Modesty in Ultra-Orthodox Brooklyn Is Enforced by Secret Squads

The New York Times ^ | January 30th, 2013 | Joseph Berger

[KantianBurke]

In the close-knit world of ultra-Orthodox Judaism, community members know the modesty rules as well as Wall Street bankers who show up for work in a Brooks Brothers suit. Women wear long skirts and long-sleeved, high-necked blouses on the street; men do not wear Bermuda shorts in summer. Schools prescribe the color and thickness of girls’ stockings.

The rules are spoken and unspoken, enforced by social pressure but also, in ways that some find increasingly disturbing, by the modesty committees. Their power is evident in the fact that of the half dozen women’s clothing stores along Lee Avenue, only one features mannequins, and those are relatively shapeless, fully clothed torsos.

“There are quite a few men, especially in Williamsburg, who consider themselves Gut’s polizei,” said Yosef Rapaport, a Hasidic journalist, using the words for “God’s police.”

“It’s somebody who is a busybody, and they’re quite a few of them — zealots who take it upon themselves and they just enforce. They’re considered crazy, but people don’t want to confront them.”

[KantianBurke]

See the “threatening me or my family” part. No citizen should passively endure that and I certainly won’t.

[livius]

Actually, I grew up in NYC and lived there most of my life and actually worked with and know people from these communities. The ones I worked with were quite Othodox but not part of the Satmar community, which is the one that has the most problems and is the most closed. These people are literally bussed to Manhattan in separate, closed busses to work in things like the diamond trade, and their "communities" are like police states. The rabbis wear their 18th century Eastern European garb (breeches, hose and fur hats) and are like gods in these communities. They don't permit their people who are suffering from domestic violence, child molestation or anything crime in their community to talk to the NYC police, they are allowed to violate practically every civil law out there because the police are afraid to enter their neighborhoods, and they contribute a huge amount of money to the Democrat party. That's the only reason they've been able to get away with things for so long.

BTW, maybe you should learn to be more articulate and stop the garbage mouth if you want to discuss this.

[rcrngroup]

Over 70% of Jews in this country voted for 0bama in the last election, and 78% voted for him in 2008. The stats I recall is that approx 54% of Catholics voted for 0bama. In any case, anyone who voted for 0bama or democRATs in general should be ashamed of themselves for voting to destroy our country!

[daniel1212]

THEY AREN’T GOING INTO PEOPLE’S HOMES. Stop spreading lies to feed the jihadi-*sslickers here on FR.

I had no intention of doing the latter, and i described what the liberals would like to do, but I read that some (from a Hasidic modesty committee) went into homes, but which must have been based upon the allegations below.

The Brooklyn district attorney, Charles J. Hynes, who prosecuted the Weberman case, has now received allegations that members of a modesty committee forced their way into a home in the borough, confiscating an iPad and computer equipment deemed inappropriate for Orthodox children, officials say .

Not that this is something the NYT would see wrong if it was police raiding homes because they taught Judaeo-Christian values to their children.

[EinNYC]

Time to get off your self-righteous soapbox, Livvie-la.

I am very much aware of the private Chassidic-run buses into NYC from northern Rockland County neighborhoods. The buses are tailored to supporting their lifestyle, i.e. they are constructed like a synagogue on wheels so that the men can hold morning services there instead of having to first go to their community synagogues. A great time-saver. It is not only the rabbis who wear the characteristic Chassidic dress, but every man. They don't wear their "fur hats" every day, only on the Sabbath or holidays. Jewish law dictates that one should attempt to solve domestic problems within the community first. Going to outside authorities would only be done when community efforts failed. If you had been persecuted by civil governments for centuries and been murdered at the hands of these very same governments, you would also show extreme hesitation, perhaps to the point of not even considering the possibility, before going to a government entity to let your dirty laundry hang out to people not of your culture. How is that different from many FReepers who also don't trust the government?

Where do you get your "facts" about the Chassidim donating "huge amount[s] of money to the Democrat party"? I don't know ANY Orthodox Jews who support the Democratic party. They are all conservatives and therefore align with the Republican party. They are disgusted with the liberals' support of abortion, homosexuality, etc. And your comment "That's the only reason they've been able to get away with things for so long" smacks of anti-semitism.

[Kenny Bunk]

I don't know ANY Orthodox Jews who support the Democratic party. They are all conservatives and therefore align with the Republican party. They are disgusted with the liberals' support of abortion, homosexuality, etc. .....

