolate?

Happy New Year and a Mexican tequila chocolate to you, Boogieman!

FYI:

1 1/2 ounces tequila
1 ounce coffee liqueur
1/8 teaspoon vanilla
1/8 teaspoon cinnamon
1/2 cup coffee ice cream
Stir with a cinnamon stick!

44 posted on 01/01/2013 6:20:14 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("He Whom the whole world cannot contain, was enclosed within thy womb, O Virgin, and became Man.")
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Of course I am not saying that everybody in the Catholic clergy claims infallibility on all matters, or anything like that. However, the Catholic church as a body does claim divine authority to judge these matters, so why should they be rejecting false miracles if that authority is factual? They are certain enough of this authority when they pronounce someone a Saint, giving their believers the go ahead to communicate with them through prayer. That’s pretty confident, I would say, otherwise they could possibly be encouraging spiritism or divination, if their judgement was sometimes incorrect.

Since the process of sainthood is dependent on the process that verifies miracles, the same level of authority must be assumed to be at work there too. Otherwise, it stands to reason, if they are sometimes wrong about the miracles, then they are sometimes wrong about the saints, and therefore dangerously presumptuous in telling people to pray to them. It’s a tricky path to say “we make mistakes”, there are more consequences than just the convenient ones.

“However, the lack of such a letter does not prove the falsity of the apparitions.”

No, it doesn’t, but it also doesn’t mean there’s no letter because the Bishop was afraid of some consequences if people found out what was happening. It’s just a bit odd that a main character in the story, who is, as you pointed out, the one most responsible for verifying these kinds of things, didn’t seem to tell anyone about it. Maybe he did and all the records have been lost, but unless we find something like that, I think it’s an oddity.

“As I understand it, the Nican Mopohua, written in classical Nahautl in 1556, is-— by way of comparison -— about as authentic as a birth certificate would be: it is an official document, and an early one.”

An official document of who? The church, the government, the local priest? They have a pretty good guess as to the author, but I don’t think it’s an official document so much as a tract that someone wrote promoting their story of this apparition. On the other hand, we have a source from at least as early, that is attributable to someone with some position of authority in the church, denouncing spurious claims of a miracle by the peasants that sound just like the Guadalupe cult. Even if that’s just the one man’s opinion, it demonstrates that there wasn’t a general belief, even 25 years later, that this miracle was legitimate and leading some miraculous wave of conversions.

“But there isn’t any other explanation-— other than the Guadalupe phenomenon -— for 5 million conversions between 1531 and 1536. I am open to competing hypotheses, but they’d better be good.”

Of course there are other explanations. First of all 5 million is impressive, but take things in perspective. There were over 5 million people in the capital alone, and Mexico is a large country, so if you were to look at it percentage-wise, it’s not so miraculous. Mass conversions do happen, sometimes at the point of a sword, sometimes from waves of fervor, and often during times of massive social upheaval. How many people were converted to Islam in a few decades? That doesn’t require any miraculous explanation, so why does this?

“It does no good to say this was all a 16th century Catholic proselytizing hoax, either, since it was controversial from the very beginning”

That really doesn’t do much to contradict the hypothesis, since it could have been simply one missionary, or local governor who hatched a plan that unexpectedly caught on. There’s no reason to assume that, if it were a “tall tale” concocted to win converts, that all the authorities in the region would be in on it.

“If it was a symbol of Spanish hegemony, it was not a very good one, since Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla initiated the bid for Mexican independence with his Grito de Dolores, with the cry “Death to the Spaniards and long live the Virgin of Guadalupe!””

The Law of Unintended Consequences can really come back to bite you.

“This recently found manuscript (called the Codex Escalada) provided the documentation needed for the canonization Saint Juan Diego Cuauhtlatoatzin, which only happened in 2002 (471 years after the apparitions.).”

Yes, that was very convenient, that it was discovered just at the time that the very information in the Codex was needed to overcome objections. I guess you could either see that as miraculous itself, or suspicious, depending on your perspective.

“Not exactly a full-speed-ahead 16th century propaganda campaign.”

I don’t think it’s likely there was any official propaganda campaign. If it was a hoax, it was probably like every other hoax, the work of one or a few anonymous individuals who did it for their own reasons. If it’s just a folktale, then those stories just spread organically until someone bothers to write them down and set some version in stone.


45 posted on 01/01/2013 8:07:19 PM PST by Boogieman
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To: TADSLOS; NYer; Salvation; sickoflibs; GOPJ; AuntB; Tennessee Nana; Sun
Perfect timing----Ohaha can install these guys in the WH Office of Special Ops---the one vacated by the neocons.

