Skip to comments.Pope Benedict to Resign for Health Reasons
Posted on 02/11/2013 6:51:21 AM PST by traumerEdited on 02/11/2013 7:25:41 AM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
Pope Benedict XVI is to resign from the head of the Catholic Church on February 28, the Vatican confirmed in a statement on Monday, after he said he no longer had the strength to fulfill his duties adequately.
A Vatican press conference started at 11.40 a.m. London time. A Vatican spokesman said the decision "took us by surprise".
(Excerpt) Read more at finance.yahoo.com ...
“Pope Benedict XVI is to resign from the head of the Catholic Church on February 28”
I bet the Pope Pension Fund has done well over the years.
If that is anywhere NEAR the truth, the planet is in serious trouble ... a hell of a lot more trouble (correct adjective phrase) than what the eschatologically unlearned have a clue about.
Ye Must Be Born Again
Is there something more to this story I don't know.
Pope Benedict XVI is assisted as he arrives to attend a meeting with seminarians at the Romano Maggiore seminary in Rome in this February 8, 2013
I didn't say that ... I commented and confessed my ignorance of Latin to Mikey ... ask HIM.
My comment about planetary trouble stands
Malachy's final words:
" In the final persecution of the Holy Roman Church there will reign Peter the Roman, who will feed his flock among many tribulations; after which the seven-hilled city (Rome, the seat of the Vatican) will be destroyed and the dreadful Judge will judge the people."
Is this the Tribulation? Has the Anti-Christ shown himself as a person of peace, but made peace with Israel's enemies for seven years instead?
( No, not seven years yet, but he's done it for the first half of the seven years so far. The second half is when the world gets to see what he really is. It isn't peace in the world he wants.)
He has made suggestions about retiring for quite awhile now. I remember reading recently about speculation about how this would work in light of canon law.
I applaud him for wanting to give the Church a chance to have a Pope who can handle the rigors of the job.
But I will sorely miss this Pope. He has been a good shepherd of the flock.
If only our own politicians were as diligent about preserving the dignity of the office, rather than hanging on to the very end.
The Popes announcement was pretty cryptic, speaking about mind and body.
There’s never been a Pope with age-related dementia. It’s entirely possible that the Pope has evidence that he’s going in that direction, in which case he has a moral obligation to step aside and ensure that the Chuch is in capable hands.
And I say this not as a Roman Catholic (which I’m not) but as someone who believes in the great value a strong and well-led Roman Catholic Church brings to the world.
According to Catholic Answer, the Malachy prophesies are widely considered now to have been a forgery, created in the 1500s, for political reasons. Apparently, the accuracy of the prophecies drops off considerably after the time of it’s “discovery”.
Sometimes the office was vacant for up to 3 years i think.
Canon Law 332 §2 states, “If it happens that the Roman Pontiff resigns his office, it is required for validity that the resignation is made freely and properly manifested but not that it is accepted by anyone.”
The official list of titles of the Pope, in the order in which they are given in the Annuario Pontificio, is: Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the State of Vatican City, Servant of the Servants of God.
The title “Pope” was from the early 3rd century an honorific designation used for any bishop in the West. In the East it was used only for the Bishop of Alexandria. Pope Marcellinus (d. 304) is the first Bishop of Rome shown in sources to have had the title “Pope” used of him. From the 6th century, the imperial chancery of Constantinople normally reserved this designation for the Bishop of Rome. From the early 6th century, it began to be confined in the West to the Bishop of Rome, a practice that was firmly in place by the 11th century, when Pope Gregory VII declared it reserved for the Bishop of Rome.
In Eastern Christianity, where the title “Pope” is used also of the Bishop of Alexandria, the Bishop of Rome is often referred to as the “Pope of Rome”, regardless of whether the speaker or writer is in communion with Rome or not.
Briefly in the 15th century, three separate lines of popes claimed authenticity (see Papal Schism). Even Catholics don’t all agree whether certain historical figures were popes or antipopes. Though antipope movements were significant at one time, they are now overwhelmingly minor fringe causes.
Although the average reign of the pope from the Middle Ages was a decade, a number of those whose reign lengths can be determined from contemporary historical data are the following:
Pius IX (18461878): 31 years, 7 months and 23 days (11,560 days).
