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MARTIN LUTHER KING, CONSERVATIVE?
Powerline ^ | 01/21/2013 | Steven Hayward

Posted on 01/21/2013 5:02:56 PM PST by SeekAndFind

I’m confused. I hear there is some kind of celebration of a black leader going on in Washington today, Martin Luther King Jr’s birthday, except that it’s somebody else.  I think I’ll skip whoever this poser may be, and celebrate Dr. King instead for his conservative principles.

Scott writes movingly below about King’s prophetic gifts and courage, and rightly so.  I appended a brief note about how King’s “Letter from the Birmingham Jail” contains a short treatise about natural law that is a serious difficulty and deep embarrassment for today’s liberals, who wish to acknowledge and empower nothing higher than an individual’s own will:

One may well ask: “How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?” The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that “an unjust law is no law at all.”

Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine whether a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man-made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas: An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law.

In addition, as with his “I Have a Dream Speech” in Washington in 1963, King in Birmingham called for America to live up to its principles and promises, rather than attacking America’s principles and promises as fraudulent like Obama’s long-time pastor Rev. Jeremiah Wright, or most other Zinn-Chomsky style leftists today.  (Interesting, by the way, that a Southern Baptist preacher would invoke the Roman Catholic figures Augustine and Aquinas in this argument.)

People forget these conservative and deeply American strains to King’s message.  At the time of his death he was contending against the Black Panthers and the more radical fringe of the New Left (even as he turned against Vietnam and started saying dodgy things about socialism).  “I can’t agree with the move toward a kind of Black Nationalism,” King told the New York Times in a cautiously worded criticism of Stokely Carmichael.  King’s murder swung events toward radicalism.  Washington DC civil rights leader Julius Hobson, for example, argued that “The next black man who comes into the black community preaching non-violence should be violently dealt with by the black people who hear him.  The Martin Luther King concept of nonviolence died with him.”

On Saturday, CNN took note of the fact that many conservatives consider King a hero. And look at who they quote:

“He was against all policies based on race,” says Peter Schramm, a conservative historian. “The basis of his attack on segregation was ‘judge us by the content of our character, not by the color of our skin.’ That’s a profound moral argument.”

Go Peter! (By the way, there’s almost no one, except perhaps Peter Myers, who can express the full greatness of Frederick Douglass better than Peter.) And see also more of this tribute from Human Events. I suspect if there were a rigorous content analysis done of who invokes which parts of King, you’d find conservatives cite King’s thought much more than liberals, who only invoke his out-of-focus image and legacy. In this respect, Clarence Thomas is the real heir to King today—not Jesse Jackson or Obama.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: blackconservatives; conservative; martinlutherking; mlk
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1 posted on 01/21/2013 5:02:58 PM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

The late Rev. King had a mix of philosophy, both orthodox (classical liberal, which we would cal conservative) and especially in later years, dabbling in socialism. Socialism is what you get when you have a theology based on service without a very definite God to serve.


2 posted on 01/21/2013 5:05:51 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (How long before all this "fairness" kills everybody, even the poor it was supposed to help???)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

RE: dabbling in socialism

So, the answer to the question in the title :

MARTIN LUTHER KING, CONSERVATIVE?,

is NO. He was in fact, a FISCAL liberal.

What about his SOCIAL policies? Would he be for abortion and gay marriage? Being socialist, would he be for tax payer funding of Planned Parenthood and Sandra Fluke’s demands?


3 posted on 01/21/2013 5:08:51 PM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: HiTech RedNeck

Well said.

Definitely a mix, but certainly NOT a Conservative. Those who say so are cherry picking quotes.


4 posted on 01/21/2013 5:09:25 PM PST by RIghtwardHo
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To: SeekAndFind

He was a communist tool!


5 posted on 01/21/2013 5:14:09 PM PST by dalereed
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To: SeekAndFind

It’s difficult to say if his mercurial personality would have gone far enough to embrace that, or if he would have viewed it as undignified. It’s moot; what we have to work with is what he left us with.