Ohaha needs lots of strongmen as "enforcers" for the coming resistance when he starts rolling out EO's, rules and regs, laws and so on......to force Christians to act against their faith.

46 posted on 01/02/2013 5:11:12 AM PST by Liz
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To: Mrs. Don-o
What made the difference?

Horny Conquistadores breeding with the natives.

Those are your modern-day Mexicans.

47 posted on 01/02/2013 3:04:31 PM PST by elkfersupper ( Member of the Original Defiant Class)
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To: Boogieman
”..the Catholic church as a body does claim divine authority to judge these matters... otherwise they could possibly be encouraging spiritism or divination, if their judgment was sometimes incorrect..”

This shows some unfamiliarity with the way such judgments are made in the Catholic Church. There is no doctrine which would forbid Catholics from petitioning intercessory prayer from any person whatsoever, saint or sinner, living or dead. I can ask my mother (d.1994) for her prayers. I can ask the Archangel Michael for his prayers. I could ask you for your prayers --- and I don’t even know if you’re a theist. That should be sufficient evidence of our promiscuity as to asking, and offering, intercessory prayer.

(I’m not speaking here about acts of formal recognition, such as their inclusion at the altar in a public liturgy which can only be done after a strict formal investigation and the approval of the bishop.)

BTW, this is not “spiritism”, i.e. the dead communicating with the living, something which we are strictly not to solicit.

”Since the process of sainthood is dependent on the process that verifies miracles, the same level of authority must be assumed to be at work there too..”

Some theologians would say that if a canonization is solemnly proclaimed by the Pope himself, it is infallible; however, this opinion itself has not been defined as doctrine, and so disagreement is possible. Asked this question, Fr. Edward McNamara, a liturgy professor at Regina Apostolorum (Link) had this to say: “ The reason is that the decisions emanating from the consistory are juridical and not theological in nature.”

And he goes on and onnnn about degrees of authority. It is well to remember that the process of canonization is not part of the Deposit of Faith and is not set in stone; it’s not standardized in the Scripture or in the Fathers; it can be revised (as it was in 1917, and again in 1983).

About the absence of any reporting of the Guadalupe apparition in the letters of Bp Juan de Zumárraga:

If you knew the appalling situation Zumárraga was in, you would not be surprised. The top civil authorities at the time were the vicious Nuno de Guzmán and his henchmen: enslavers and abusers of the indigenous people. Guzmán mistreated some missionaries, and went so far as to threaten to hang the bishop for rebellion.. They were sworn enemies of Zumárraga, who was very vulnerable because as “Protector of the Indians” he had no troops or enforcement measures whatsoever except for moral suasion.

Knowing that Zumárraga meant to report their crimes to the Spanish Court, Nuno and his men intercepted and censored all letters from New Spain. (Zumárraga finally did get one uncensored letter through in a cake of wax which he immersed in a barrel of oil!) He revealed that the first missionaries, starting with Fray Bartolomé de Olmedo, despite their zeal were ineffective in converting the Indians.

At the beginning of 1530, after Guzmán had departed, the acts of oppression of his fellow administrators against Indians and missionaries were such that Zumárraga declared an interdict against them: a suspension of Mass and the Sacraments. Guzman’s clique were for a time excommunicated. Suffice it to say that in letters before the Guadalupe Event you find Zumarraga despondent about the moral depravity of New Spain and the general lack of success of the Catholic mission.

In any case, the conquerors’ excesses resulted in a great deal of rancor and hatred by the conquered. The Aztec, Chichimec, and related people were stolidly opposed to conversion to the Christian faith; neither did the Spanish political and military leaders favor it, since they were interested in exploiting the indigenous people, not telling them that they were spiritual equals, created not for slavery, but for liberty and dignity. (The military governors were not about to expose the Indians to the Natural Law theories of Bartolome de las Casas or the School of Salamanca!)

So it stood before 1531: the Indians sullen when not in open rebellion, the Bishop depressed and beleaguered.

Then from 1532 until his death in 1548, bang! Zumarraga’s letters show a transformed man, a whirlwind of optimism: he sent for teachers and established schools in which Indian girls enrolled in droves; founded the Colegio Tlaltelolco and various hospitals (Mexico City and Veracruz); instituted technical schools in mechanics, agriculture, and industrial trades; and, just two years before he died, introduced the first printing press in the Western Hemisphere. And native people were begging for baptism, not only in Mexico City, but Tlaxcala, Texcoco, Huejotzingo, and as far away as Veracruz: during the last years of Zumarraga’s episcopate, at the very least, 5 million Indios baptized.