John Paul II (19782005): 26 years, 5 months and 18 days (9,665 days).
Leo XIII (18781903): 25 years, 5 months and 1 day (9,281 days).
Pius VI (17751799): 24 years, 6 months and 15 days (8,962 days).
Adrian I (772795): 23 years, 10 months and 25 days (8,729 days).
Pius VII (18001823): 23 years, 5 months and 7 days (8,560 days).
Alexander III (11591181): 21 years, 11 months and 24 days (8,029 days).
St. Sylvester I (314335): 21 years, 11 months and 1 day (8,005 days).
St. Leo I (440461): 21 years, 1 month, and 13 days (7,713 days).
Urban VIII (16231644): 20 years, 11 months and 24 days (7,664 days).
Conversely, there have been a number of popes whose reign lasted less than a month. In the following list the number of calendar days includes partial days. Thus, for example, if a pope’s reign commenced on 1 August and he died on 2 August, this would count as having reigned for two calendar days.
Urban VII (1527 September 1590): reigned for 13 calendar days, died before coronation.
Boniface VI (April 896): reigned for 16 calendar days
Celestine IV (25 October 10 November 1241): reigned for 17 calendar days, died before consecration.
Theodore II (December 897): reigned for 20 calendar days
Sisinnius (15 January 4 February 708): reigned for 21 calendar days
Marcellus II (9 April 1 May 1555): reigned for 22 calendar days
Damasus II (17 July 9 August 1048): reigned for 24 calendar days
Pius III (22 September 18 October 1503): reigned for 27 calendar days
Leo XI (127 April 1605): reigned for 27 calendar days
Benedict V (22 May 23 June 964): reigned for 33 calendar days
John Paul I (26 August 28 September 1978): reigned for 33 calendar days.
Stephen (2326 March 752), died of stroke three days after his election, and before his consecration as a bishop. He is not recognized as a valid pope, but was added to the lists of popes in the 15th century as Stephen II, causing difficulties in enumerating later popes named Stephen. The Holy See’s Annuario Pontificio, in its list of popes and antipopes, attaches a footnote to its mention of Stephen II (III): “On the death of Zachary the Roman priest Stephen was elected; but, since four days later he died, before his consecratio, which according to the canon law of the time was the true commencement of his pontificate, his name is not registered in the Liber Pontificalis nor in other lists of the Popes.”
EastWest Schism to Reformation (10541517)
A historical map of the Mediterranean states in 1400. The Western Schism lasted from 1378 to 1417.
The East and West churches split definitively in 1054. This fracture was caused more by political events than by slight diversities of creed. Popes had galled the emperors by siding with the king of the Franks, crowning a rival Roman emperor, appropriating the Exarchate of Ravenna, and driving into Greek Italy.
In the Middle Ages, popes struggled with monarchs over power.
From 1309 to 1377, the pope resided not in Rome but in Avignon. The Avignon Papacy was notorious for greed and corruption. During this period, the pope was effectively an ally of France, alienating France’s enemies, such as England.
The pope was understood to have the power to draw on the “treasury” of merit built up by the saints and by Christ, so that he could grant indulgences, reducing one’s time in purgatory. The concept that a monetary fine or donation accompanied contrition, confession, and prayer eventually gave way to the common assumption that indulgences depended on a simple monetary contribution. The popes condemned misunderstandings and abuses, but were too pressed for income to exercise effective control over indulgences.
Popes also contended with the cardinals, who sometimes attempted to assert the authority of councils over the pope’s. Conciliar theory holds that the supreme authority of the church lies with a General Council, not with the pope. Its foundations were laid early in the 13th century, and it culminated in the 15th century. The failure of the conciliar theory to gain broad acceptance after the 15th century is taken as a factor in the Protestant Reformation.
Various anti-popes challenged papal authority, especially during the Western Schism (13781417). In this schism, the papacy had returned to Rome from Avignon, but an anti-pope was installed in Avignon, as if to extend the papacy there.
The Eastern Church continued to decline with the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire, undercutting Constantinople’s claim to equality with Rome. Twice an Eastern Emperor tried to force the Eastern Church to reunify with the West. Papal claims of superiority were a sticking point in reunification, which failed in any event. In the 15th century, the Ottoman Turks captured Constantinople.