6 posted on 01/21/2013 5:23:56 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (How long before all this "fairness" kills everybody, even the poor it was supposed to help???)
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To: dalereed

EXACTLY!! He was a communist street organizer just like O’dumbass, he just wasn’t a gay one.


7 posted on 01/21/2013 5:27:55 PM PST by Segovia
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To: SeekAndFind

Despite what King said about judging people by the content of their character, I’m unconvinced that he came even close to being a conservative. He badmouthed the soldiers fighting in Vietnam, addressed the leftist “New Politics” conference in 1967, and seemed to be moving left at the time of his assassination.


8 posted on 01/21/2013 5:30:02 PM PST by Taft in '52
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To: Taft in '52

RE: He badmouthed the soldiers fighting in Vietnam

Did he give any opinion about the Vietnam Communists who were responsible for the refugees and the killing fields of Cambodia?


9 posted on 01/21/2013 5:31:21 PM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: Taft in '52

I would make the case that, outside of his embrace of Islam, that Malcolm X was much more conservative than King, he advocated blacks taking care of themselves and not waiting for liberal handouts.


10 posted on 01/21/2013 5:31:27 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: HiTech RedNeck

Dr. King was not promoting abortion or gay marriage in the 1960’s and when Jesse Jackson moved in on his mantle of leadership in the 70’s, he didn’t push those ideas either.

King was inspired by liberal theologian Paul Tillich and surrounded by left-wing Communist characters during the late 50’s and 60’s from Harry Belafonte to Hunter Pitts (Jack) O’Dell, Bayard Rustin and so on.

King’s biggest problem (and he knew it) was the sexual misconduct. One biography speaks of three women he has long term relationships with other than his wife and its been published and reported numerous times that MLK frequented prostitutes including two of them at a time..

Dr. King was ashamed of what he did, but didn’t find a way out before he died in 1968 and became a symbol of greatness and a hero in the eyes of many people.


11 posted on 01/21/2013 5:31:43 PM PST by Nextrush (PRESIDENT SARAH PALIN IS MY DREAM)
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To: SeekAndFind
Vietnam Communists who were responsible for the refugees and the killing fields of Cambodia?

The irony is that it was the Vietnam Communists that ousted Pol Pot in 1979....Cambodia was aligned with the ChiComs, while the Vietnamese were in the Soviet camp, and hated the Chinese.

12 posted on 01/21/2013 5:33:01 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: Nextrush

And your point is exactly what?

No mortal being worthy of reverencing, treating them as though they need to be is beyond sensible discussion.


13 posted on 01/21/2013 5:35:23 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (How long before all this "fairness" kills everybody, even the poor it was supposed to help???)
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To: SeekAndFind

Simply put like Ghandi King knew he could not lead his people to a military victory over Western man. Therefore, he looked into the soul of the Westerner and saw a great empty place filled only by eating, drinking, drugging, copulating, evacuating the bowels and snoring. Thus by simple Potemkin like measures King easily obtained the victory finalized by the election of the current occupant of the White House. All that is left to do is the consolidation of the conquest then the real raping and looting can begin.


14 posted on 01/21/2013 5:37:10 PM PST by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: Nextrush

Dr King, like many great leaders was a flawed man. History is full of them. Our Founding Fathers were great but also flawed men. I believe it’s what one does to better society in spite of those flaws that make men great. Dr King fought and rightfully so for the equality of all people in this country. It cost him his life. But we as a nation are far better for his fight.


15 posted on 01/21/2013 5:38:21 PM PST by sean327 (God created all men equal, then some become Marines!)
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To: SeekAndFind


MARTIN LUTHER KING (actually M. L. King, Jr.) (1), above, is seen in 1957 photo at Highlander Folk School (for Communist training) with (2) Abner W. Berry of the Central Committee of the CPUSA, (3) Aubrey Williams, president of the Communist front, the Southern Conference Educational Fund, and (4) Myles Horton, director of the school. Located at Monteagle, Tennessee, the school was closed down by the state of Tennessee; but an offspring is now thriving at Knoxville.