Your circle of acquaintance might be quite small. Hillary got a very substantial share of their votes and she got some hefty geld from them, too. So, are many indeed occasionally Republican, and perhaps many not?

Now another question, please. How did they break for Romney? Inquiring mind wants to know.

[KosmicKitty]

Can individuals who wish to leave this environment move to another state?

Are they followed and forced back to Brooklyn?

Do they behead apostates?

Just curious.

[S.O.S121.500]

The ultra-Orthodox community keeps its people under very tight control, and, probably inspired by Islam, it’s getting worse.

---

I’m sorry, who learned from whom? islam is a “Johnny come lately” to the table of monotheism.

[EinNYC]

They can certainly move away, but most do not want to. Brooklyn is the center of Orthodox Jewish life, especially Chassidish life, in the U.S., particularly on the East Coast. They are born in Brooklyn, employed in either Brooklyn or Manhattan, their friends and relatives are in Brooklyn. They are totally attuned to the folkways and mores of their community and would have a hard time adjusting to a more secular area of the country. Also, Chassidim want to be near their Grand Rabbi ("Rebbe").

"Followed and forced back to Brooklyn"? LOL. Hardly. There is no organized entity which polices their behavior, only perhaps a few looney-tunes who are misguided and are not a part of anything official. Their community reinforces their conscience because everyone wants to fit in. They don't want people to gossip that they wore an immodest dress, ate food of questionable kosher-ness, skipped going to synagogue, engaged in immodest behavior such as flirting with the opposite gender, etc. Remember, when their children go looking for a matrimonial match, the other party will very much want to know if the first party adheres to community standards. Failure to do so would result in a very hard time marrying off your kids.

"Behead apostates"? Have you ever heard of Jews beheading Jews? Nope. We leave that for the Mooslimes. That's THEIR thing, not ours.

[Cronos]

comply with community standards or be shunned. It is a potent threat in a neighborhood where shadowy, sometimes self-appointed modesty squads use social and economic leverage to enforce conformity.

sorry, but this is hyperbole from the NYTimes.

a modesty committee threatened to publicly shame a married man who was having an affair.... oooh, publically shaming is bad

There are a few ultra-orthodox Jews and they are using mostly peaceful methods here, so why is it news in the NYTImes when the Islamics doing worse are not?

Silly

Sorry livius, but the ultra-Orthodox are not a problem -- if people want to leave they can. There is no beheading. They do use shunning and public announcements of guilt, but no violence. I don't see any reason to focus on these rather than on the danger of Islam

[Cronos]

What difference is there between these people and the Taliban? Not much from where I’m sitting.

Sorry, that's an exaggeration. The Talibs did not allow women to even leave the house without being covered top to bottom with not even slits for the eyes. They beat and shot women.

They beheaded men etc.

These may be shunning people, but the difference between them and Taliban is wider than the Gulf of Mexico...

[Cronos]

xs That’s precisely what the NYTimes is attempting to insinuate- moral equivalency between the Jews and Muslims. -- there is no moral equivalency

Neither can we compare Mormons to Moslems in terms of moral equivalency.

Islam is insatiably violent and cruel and dehumanising.

Even the ultra-ultra-Orthodox cannot in any way be compared to the Talibs...

[Cronos]

ap: Forcing women to dress modestly is evil.

hmmm... well, using violence against women to dress modestly is bad, yes. Using shame to get MEN and Women to dress modestly is society.

I see no evil here -- maybe zealotry, but no evil

[Cronos]

jjotto: the semi-literate panic buyers of guns and ammo are just as likely to hunt and kill Jews

you mean us rednecks?

[Cronos]

Further, these isolated idiots are just that : isolatd idiots who have no standing in the larger Jewish community. About as representative of the Jewish people as that kooky church that celebrates at funerals is representative of Christians.

true -- montag noted that at the end of the article we find out that these are the group that supported Arafat. far, farrrrrr from mainstream or even orthodox mainstream judaism.

[Jimmy Valentine]

Well in terms of rabid mindless violence I agree that you are perfectly correct.

Some of the traditions I look at askance; women seated apart from men, women covering their hair with wigs or scarves, women not able to go places unescorted, self appointed moraility police on clothing, antiquated dietary laws, speaking out, and the community shunning or falsely testifying against its members.