Various challenges (without comment):
Pope Paul IV, Cum ex Apostolatus Officio, Feb. 15, 1559: In addition, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity We enact, determine, decree and define:-] that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy: www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Articles/john_salza.php
Tradition has it that Marcellinus broke down, bowed to the imperial command, and offered incense in court. Condemned for his apostasy, he was deposed. He repented prior to his execution, however, and died a martyr if not a Pope.
In 357, Liberius signed a compromise deal with the Arians, and returned to Rome. The people threw him a parade, and Liberius, feeling cocky, denied he’d ever made the deal. After the death of the Emperor in 361, Liberius again stepped up his campaign against the Arians, sending so many letters of condemnation that they often hadn’t opened the envelope before a new one arrived.
Even so, it was not enough to get his reputation back, and in death sainthood has eluded him. http://www.popesonparade.com/lists/400.html
Klaus Schatz [Jesuit Father theologian, professor of church history at the St. Georges Philosophical and Theological School in Frankfurt] on Priesthood, Canon, and the Development of Doctrine in his work, Papal Primacy:
The further question whether there was any notion of an enduring office beyond Peters lifetime, if posed in purely historical terms, should probably be answered in the negative. That is, if we ask whether the historical Jesus, in commissioning Peter, expected him to have successors, or whether the authority of the Gospel of Matthew, writing after Peters death, was aware that Peter and his commission survived in the leaders of the Roman community who succeeded him, the answer in both cases is probably no
.. if we ask in addition whether the primitive church was aware, after Peters death, that his authority had passed to the next bishop of Rome, or in other words that the head of the community at Rome was now the successor of Peter, the Churchs rock and hence the subject of the promise in Matthew 16:18-19, the question, put in those terms, must certainly be given a negative answer. (page 1-2)
“If one had asked a Christian in the year 100, 200, or even 300 whether the bishop of Rome was the head of all Christians, or whether there was a supreme bishop over all the other bishops and having the last word in questions affecting the whole Church, he or she would certainly have said no.” (page 3, top)
We probably cannot say for certain that there was a bishop of Rome [in 95 AD]. It is likely that the Roman church was governed by a group of presbyters from whom there very quickly emerged a presider or first among equals whose name was remembered and who was subsequently described as bishop after the mid-second century. (Schatz 4). http://thulcandra.wordpress.com/2007/11/30/klaus-schatz-on-priesthood-canon-and-the-development-of-doctrine/
The Roman Catholic writer Francis Sullivan, in his work From Apostles to Bishops (New York: The Newman Press), painstakingly works through all possible mentions of succession from the first three centuries, and concludes from that study not only that the episcopate [development of bishops] is a the fruit of a post New Testament development, but he interacts with the notion that there is a single bishop in Rome [as a certain Mr. Jones tried to argue] through the middle of the second century, and he flatly dismisses it.
It seems inconceivable that, if there had been a bishop in charge of the church of Corinth at that time, Clement would not have said something about the obligation of the guilty parties to submit to their bishop or about his role in restoring good order to his church.
However, Jones sees a hint of the existence of a bishop in Corinth in the analogy Clement gives for good order: namely, that in the liturgy of the Old Law the high priest, priests, Levites and laity each had their proper tasks. As noted above, this is one of several examples Clement offers of good order, and nothing in the letter supports the conclusion that the Corinthian church must also have had its “high priest.” -
American Roman Catholic priest and Biblical scholar Raymond Brown, in Priest and Bishop: Biblical Reflections, could not prove on historical grounds, he said, that Christ instituted the priesthood or episcopacy as such; that those who presided at the Eucharist were really priests; that a separate priesthood began with Christ; that the early Christians looked upon the Eucharist as a sacrifice; that presbyter-bishops are traceable in any way to the Apostles; that Peter in his lifetime would be looked upon as the Bishop of Rome; that bishops were successors of the Apostles, even though Vatican II made the same claim.. (from, “A Wayward Turn in Biblical Theory” by Msr. George A. Kelly can be read on the internet at www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Dossier/Jan-Feb00/Article5.html)
While the early Church Councils conceded to the Papacy the position of primus inter pares, “first among equals,” this did not give to the Popes any special authority. Second place in precedence was acknowledged for the Patriarch of Constantinople by the Ecumenical Council II of 381, though this was somewhat resented by the older Patriarchates at Alexandria and Antioch. The elevated status for Constantinople was because, of course, this had become the seat of the Emperor, beginning with Constantine, and the principal capital of the Roman Empire. Even when there was a Western Emperor, his seat was no longer at Rome, but in Milan and Ravenna. Indeed, more of the Ecumenical Councils were held in Constantinople (II, V, VI, VIII) than elsewhere — and Council IV was held just across the Bosporus in Chalcedon.