Martin Luther King...and His Communist Affiliations
16 posted on 01/21/2013 5:39:22 PM PST by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: SeekAndFind
King was a liberation theologian and an advocate of democratic socialism.

He was no conservative, and can only be decribed as being less radical than the second wave of revolutionary Marxist liberation theologian.

17 posted on 01/21/2013 5:40:17 PM PST by wideawake
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To: RIghtwardHo

Many sublime quotes are attributed to Dr. King, but my favorite (after “content of character”) is the following:

“In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.”
— Martin Luther King Jr.


18 posted on 01/21/2013 5:40:55 PM PST by BIV (typical white person)
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To: sean327

You’ll surely get filthed here for not being cynical enough, for not crowing that surely King had in mind the present debauchery even if he never penned or spoke of such an aspiration.

King was an extremely flawed man and nobody has the information to project to what in fact is moot. God used the circumstances of a man bent on murder to call King home when He did. That ended the story of his life. What others choose to falsely exploit the story for, is not King’s fault.


19 posted on 01/21/2013 5:43:14 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (How long before all this "fairness" kills everybody, even the poor it was supposed to help???)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

I was trying to tell the whole story of MLK without turning him into some sort of god.

A lot of people here in PA revere Joe Paterno as a diety inspite of the Sandusky scandal.

Paterno did a lot of good things, but made some mistakes along the way.

The story of King comes out that way in my mind.

God has a plan and its a lot more important than personalities.


20 posted on 01/21/2013 5:46:40 PM PST by Nextrush (PRESIDENT SARAH PALIN IS MY DREAM)
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To: Nextrush

You scarcely need to tell nobody HERE “oh look what a god MLK was not.”

Cheese! Can’t you give us credit for some sense, and speak well of what the departed has done when possible? What a very different country this would be if even twice the black people of America took the entirety “I Have A Dream” seriously today, than have?


21 posted on 01/21/2013 5:50:07 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (How long before all this "fairness" kills everybody, even the poor it was supposed to help???)
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To: SeekAndFind

Martin Luther King was a mixed bag. He plagiarized his Harvard thesis. He was a serial womanizer, and was having an affair at the time he was shot. In his later years, he went out to Detroit and Dearborn and began sounding like just another race baiter.

But there was also another MLK, who was, in fact, basically conservative. He started out as a Republican, and was a real Christian despite his sins. He seems to have raised an honorable family, who have not allowed the race baiters to coopt his memory, insofar as they can help it. He was pro-life, and so are they.

So, I would agree with this editorial. He was in many ways far from the race-baiting, pork-swilling black politicians who walked in his footsteps. He was far from perfect, but he was not merely an opportunist like so many of those who wanted to be his heirs.


22 posted on 01/21/2013 5:56:15 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: dfwgator
I would make the case that, outside of his embrace of Islam, that Malcolm X was much more conservative than King, he advocated blacks taking care of themselves and not waiting for liberal handouts.

I agree, despite the fact that at the time, Malcolm X was perceived as being much more radical.

23 posted on 01/21/2013 5:57:16 PM PST by Taft in '52
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To: Taft in '52

Many people completely change for the ill when they fall to the crowd.

Death kept this from happening to MLK, at least any further than it did.


24 posted on 01/21/2013 6:08:11 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (How long before all this "fairness" kills everybody, even the poor it was supposed to help???)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Many people completely change for the ill when they fall to the crowd.

Death kept this from happening to MLK, at least any further than it did.

Had he not been assassinated, he would probably not have his own federal holiday or have dozens of streets named after him. He could very well have faded from the public view, as did his fellow civil rights activists Ralph Abernathy, Hosea Williams, James Meredith and Bayard Rustin.

25 posted on 01/21/2013 6:16:24 PM PST by Taft in '52
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To: SeekAndFind

I do believe there are good reasons not to have a day exclusive to King, but King will be historically remembered as the man who led the way to end racism in the sixties; and ending racism is a Christian Conservative notion based on the Bible. Everything else King did, including his mistakes, made no difference in history; and bringing them up in public only helps Liberals in the notion that all Conservatives are hypocrites in one way or another.


