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Proposed AZ bill would require loyalty oath for HS students to graduate
KTAR ^ | Jan. 23, 2013 | Aaron Granillo

Posted on 01/25/2013 4:10:57 PM PST by hoagy62

PHOENIX -- Republican lawmakers have introduced a bill that would give Arizona high school seniors the option to recite a loyalty oath before they graduate.

Originally, House Bill 2467 would have made the oath a prerequisite for graduation from any public high school in the state. The Arizona Capitol Times reported the change Tuesday.

"To me it's not a Republican bill, it's not a Democrat bill, it's an American bill," said Rep. Steve Smith of Maricopa, one of the bill's sponsors. "People feel that our high school kids that will be adults should understand their role as an American citizen."

(Excerpt) Read more at ktar.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; US: Arizona
KEYWORDS: arizona; loyalty; loyaltyoath; oath
The oath reads... "I, _____, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose or evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge these duties; so help me God."

Atheists are protesting, saying that they either have to refuse to say the oath and face not graduating, or say it and lie, which they also don't want to do.

Is this even legal or constitutional?

1 posted on 01/25/2013 4:11:04 PM PST by hoagy62
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To: hoagy62

I also saw that the language of the bill changed, saying that it was now an option.


2 posted on 01/25/2013 4:12:14 PM PST by hoagy62 ("Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered..."-Thomas Paine. 1776)
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To: hoagy62

That’s just stupid and accomplishes nothing


3 posted on 01/25/2013 4:14:34 PM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: hoagy62

Some of the graduates may not be US citizens for a variety of reasons. If the parents have a legal L-1 or H1B visa, or even a green card, it is perfectly possible that they are citizens of another country, and plan to return there.


4 posted on 01/25/2013 4:14:44 PM PST by proxy_user
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To: hoagy62

It says it’s optional, so who gives a crud?

Two problems I have with this. Firstly, why do we occasionally pretend oaths still matter in our contractual/egalitarian society? Secondly, why would we have to pledge allegiance to anything, including the Constitution, if the people are sovereign? I understand if you’re serving as an officer of the constitutional government. But since when did being a good citizen require allegiance to scraps of paper? Those laws are to pen in the state, not us.


5 posted on 01/25/2013 4:20:47 PM PST by Tublecane
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To: hoagy62
say it and lie, which they also don't want to do

They are atheists...what do they care if they lie about it?

6 posted on 01/25/2013 4:22:49 PM PST by Domandred (Fdisk, format, and reinstall the entire .gov system.)
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To: hoagy62
Obama took almost the same oath twice. He has no problem lieing about his oath. Same for most democrat politicians.
7 posted on 01/25/2013 4:36:30 PM PST by ExSafecracker (. .CHANGE !! . . Jimmy Carter is no longer Americas worst President.)
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To: Tublecane
If we don't support and defend the constitution, and scowl menacingly at the government it's supposed to pen while cleaning our rifles, what incentive has that government to follow the Constitution? What then compels that government to remain penned?

I believe we all ought to commit ourselves, privately or openly, with or without formal oaths, to bearing "allegiance to scraps of paper". Those "scraps of paper" are all that stands between us and tyranny.

8 posted on 01/25/2013 4:39:37 PM PST by ExGeeEye (It's been over 90 days; time to start on 2014. Carpe GOP!)
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To: HiJinx; AZamericonnie; Brad's Gramma

Ping


9 posted on 01/25/2013 4:44:06 PM PST by SandRat (Duty - Honor - Country! What else needs said?)
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To: GeronL
That’s just stupid and accomplishes nothing

Exactly. Liberals don't mind lying and will still betray our country even after taking an oath. Conservatives are already loyal to America and to freedom. The oath is unnecessary in this situation. An oath for soldiers and vows for marriage (the real thing, not gay "marriage") are worth doing, for a ceremony marking a major transition and acceptance of new responsibilities, but not for a graduation that mainly signifies having sat in a chair enough days each year for twelve years.

10 posted on 01/25/2013 5:06:46 PM PST by Pollster1
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To: hoagy62; All

Regarding the constitutionality of requiring the oath, there are no constitutional prohibitions with the states making such requirements per se. However, sadly, if AZ doesn’t make the reference to God optional, then AZ deserves to fall flat on its face with this bill because of inevitable 1st and 14th Amendment issues imo.

Next, are AZ schools actually teaching students the Constitution as the Founding States had meant for it to be understood, or is this oath pure theater like DC lawmakers give us? Otherwise, AZ is unthinkingly requiring students to essentially swear to protect and defend PC interpretations of the Constitution that they get from radical teachers; students might as well get the Constitution from the streets.


11 posted on 01/25/2013 5:11:30 PM PST by Amendment10
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To: hoagy62

This is good enough:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.


12 posted on 01/25/2013 5:15:57 PM PST by donna (Pray for revival.)
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To: ExGeeEye

You assume everyone wishes to defend the Constitution, which isn’t in evidence. Obviously if we want to keep it we must actively defend it and not rely on hollow legislate. What really killed the Constitution, assuming as I do it no longer has the force of law, though, was an ideological shift from relative laissez-faire to progressivism. So it was not the scrap of paper itself, no, but how people esteemed it, or didn’t.