In Constantinople it was unmistakable that the Emperor imposed a unity on the Church that it would not otherwise have, and that would not otherwise be claimed until the Papacy began arrogating powers to itself that otherwise had belonged only to the Emperor or to Church Councils. I have discussed above how the term “Caesaro-Papism,” often used for the role of the Emperor in Constantinople, is applied more appropriately to the Popes themselves, whose claims and accumulation of power were an innovation, while the role of the Emperor had precedents all the way back to Constantine (and earlier, when a Roman Emperor was the Pontifex Maximus). What ends up being distinctive about the Orthodox Churches in communion with Constantinople is that, although Constantinople was responsible for the establishment of several such Churches, e.g. Bulgaria and Russia, the new ones ended up with independent authority, i.e. they were autocephalous, and were in no way subordinate to Constantinople the way the Popes expected national churches to be obedient to them. The principle is still that Orthodox Churches base their doctrine on the Ecumenical Councils. www.friesian.com/popes.htm
It is illuminating to understand that even some very illustrious Roman Catholic theologians today recognize that the Papacy as it now exists is of late origin. W. DeVries admits, ...throughout the first ten centuries Rome never claimed to have been granted its preferred position of jurisdiction as an explicit privilege (Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism by Methodios Fouyas, p. 70). Avery Dulles considers the development of the Papacy to be an historical accident. The strong centralization in modern Catholicism is due to historical accident. It has been shaped in part by the homogeneous culture of medieval Europe and by the dominance of Rome, with its rich heritage of classical culture and legal organization (Models of the Church by Avery Dulles, p. 200) http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/ecumenical/maxwell_peter.htm
Peter Lampe is a German theologian and Professor of New Testament Studies at the University of Heidelberg, whose work, From Paul to Valentinus: Christians at Rome in the First Two Centuries, was written in 1987 and translated to English in 2003. The Catholic historian Eamon Duffy (Irish Professor of the History of Christianity at the University of Cambridge, and former President of Magdalene College), said all modern discussion of the issues must now start from the exhaustive and persuasive analysis by Peter Lampe. (Saints and Sinners, A History of the Popes, Yale, 1997, 2001, pg. 421).
The picture that finally emerges from Lampes analysis of surviving evidence is one he names the fractionation of Roman Christianity (pp. 357408). Not until the second half of the second century, under Anicetus, do we find compelling evidence for a monarchical episcopacy, and when it emerges, it is to manage relief shipments to dispersed Christians as well as social aid for the Roman poor (pp. 4034). Before this period Roman Christians were fractionated amongst dispersed house/tenement churches, each presided over by its own presbyterbishop. This accounts for the evidence of social and theological diversity in second-century Roman Christianity, evidence of a degree of tolerance of theologically disparate groups without a single authority to regulate belief and practice, and the relatively late appearance of unambiguous representation of a single bishop over Rome. Review of this work, from Oxfords Journal of Theological Studies: http://reformation500.blogspot.com/2008/08/review-of-from-paul-to-valentinus.html)
Roger Collins (M.A., D. Litt., F.R.Hist.S., F.S.A. Scot., English medievalist at Edinburgh) has written a very thorough history of the papacy (Keepers of the Keys of Heaven: A History of the Papacy; http://www.amazon.com/Keepers-Keys-Heaven-History-Papacy/dp/0465011950/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236398577&sr=8-1
There was no individual, committee or council of leaders within the Christian movement that could pronounce on which beliefs and practices were acceptable and which were not. This was particularly true of Rome with its numerous small groups of believers. Different Christian teachers and organizers of house-churches offered a variety of interpretations of the faith and attracted particular followings, rather in the way that modern denominations provide choice for worshipers looking for practices that particularly appeal to them on emotional, intellectual, aesthetic or other grounds (15-16).