“[Nican Mopohua] ...an official document of who? The church, the government, the local priest?”

It is a classical Nahuatl work, written as a Tecpaneca testimonial, as is indicted by the words “Nican Mopohua,” repeated throughout the text, which manifest a formal declaration (“It is hereby declared.”) The author, Don Antonio Valeriano, was a nephew of emperor Montezuma and a witness, as he lived between 1520 and 1606. He was 11 years old in 1531, the year of the apparitions, and 28 in 1548, when Juan Diego Cuautlatoatzin died. In 1533, at 13 years of age, Don Antonio Valeriano, acquainted with Nahuatl literary and courtly tradition through the tutelage of his parents, began studies at the Holy Cross School of Tlatelolco, founded by Zumarraga. He was, therefore, one of the first Indians to speak and write Latin, Spanish and Nahuatl, and was governor of Azcapotzalco for 35 years.

There’s more documentary proof for the Nican Mopohua than for any other Nahuatl document of the 16th-17th centuries. As I see it, you either have to consider it "very probably reliable," or dismiss native testimony altogether.

And as for the Codex Escalada (Link), well, judge for yourself.

About conversions and numbers:

I would like to see reasonable guesstimates for the population of Mexico in the 1530’s. The native people of Mexico experienced epidemic diseases in the wake of European conquest, beginning with the smallpox epidemic of 1519 to 1520 when 5 million to 8 million people perished.(I got this from a CDC historical review of infectious diseases (Link) I have seen estimates that the population of Mexico City dropped as low as 100,000.

”How many people were converted to Islam in a few decades? That doesn’t require any miraculous explanation, so why does this?”

"A few decades"... are you speaking of the century after Muhammad's hegira?? And were those conversions to Islam occasioned by girls' schools, barefoot mendicant preachers, opponents of oppression, and hevenly apparitions of maternal sweetness --- or by jihad? You tell me.

48 posted on 01/02/2013 3:15:55 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (May the Lord bless you, May the Lord keep you, May He turn to you His countenance and give you peace)
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To: elkfersupper
Oh, yeah, yeah. And this: #48.
49 posted on 01/02/2013 3:18:13 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (May the Lord bless you, May the Lord keep you, May He turn to you His countenance and give you peace)
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To: DogByte6RER; Calpernia; Liz; TADSLOS; DoughtyOne; dragnet2; Travis McGee; All

We’ve known about Hezbollah being in Mexico for years. Freeper Calpernia, and myself to a lesser extent, did extensive research and posting on the Islamic influence in Mexico for years. Few wanted to be bothered to notice the threat.

Forget the Arab Spring, Bengazi, Iraq and Afghanistan. The failed narco state of Mexico is more dangerous than all of them put together.

And it’s not just Mexico...Latinos in the USA are embracing Islam.
[snip]Latino Arab American Advisory Committee

Civil Rights Training

February 19, 2011

9:00a.m. – 12:30p.m.

UCI-Social Sciences Plaza B Room: SSPB 1208

Latino American Dawah Organization (LADO)

Since its beginning in 1997, LADO has been an organization committed to promoting Islam among the Latino community within the United States. We focus on educating Latinos about Islam as a way of life. We also educate Latinos and others about the legacy of Islam in Spain and Latin America as well as about the growing Latino Muslim community in the United States. While adhering to our guiding principles, we accomplish our mission through an array of programs, services, and publications. For example, we provide free information about Islam to all interested parties.

Our goal is to provide the most relevant information and resources. Alhamdulillah (All praise is due to God), many Latinos are embracing Islam. Some feel that they are reclaiming their Islamic heritage. What is Islam? Who is a Muslim?

“¡Puro Latino! ¡Puro Islam! ¡A su LADO!”[snip]
TheTownCrier: Muslim Jihad the Mexican way!
towncriernews.blogspot.com/2011/.../muslim-jihad-mexican-way.html

Keyword, FreeRepublic: Hezbollah

A Deliberate act of Terrorism - Mexico
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2472183/posts

Napolitano Says People From Countries Tied to Terrorism Could ‘Potentially’ Enter USA, But DHS Reports Says Thousands Already Have (2010)
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/62027

TheTownCrier: The Middle East on fire...as our media ignores ...
towncriernews.blogspot.com/.../middle-east-on-fireas-our-media-ignores.html - Cached
Jan 30, 2011 ... U.S. border guards got a surprise when they searched a Mexican BMW and
found a hardline Muslim cleric - banned from France and Canada ...


50 posted on 01/02/2013 6:21:16 PM PST by AuntB (Illegal immigration is simply more "share the wealth" socialism and a CRIME not a race!)
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