This points rather to Natural Law as what to which we must pledge our allegiance. Pledging allegiance to the Constitution stinks to me of idolatry. Should we wish to hold politicians to the Constitution, it might be better to do so through promoting Natural Law, partly which the positive law of the Constitution embodies.

By the way, when I asked why we occasionally pretend to still be an oath taking culture, the answer I believe is social control. Oaths are necessary for hierarchical societies. Your betters, ones in a higher caste, pledge to defend you, and you pledge to obey them. This arrangement persists in certain aspects of our civilization, for instance the family, churches, various clubs, etc. But it has nothing to do with the relation of citizen to government in the contemporary U.S.


13 posted on 01/25/2013 5:17:42 PM PST by Tublecane
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To: ExGeeEye

You assume everyone wishes to defend the Constitution, which isn’t in evidence. Obviously if we want to keep it we must actively defend it and not rely on hollow legislate. What really killed the Constitution, assuming as I do it no longer has the force of law, though, was an ideological shift from relative laissez-faire to progressivism. So it was not the scrap of paper itself, no, but how people esteemed it, or didn’t.

This points rather to Natural Law as what to which we must pledge our allegiance. Pledging allegiance to the Constitution stinks to me of idolatry. Should we wish to hold politicians to the Constitution, it might be better to do so through promoting Natural Law, partly which the positive law of the Constitution embodies.

By the way, when I asked why we occasionally pretend to still be an oath taking culture, the answer I believe is social control. Oaths are necessary for hierarchical societies. Your betters, ones in a higher caste, pledge to defend you, and you pledge to obey them. This arrangement persists in certain aspects of our civilization, for instance the family, churches, various clubs, etc. But it has nothing to do with the relation of citizen to government in the contemporary U.S.


14 posted on 01/25/2013 5:17:43 PM PST by Tublecane
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To: GeronL; Pollster1
Ah Ah Ah!

You forget Communist Goal Number 13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.

http://www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm

Such a move is one in the right direction.

15 posted on 01/25/2013 5:38:15 PM PST by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.-Sarah Palin)
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To: SandRat; HiJinx; AZamericonnie; Brad's Gramma

I would propose that they actually teach courses on the constitution in schools.


16 posted on 01/25/2013 5:39:41 PM PST by AZamericonnie
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To: Tublecane
You assume everyone wishes to defend the Constitution

No, I don't.

I do wish to defend the Constitution; I took an oath to do so, and meant it. It was required for me to embark upon my chosen voluntary employment, but contained little that I had not, from my extreme youth, already determined to do. There are more than a couple other people who agree with me in this.

...assuming as I do it no longer has the force of law...

Enough of it survives that the President still felt compelled to campaign for re-election on schedule, and probably would have felt compelled to leave office had the vote count gone the other way. Enough of the Second Amendment survives that the would-be tyrants among us are still talking about so-called "reasonable control" rather than door-to-door SWAT-led confiscation. I could go on, but won't.

This points rather to Natural Law as what to which we must pledge our allegiance.

Please point to where the "Natural Law" is written out and everyone agrees on what it is, reather than being a nebulous construct (Like a recipe for hash) that is whatever a person says it is. For me, "Natural Law" is the "law of the jungle"-- the strong devour the weak.

...pretend to still be an oath taking culture...

Perhaps you pretend. Others, including myself, do not. I dismiss, without malice, the remainder of that paragraph.

17 posted on 01/25/2013 5:43:56 PM PST by ExGeeEye (It's been over 90 days; time to start on 2014. Carpe GOP!)
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To: donna

Amen that is enough, and it is not required for graduation and should not be.

In NAZI Germany they had to say a pledge to Hitler. This is not Nazi Germany.


18 posted on 01/25/2013 5:43:56 PM PST by Venturer
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To: ExGeeEye

Consider what happens when the Marxists, socialists, and Communists succeed in using massive vote fraud to subvert the U.S. Congress and state governments to repeal the Second Amenddment and other key protections in the Constitution, and you have already demanded U.S. Citizens to take an oath of allegiance to the altered Constitution? Without the oath of allegiancee to the perverted constitution a Citizen might be denied the right to vote, hold political office, hold a firearms permit, possess firearms, hold a driver’s license, receivee equal protection in public healthcare insurance programs, receive food stamps, receive social security benefits, travel on airlines or passeenger trains, serve in the amred forces, serve in any public employment, own real estate, maintain financial accounts in a public bank, and worse. These kinds of consequences occured in Hitler’s NAZI regime, and the oath of allegiance to the person of Hitler was used in part to implement such measures. Enemies of the present U.S. Constitution could do so as well by altering the Constitution and then demand the oath of all U.S. Citizens. A precedent of sorts already esicts to some extent with the Pledge of Allegiance.