The late Catholic priest and major Biblical scholar Raymond Brown (twice appointed to Pontifical Biblical Commission) states,, The claims of various sees to descend from particular members of the Twelve are highly dubious. It is interesting that the most serious of these is the claim of the bishops of Rome to descend from Peter, the one member of the Twelve who was almost a missionary apostle in the Pauline sense a confirmation of our contention that whatever succession there was from apostleship to episcopate, it was primarily in reference to the Puauline tyupe of apostleship, not that of the Twelve. (Priest and Bishop, Biblical Reflections, Nihil Obstat, Imprimatur, 1970, pg 72.)
American Roman Catholic and Biblical scholar Raymond
The Catholic historian Paul Johnson goes a bit further than Brown, in his 1976 work History of Christianity:
By the third century, lists of bishops, each of whom had consecrated his successor, and which went back to the original founding of the see by one or the other of the apostles, had been collected or manufactured by most of the great cities of the empire and were reproduced by Eusebius A History of Christianity, p. 53 ff.) - http://reformation500.wordpress.com/2010/01/14/historical-literature-on-the-earliest-papacy/
Before the second half of the second century there was in Rome no monarchical episcopacy for the circles mutually bound in fellowship. Peter Lampe’s extensive work, “From Paul to Valentinus,” chapter 41, pages 397 - http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2010/08/this-bridge-should-be-illuminated.html
“Recent research on the Reformation entitles us to sharpen it and say that the Reformation began because the reformers were too catholic in the midst of a church that had forgotten its catholicity...”
The reformers were catholic because they were spokesmen for an evangelical tradition in medieval catholicism, what Luther called “the succession of the faithful.” The fountainhead of that tradition was Augustine (d. 430). His complex and far-reaching system of thought incorporated the catholic ideal of identity plus universality, and by its emphasis upon sin and grace it became the ancestor of Reformation theology. Jaroslav Pelikan, The Riddle of Roman Catholicism (New York: Abingdon Press, 1959, p. 46)
If we keep in mind how variegated medieval catholicism was, the legitimacy of the reformers’ claim to catholicity becomes clear. (Pelikan, pp. 46-47)
Or maybe he just got his diagnosis ... and it says something like “Alzheimer’s Disease”.
“Don’t know what you said, Mikey ... but it looks like Benedict has had too many conflicts and (implied) doesn’t want the job anymore”
Another former Artane Industrial School inmate and co-founder of Irish Survivors of Child Abuse told the Guardian that he suspected Pope Benedict’s willingness to help the victims of clerical abuse had been thwarted by ultra conservative elements in the Vatican, and told Henry McDonald in Dublin:”
One of the organisations representing victims of Catholic clergy in Ireland’s notorious orphanages and industrial schools said today that survivors would not miss Pope Benedict, reports Henry McDonald from Dublin.
Irish Survivors of Child Abuse said the outgoing pope had broken all his promises to offer them some semblance of justice for the crimes of priests and other members of religious orders in Ireland.
John Kelly, one of the founders of Irish Soca and a former inmate at Dublin’s notorious Artane Industrial School which was run by the Christian Brothers, said Pope Benedict had resisted their demands to properly investigate and in some instances disband religious orders tainted by sexual and physical abuse.”
I agree with you. I do not know a single person that wants to die on the job. Do you best, retire, relax enjoy the last few years.
That's odd. If his health is that poor, you'd think someone would have noticed.
You'd hope that people would not be so oblivious.
The pope has had bouts of illness before and wanted to resign back in the 90s, but was persuaded otherwise by John Paul II. Now he is 85, which seems to be a break down point for many of us, even though who have enjoyed fairly good health.
curiouser and curiouser
So much for the healiung power of Jesus...