26 posted on 01/21/2013 6:27:16 PM PST by celmak
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To: celmak

RE: and bringing them up in public only helps Liberals in the notion that all Conservatives are hypocrites in one way or another.

So, you honestly believe that a person who thinks like these liberals you describe will like conservatives more if we never brought them up?


27 posted on 01/21/2013 6:30:31 PM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

A plagiarist (very well documented) and a rampant womanizer (well documented) and an enduring symbol of the loss of freedom of association, one of our very fundamental rights as human beings...oh and definitely NOT a conservative.


28 posted on 01/21/2013 6:55:59 PM PST by Harald Westmoreland
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To: SeekAndFind
So, you honestly believe that a person who thinks like these liberals you describe will like conservatives more if we never brought them up?

Who cares if they like you; but don't give them ammo; Libs love it when a person does something Conservative and there ripped a new one for some thing that made no difference historically. Libs, and RINO's love it when the messenger is ripped and try to see that the message is tarnished with the messenger.

29 posted on 01/21/2013 7:05:39 PM PST by celmak
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To: celmak

Honestly discussing a person’s legacy, principles and ideas based on PUBLIC records and history is not ammo.

It’s what the thinking person, who does not blindly worship any man ( be he Jefferson, Lincoln or MLK ) does.

Liberals WILL twist statements conservatives say regardless.


30 posted on 01/21/2013 7:08:29 PM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: HiTech RedNeck

MLK claimed to be working for liberty. and notwithstanding the egregious racial bigotry of his time, he should have completely rejected the murderous tyranny of Marxism and communism as an unacceptable palliative in ANY context.

I wish to make it clear that I think that Martin Luther King was a man of enormous courage, charisma, and intellect that profoundly altered the course of American history and made it a better country in so far has its promise of justice for all is concerned.

This does not mean however that his legacy to the Civil Rights movement has been one of unalloyed good. I believe much of his bequeathment resulted in an over reliance on big government statist solutions to problems within the black community that require individual initiatives to correct. Martin Luther King’s frequent references to this nation’s founding documents are well known. His reflections on Communism are much less well known and undoubtedly contributed to his general philosophy. We owe it to ourselves to examine the effects of this legacy and contextualize it so has to solve the problems facing the black community today.

While King himself was not a communist, he did business with communists and was influenced by them. This delicate subject, made more so given the martyrdom and subsequent lionization of King, should nevertheless be broached as a means of providing insight into some of the darker forces that worked their way into what was essentially a pro American, conservative, Christian civil rights movement.
King surrounded himself with communists from the beginning of his career. His closest advisor Stanley Levison was a Communist. The Southern Christian Leadership Conference, formed in 1957 and led by King, had Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth as Vice President who was at the same time president of the Southern Conference Education Fund, an identified communist front according to the Legislative Committee on un-American Activities, Louisiana (Report April 13, 1964 pp. 31-38).

The field director of SCEF was Carl Braden, a known communist agitator who was also involved in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, which counted Lee Harvey Oswald, the communist assassin of President Kennedy as a member. King maintained regular correspondence with Carl Braden. Bayard Rustin, a known communist, was also on the board of SCLC.
Dr. King addressed the Highlander Folk School in Monteagle, Tenn., 1957, previously known as the Commonwealth College until the House Committee on un-American Activities sited it as a communist front (April 27, 1949). HCAA found that Commonwealth was using religion as a way to infiltrate the African-American community by, among other techniques, comparing New Testament texts to those of Karl Marx. King knew many communists associated with the Highlander school.
King hired communist official Hunter Pitts O’Dell, 1960, at the SCLC. The St. Louis Globe Democrat reported (Oct. 26, 1962) “A Communist has infiltrated the top administrative post in the Rev. Martin Luther King’s SCLC. He is Jack H. O’Dell, acting executive director of conference activities in the southeastern states including Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana.” Dr. King fired O’Dell when this became public but subsequently rehired him to head the SCLC New York office.