The Pledge of Allegiance was written by Francis Bellamy in 1892. Bellamy was a socialist who also played a role in the socialist subversion of the American educational systems and socialist indoctrination of young students. Much of the Marxist, socialist, and communist destruction of the culture of the United States is attributable in part to the efforts of Francis Bellamy. He designed the Pledge of Allegiance to be a means of reddirecting loyalties away from the the loyalties betweeen the band of brothers protecting and defending the personal liberties of each other to a loyalty towards a government, a flag, and a constitution that could become perverted against its original purposes.

Be careful, my friends, lest you ultimately get far more consequences from an oath of allegiance or pledge of allegiance exactly contrary to what you thought you had bargained for. Remember always, any tool efffective for a good purpose can be perverted to use for an evil purpose by evil minded people.


19 posted on 01/25/2013 5:52:06 PM PST by WhiskeyX
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To: ExGeeEye

First, there has probably never been anything upon which all persons could agree. So, arguments based upon universal agreement are inherently impossible to accomplish and a falsee argument to pursue.

Secondly, natural law is by its origins a philosophical origin rooted in deductive reasoning. The Founding Fathers relied upon a number of works and the practical experience of prior governments such as the Estates General of the Netherlands to implement certain principles of natural law in the development of the U.S. Constitution and the state constitutions.

It can be argued that natural law is in conflict with ecclesiatical law, feudal law, absolutist monarchial law, and more. Nonetheless, the natural law treatises have been given real world application in the American constitutions with great success. The problem now is discriminating between beneficial natural law and false claims of natural law such as though propounded by the Marxists, socialists, and communists. Remember the author who wrote in the introduction of his book a recognition of Lucifer as his example.


20 posted on 01/25/2013 6:03:31 PM PST by WhiskeyX
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To: hoagy62

My very first real job was at Texas Instruments and in order to work there with any sort of security clearance you had to take an oath with pretty much this same wording.


21 posted on 01/25/2013 6:18:21 PM PST by Slyfox (The key to Marxism is medicine - Vladimir Lenin)
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To: hoagy62

My very first real job was at Texas Instruments and in order to work there with any sort of security clearance you had to take an oath with pretty much this same wording.


22 posted on 01/25/2013 6:18:39 PM PST by Slyfox (The key to Marxism is medicine - Vladimir Lenin)
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To: hoagy62

Gesture politics are generally the kind of stupidy Democrats engage in. I suggest AZ move to a part time legislature with part time pay. These folks clearly don’t have enough real work to do.


23 posted on 01/25/2013 6:19:00 PM PST by Hugin ("Most times a man'll tell you his bad intentions, if you listen and let yourself hear."---Open Range)
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To: hoagy62

My very first real job was at Texas Instruments and in order to work there with any sort of security clearance you had to take an oath with pretty much this same wording.


24 posted on 01/25/2013 6:19:39 PM PST by Slyfox (The key to Marxism is medicine - Vladimir Lenin)
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To: Slyfox

Sorry about the triple posting, I think my wireless is fixing to go on siesta.


25 posted on 01/25/2013 6:21:01 PM PST by Slyfox (The key to Marxism is medicine - Vladimir Lenin)
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To: Tublecane; All
You assume everyone wishes to defend the Constitution, which isn’t in evidence.

Which version of the Constituiton are you talking about concerning people not wanting to defend it? Are you talking about the Constitutution as the Founding States had intended for it to be understood, the version which reflects the Founders' division of federal and state government powers, but which few people seem to be aware of these days?

Or are you talking about the street version of the Constitution that radical professors teach, the version which promotes the unconconstitutional centralization of government power in DC?

26 posted on 01/25/2013 6:27:34 PM PST by Amendment10
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To: GeronL

I don’t think it should be implemented- but what a fascinating debate it will start. :)

People should line up and show their intentions for public education. Let everyone see what we are paying for.


27 posted on 01/25/2013 6:43:35 PM PST by Truth2012
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To: hoagy62

Oaths must be freely given to have any meaning. This is just stupid.


28 posted on 01/25/2013 7:07:31 PM PST by zagger
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To: hoagy62

when I graduated, all of my classmates abd I just assumed that was expected of us....how sad you have to be reminded of it now!


29 posted on 01/25/2013 7:39:40 PM PST by terycarl
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To: AZamericonnie; SandRat; HiJinx
I would propose that they actually teach courses on the constitution in schools.

The REAL way, too...not the PC way.

30 posted on 01/25/2013 10:58:40 PM PST by Bradís Gramma (Psalm 83)
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To: hoagy62
Is this even legal or constitutional?

No, it's neither.

The Oath is an oath of service for political offices and officers, NOT something that can be forced upon the natural citizens at large.

In addition, an Oath taken under duress [unwillingly] cannot be considered legally binding.

In a nutshell, this bill is just political noise to appear as if someone is doing something to stop the wave of progressive pestilence that's sweeping this country.

31 posted on 01/26/2013 4:56:02 AM PST by MamaTexan (To follow Original Constitutional Intent, one MUST acknowledge the Right of Secession)
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