I am in shock. I hope he did the right thing
This neglects the way that the office of bishop developed from the equivalent of chief Rabbi to prelate. The apostles were charismatic figures, but more prophet than priest. When we say that bishops were successors to the apostles, we are speaking of the passing down of the spiritual authority, the teaching authority primarily. The Reformers had a poor sense of history and unconsciously assumed that the early Christians were pretty much like themselves and projected onto the Scripture a vision of their own society as the norm. Luther has a more sophisticated notion, but he also assumed that the Jews he knew were the Jews of Jesuss time. But rabbinical judaism was a development of the post-temple period, where the role of priests was more or less subsumed into that of the rabbi. The Christian priesthood took another route, with the Eucharist as the replacement of the temple sacrifices. The first bishops were simply leading men of the first churches. We have forgotten how important Alexandria was in the ancient world.It was its New York, with Rome never being more than the Philadelphia, and Constantinople being the equivalent of Washington. For the church, the great significance of Rome was as the shrine city for the martyrs and apostles, Peter and Paul. It was the petrine authority that took preeminence, however. After the destruction of Jerusalem and its reconfiguration as a Roman garrison city, Rome quickly became the center of focus and pilgrimages to its shrines replaced those to Jerusalem, in no large part because transportation to it was available as its center of the empire.
The man began using a moving platform last year to reduce his walking distance. It's well known that Benedict had at least one stroke prior to his election. Ever notice his crooked smile? There are other signs of his having had a stroke too.
The fact that a spokesman is surprised doesn't mean he's oblivious to Benedict's health. It just means he's surprised.
I appreciate Pope Benedict's service to the Church. He could have declined and spent the best of his last remaining years of health with his brother. And doing what he loved--study. But he had the obedience to accept what was asked of him. Now he has the humility to admit his physical limitations. May God grant that I be as faithful as he has been!
I feel the same. Is it selfish of me to hope he still has a few books left in him?
I don't look forward to the Catholic bashing and other nonsense we'll be hearing in the coming weeks. I've resolved that every time I hear it I'm going to pause and thank God for having given us such a dear German Shepherd.
Peace be with you.
Next up, Peter the Roman.
Bad times ahead.
yup, because the results don’t go the way you believe they should, God can’t heal anyone. Thanks for showing us your foray into libtard logic.
That’s it! The first thought that entered my mind upon hearing the news earlier and I’m sticking with it. There maybe ‘legitimate’ reasons for him to step down but ‘the forces that be’ are spiritual. He may indeed feel tired and/or turmoil behind the scenes he does not want to deal with but can’t. It’s not about him.
It is just ‘the time’. It sure explains all the angst when Truth is presented and evil being so highly offended/taking it all personal deliberately.
You are welcome.
Thanks for showing that GOD won't even heal His top MAN in the Universe.
(Perhaps there is something amiss here???)
1 Corinthians 11:30
That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
The issue is how truth is established, and whether historical descent and even being the steward of Scripture makes such assuredly infallible, or at least a body without whose sanction no one can have real authority.
The Reformers had a poor sense of history and unconsciously assumed that the early Christians were pretty much like themselves and projected onto the Scripture a vision of their own society as the norm.
On the other side we see a projection of Rome and a demigod papacy into Scripture, well your take is one interpretation, but a man of weightier name had a different way of dealing with the dissent of Reformers, which has been shown before,
"It was the charge of the Reformers that the Catholic doctrines were not primitive, and their pretension was to revert to antiquity. But the appeal to antiquity is both a treason and a heresy. It is a treason because it rejects the Divine voice of the Church at this hour, and a heresy because it denies that voice to be Divine..."
"I may say in strict truth that the Church has no antiquity. It rests upon its own supernatural and perpetual consciousness. Its past is present with it, for both are one to a mind which is immutable. Primitive and modern are predicates, not of truth, but of ourselves." - Most Rev. Dr. Henry Edward Cardinal Manning, Lord Archbishop of Westminster, The Temporal Mission of the Holy Ghost: Or Reason and Revelation (New York: J.P. Kenedy & Sons, originally written 1865, reprinted with no date), pp. 227-228 .
Luther has a more sophisticated notion, but he also assumed that the Jews he knew were the Jews of Jesuss time.
Well, i do not think he was assuming the structure was the same in operation, but as regards general demeanor, at the overall level, greater men seemed to have the same basic conception:
"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. " (Acts 7:51)
"And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles. " (Acts 18:6)
"Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. " (1 Thessalonians 2:16)
How many people in your particular congregation(s) have ever become old ... or ill ... or 'fallen asleep'?
What are your particular congregation(s), anyway?
Holy Spirit filled believing in HIM and what HE says ALONE.
Perhaps you see it/us as a peculiar people that praises HIM alone?
How many people in your particular congregation(s) have ever become old ... or ill ... or 'fallen asleep'?
The point you are trying to make actually supports PresentlyNoScreenName. We’re all equals here, including your pope. Only One stands above.