King himself expresses a Marxist outlook in his book “Stride Toward Freedom” when he stated, “in spite of the shortcomings of his analysis, Marx had raised some basic questions. I was deeply concerned from my early teen days about the gulf between superfluous wealth and abject poverty, and my reading of Marx made me even more conscious of this gulf. Although modern American capitalism has greatly reduced the gap through social reforms, there was still need for a better distribution of wealth. Moreover, Marx had revealed the danger of the profit motive as the sole basis of an economic system”

King, unfortunately, didn’t understand that it was Capitalism and freedom that was responsible for the successes the African-American community already had achieved in his day and the key to future success. By “better distribution of wealth” King meant state control over the economy. His contempt for “the profit motive” was unfortunate given that African-Americans should’ve been encouraged by their leaders to seek fair profit to the best of their ability. King’s leftist ideas contributed to an opening of the floodgates to such radicals as Stokley Carmichael, H. Rap Brown, the Black Panthers, as well as the burning and looting of African-American neighborhoods, the institutionalizing of poverty perpetrating welfare, the destruction of the family, drugs, violence, racism, and crime.

In “Stride Toward Freedom” Dr. King states “In short, I read Marx as I read all of the influential historical thinkers from a dialectical point of view, combining a partial yea and a partial no. My readings of Marx convinced me that truth is found neither in Marxism nor in traditional capitalism. Each represents a partial truth. Historically capitalism failed to see truth in collective enterprise and Marxism failed to see the truth in individual enterprise. The Kingdom of God is neither the thesis of individual enterprise nor the antithesis of collective enterprise, but a synthesis which reconciles the truths of both.”

King, like Marx, Lenin, and Stalin, had “a dialectical point of view.” The goal of the dialectic is authoritarianism. A nation, to paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, cannot be half free and half slave. By advocating socialism, King chose an imperious stand toward his own people in contrast to a stand for genuine freedom, self-rule, self-sufficiency, private ownership, and the accumulation of capital. King did not advocate the American system of free market capitalism. Instead, he stood for a system that has stunted the growth of African-Americans as well as the rest of us.

All Marxists believe in Hegelian Dialectics. This is a belief that “progress” is achieved through conflict between opposing viewpoints. Any ideological assertion (thesis) will create its own opposite (antithesis). Progress is achieved when a conclusion (synthesis) is reached which espouses aspects of both the thesis and antithesis.
For example, Hitler had a dialectical point of view. He rejected Marxist class warfare, but embraced the basic socialist idea of the insignificance of the individual compared to the collective state.

This belief in dialectical progress is why liberals pit the rich against the poor, old against young, black against white, men against women, gay against straight, ad nauseam.
This issue is somewhat clouded by what Dr. King wrote in his 1957 book “Stride toward Freedom: the Montgomery story”, in which he wrote the following devastating critique of the sort of communism practiced in the Communist super state of the Union of Soviet Socialist republics.
“During the Christmas holidays of 1949 I decided to spend my spare time reading Karl Marx to try to understand the appeal of communism for many people. For the first time I carefully scrutinized *Das Kapital and The Communist Manifesto. I also read some interpretive works on the thinking of Marx and Lenin. In reading such Communist writings I drew certain conclusions that have remained with me as convictions to this day.
First, I rejected their materialistic interpretation of history. Communism, avowedly secularist and materialistic, has no place for God. This I could never accept, for as a Christian, I believe that there is a creative personal power in the universe who is the ground and essence of all reality-a power that cannot be explained in materialistic terms. History is ultimately guided by spirit, not matter.
Second, I strongly disagreed with communism’s ethical relativism. Since for the Communist there is no divine government, no absolute moral order, there are no fixed, immutable principles; consequently almost anything-force, violence murder, lying-is a justifiable means to the ‘millennial’ end. This type of relativism was abhorrent to me. Constructive ends can never give absolute moral justification to destructive means, because in the final analysis the end is pre-existent in the means.
Third, I opposed communism’s political totalitarianism. In communism, the individual ends up in subjection to the state. True, the Marxists would argue that the state is an ‘interim’ reality which is to be eliminated when the classless society emerges; but the state is the end while it lasts, and man is only a means to that end. And if man’s so-called rights and liberties stand in the way of that end, they are simply swept aside. His liberties of expression, his freedom to vote, and his freedom to listen to what news he likes or to choose his books are all restricted. Man becomes hardly more, in communism, than a depersonalized cog in the turning wheel of the state.
This deprecation of individual freedom was objectionable to me. I am convinced now, as I was then, that man is an end because he is a child of God. Man is not made for the state; the state is made for man. To deprive man of freedom is to relegate him to the status of a thing, rather than elevate him to the status of a person. Man must never be treated as means to the end of the state; but always as an end within himself.”
Martin Luther King Jr., *Stride Toward Freedom: The Montgomery Story* (New York: Harper and Row, 1957), 92-93

Don’t forget that the above was written in 1957, a period in which the oppressions of the Soviet Union are painfully evident, evidenced by the brutal repression of the Hungarian uprising in 1956. At the time Stride toward Freedom was written, domestic attitudes toward communism could not have been more hostile. Toward the end of Dr. Martin Luther King’s life, the counterculture revolution of the sixties and the leftist tinted civil rights movement made favorable considerations of communism generally more palatable.

While Martin Luther King Day should be one of reflection and appreciation for what has been accomplished, and a reckoning of what still needs to be done, it should also be a day of understanding, in terms clear of emotionally driven rhetoric, where the civil rights movement went wrong. A major key to this understanding, I would contend, is the destructive effects that communist ideas and outright infiltration has had on the African-American community. Communists tried to use African-Americans as cannon fodder by stoking hatred and racial division. A predominantly white left-wing establishment promoted Black communists in order to preserve an informal system of oppression.

The fact is that he WAS a socialist and that goes to the heart of what went wrong with the civil rights establishment after the legal battles against codified discrimination were won.

I am a black man who has been getting calluses on my dome from butting heads with those in my community who refuse to relinquish big government statist solutions for the problems plaguing the black community in favor of free market solutions that are far more appropriate today. These forces frequently cite Dr. King and use his exhortations to government to lead the way. They specifically cite his socialist outlook as justification for their continuance. The two parent black family was destroyed by LBJ’s welfare state. That was the worst cultural calamity to EVER befall the black community in the US, and the most destructive force in its cultural life notwithstanding the imposition of Jim Crow law via the Supreme Court’s Plessy v Fergueson decision. MLK was a leading proponent for expanding the welfare state, whose baleful effects were just beginning to be seen in the black community.

MLK was a man of enormous charisma and courage and certainly a pivotal figure in the civil rights movement. There is much about him that I admire. An assessment of his life could creditably yield the adjective of great. Despite that, he does not deserve to be the ONLY American with his own holiday named after him. That honor should be reserved for only one person in American history, the greatest of all Americans, George Washington. More so than any other SINGLE figure in our history, he was the “indispensable man.” Without his courage, acumen, honor, and integrity, the US would simply not exist, and if it did, it probably would have been as a monarchy and certainly not as a constitutional republic.

MLK’s birthday holiday was a sop to PC and a reflection of the DemocRAT Congress that voted it. The depth of MLK’s association with the most anti-freedom ideology (Communism) of our time will prove to very embarrassing when it is fully revealed. Additionally, MLK’s legacy to the modern day civil rights movement is a socialist bequeathment that of looking to big government solutions for many of the behavioral problems in today’s black community. MLK continues to cast a long shadow over most of the modern day civil rights establishment and black politicians who largely reject free market, educationally based solutions to the unique problems plaguing the black community.


31 posted on 01/21/2013 7:10:01 PM PST by DMZFrank
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To: DMZFrank

I think what ends up happening is that ultimately the Marxists and extreme left are the ones who latch on and force the leader to the left, because they are responsible for most of his support.

A similar thing happened to Nelson Mandela, originally he was very anti-communist, and tried to purge the Communists from the ANC, ultimately he wound up succumbing to their power, and became one of them.


32 posted on 01/21/2013 7:12:38 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: SeekAndFind

And what value is added from ripping up Jefferson about his private life?


33 posted on 01/21/2013 7:14:14 PM PST by celmak
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To: celmak

RE: And what value is added from ripping up Jefferson about his private life?

If it is the TRUTH? I say it is always of value.

We can learn from a man’s accomplishments as well as his mistakes.

What was the value for instance of the Bible mentioning King David’s sins as well as King Solomon’s?

Why bother to mention Peter’s denial of Christ 3 times?

Same principle applies here.

We can always learn from what a famous person does right as well as wrong.


34 posted on 01/21/2013 7:16:43 PM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: DMZFrank

Isn’t that funny that he actually thought he could come to a compromise with Marxism too, call it a dialectic or whatever you want. If Marxism actually wanted compromise, it would soon compromise itself away and cease to exist. No it’s not a philosophy of compromise, it’s a philosophy of appearing to use compromise in order to keep digging into the norm.


35 posted on 01/21/2013 7:24:29 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (How long before all this "fairness" kills everybody, even the poor it was supposed to help???)
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To: SeekAndFind

True, but the Old Testament is from God who is perfect; and the New Testament states that you meet with your brother in private when he sins so as not to make non-believers stumble. Paul was all over the case of Christians fighting amongst themselves in public.


36 posted on 01/21/2013 7:25:42 PM PST by celmak
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To: SeekAndFind

Discretion is about not blurting out every single solitary thing your thinking mind might think about.


37 posted on 01/21/2013 7:26:32 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (How long before all this "fairness" kills everybody, even the poor it was supposed to help???)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Discretion is about not blurting out every single solitary thing your thinking mind might think about.

In other words, "Never tell anyone outside the Family what you are thinking again."

38 posted on 01/21/2013 7:32:24 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: celmak

RE: the New Testament states that you meet with your brother in private when he sins so as not to make non-believers stumble

How do you meet with someone like Thomas Jefferson, whose life is PUBLIC?


39 posted on 01/21/2013 7:35:01 PM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: HiTech RedNeck

RE: Discretion is about not blurting out every single solitary thing your thinking mind might think about.

I agree, but yet, wisdom is about bringing things out in public WHEN NECESSARY.

I believe HONESTLY and RESPECTFULLY discussing Martin Luther King’s political beliefs is one of them.


40 posted on 01/21/2013 7:36:23 PM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

What are you trying to prove about Jefferson? Something negative about him? You give those who like to rip the US fodder for those who are learning about the US; just like what happens in government schools. Why do you think kids come out of schools hating the US?


41 posted on 01/21/2013 7:43:40 PM PST by celmak
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To: celmak

RE: What are you trying to prove about Jefferson? Something negative about him?

Nope, we have to tell it like it is.

What he accomplished for the country -— GOOD.

Personally, he had his flaws. I don’t call that ripping at all. I call that LEARNING from his mistakes. And if we teach both truthfully and in a balanced way, I see no reason why his accomplishments for the country are in any way, reduced and why kids should hate him.

Policy wise, we should also honestly discuss his support for the French Revolution. That is NOT in any way ripping him. That is LEARNING FROM HISTORY.


42 posted on 01/21/2013 7:47:36 PM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

I’ll grant you policies; but when I hear about unverifiable fornication that has nothing to do with policy, I cringe - especially when it comes from our side. I didn’t care about Clinton’s affair either; until he broke the law trying to hide it.


43 posted on 01/21/2013 7:58:03 PM PST by celmak
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To: celmak

RE: but when I hear about unverifiable fornication that has nothing to do with policy, I cringe

What if the fornication was verifiable? Should that not be part of history?

I say it should.

Let’s just say that Jefferson’s adultery with Sally Hemmings were verified...( and In 1998, DNA tests revealed a match between her last child and the Jefferson male family line. Although some historians have noted that the evidence can also support other possible fathers, most have concluded that Jefferson had a long relationship with Hemings and fathered at least one and likely all of her six children, four of whom survived to adulthood.)

I don’t see why the truth ( all of the above statement I made ) cannot be discussed by historians. If one feels that it isn’t necessary in a classroom setting, I’ll grant you that, but why the heck should it not be discussed and debated?

That relationship would not in any way diminish the Declaration of Independence or the Louisiana Purchase or his support for the Lewis and Clark expedition.

Any clear thinking person will NOT conclude thusly:

“Because Jefferson fathered a child by a black woman, the ideals of the Declaration are now null and void”

Only an idiot will think that way.


44 posted on 01/21/2013 8:06:29 PM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: celmak

“King will be historically remembered as the man who led the way to end racism in the sixties”

The only problem with your statement is that “racism” didn’t “end in the sixties”...

Where did you get that idea?


45 posted on 01/21/2013 8:43:00 PM PST by Road Glide
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To: wideawake; Jack Hydrazine
King was a liberation theologian and an advocate of democratic socialism.

And during his final days, was Martin Luther King, Jr. preaching the Gospel of Christ? No! Instead his plan of salvation as he marched in Memphis was to advocate for slavery -- the slavery of unionism. He wasn't much of a preacher or much of a Christian. Advocating for the Big Labor goons of the AFSCME is the mark of a communist not a man of God.

And King's brazenly opposed freedom and individual liberty as he spoke against Right to Work:

“In our glorious fight for civil rights, we must guard against being fooled by false slogans, such as ‘right to work.’ It is a law to rob us of our civil rights and job rights. Its purpose is to destroy labor unions and the freedom of collective bargaining by which unions have improved wages and working conditions of everyone. Wherever these laws have been passed, wages are lower, job opportunities are fewer and there are no civil rights. We do not intend to let them do this to us. We demand this fraud be stopped. Our weapon is our vote.”

That's disgusting rhetoric and is certainly most un-Christian. The tell-all photo posted by Jack Hydrazine shows the real MLK, not the faux saint who was given a federal holiday the union-supported liberals.

46 posted on 01/21/2013 8:45:47 PM PST by re_nortex (DP...that's what I like about Texas.)
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To: re_nortex

Whatever else he did, he was one of the primary players in the undermining of association of freedom, and for me that negates a lot of what some consider “good” that he did. Freedom of assocation was one of the oldest God-given rights. The lack of it was the acceleration of all the present “social engineering”.


47 posted on 01/21/2013 9:15:51 PM PST by mrsmel (One Who Can See)
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To: mrsmel
Whatever else he did, he was one of the primary players in the undermining of association of freedom, and for me that negates a lot of what some consider “good” that he did. Freedom of assocation was one of the oldest God-given rights. The lack of it was the acceleration of all the present “social engineering”.

I couldn't agree more. Rand Paul took a lot of heat even here on Free Republic when he merely questioned some of the aspects of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Likewise Barry Goldwater saw the dangers opened by this Pandora's Box, which as we now see nearly 50 years later, has only impeded freedom, liberty and as you so correctly point out, has trampled the God-given right of free association. And lurking behind the bit-by-bit dismantling of the Principles set forth by our Founding Fathers is the shadow of one Martin Luther King, Junior.

48 posted on 01/21/2013 9:36:29 PM PST by re_nortex (DP...that's what I like about Texas.)
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To: DMZFrank

Well written and very informative post. Thank you for sharing your obviously much deliberated thoughts on the subject.


49 posted on 01/21/2013 10:39:09 PM PST by beaversmom
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To: SeekAndFind
What if the fornication was verifiable? Should that not be part of history?

Agreed; that's why I stated unverifiable.

Any clear thinking person will NOT conclude thusly

Unfortunately there are a lot of young impressionable people that have not learned that lesson, so we have to be careful that we stipulate this if it is brought up, "That [the] relationship would not in any way diminish [his contributions]."

Looks like we've come close to parity; and thanks for a decent conversation.

50 posted on 01/22/2013 6:17:32 AM PST by celmak
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