This exchange, to which you are a newcomer, began with post #17. Perhaps you could try to explain what point that individual was trying to make.
In your opinion, that is.
No popes so far!
The old 'show me yours' trick.
Do you think I want to waste my time trying to defend the ERRORS of my church?
If it takes an outsider to decipher another's point; wouldn't that be classified as MindReading?
His Holiness would be well advised to retire to Castel Gondolfo and spend the rest of his days relaxing and enjoy an occasional glass of an excellent glass of cold local Frascati.
Your failure to actually answer my questions is noted.
Why is the “top man” any more protected than Jesus?
Why is this “top man” any different from the Apostles, all of whom were killed for their faith? Why is he any different from any other leader of the faith, who was martyred or suffered?
What about the Apostle Paul, who had his own physical infirmities he asked be removed, only for God to say that His grace was sufficient for him to deal with it.
Do you think God is everyone’s personal genie just there to grant every wish we have? That He’s just a vending machine that gives us whatever we want? We bang out a few formulaic words and we have to get what we want?
We all die. Being Christian doesn’t mean we will not die, not get sick, not suffer, as we are forgiven, the consequences of sin, the consequences of living in a fallen world, are still here for us. The difference is we know that through it all God is with us. It doesn’t take any faith to live if God gives you everything. People that get everything they want we call spoiled, self-centered little brats. We also call them the ungrateful takers that think they deserve entitlements. You want everyone to live like Paris Hilton or the people that think they deserve to live off other peoples’ money?
This deserves a picture; but I'll let it slide.
fine, miss the point entirely. you’re only arguing for the sake of arguing, andthat’s all you want to do. see ya.
You confuse the papacy with the caesaro-papalism. With the papacy, there was never more than an accidental relationship with political power. The Church as always been wllling to concede the secular power to the state, except where the state goes against the willing of God, steps over its bounds and claims to be Gods viceroy. Pretty much what Saul did, and which David did not. The conflict between the papacy and the emperors was always intence, and often the popes would set up a Jehu
against a defiant house of Omri
Leo XIII.one of our greater popes, lived to a very old age in the late 19th century. The last three or four years are not, however, productive, although Leo was not constantly in the public eye as Benedict has been.
Ok; if you REALLY want to get to the heart of the matter....
Is Peter the 'rock'?
As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'
BEFORE the following verses came along.....
NIV 1 Corinthians 10:4
and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
NIV Luke 6:48
He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.
NIV Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
NIV 1 Peter 2:4-8
4. As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him--
5. you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
6. For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
7. Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, "
8. and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.
But, since there WAS no NT at the time Christ spoke to Peter, just what DID Peter and the rest of the Disciples know about ROCKS???
NIV Genesis 49:24-25
24. But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
25. because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty, who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb.
NIV Numbers 20:8
"Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."
NIV Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
NIV Deuteronomy 32:15
Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior.
NIV Deuteronomy 32:18
You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.
NIV Deuteronomy 32:30-31
30. How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up?
31. For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede.
NIV 1 Samuel 2:2
"There is no one holy like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.
NIV 2 Samuel 22:2-3
2. He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
3. my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-- from violent men you save me.
NIV 2 Samuel 22:32
For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?
NIV 2 Samuel 22:47
"The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!
NIV 2 Samuel 23:3-4
3. The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: `When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
4. he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.'
NIV Psalms 18:2
The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.
NIV Psalms 18:31
For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?
NIV Psalms 18:46
The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!
NIV Psalms 19:14
May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.
NIV Psalms 28:1
To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.
NIV Psalms 31:2-3
2. Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me.
3. Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me.
NIV Psalms 42:9
I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"
NIV Psalms 62:2
He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.
NIV Psalms 62:6
He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.
NIV Psalms 62:7
My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.
NIV Psalms 71:3
Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.
NIV Psalms 78:35
They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.
NIV Psalms 89:26
He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.'
NIV Psalms 92:14-15
14. They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green,
15. proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him."
NIV Psalms 95:1
Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.
NIV Psalms 144:1
Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.
NIV Isaiah 17:10
You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.
NIV Isaiah 26:4
Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.
NIV Isaiah 30:29
And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.
NIV Isaiah 44:8
Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."
NIV Habakkuk 1:12
O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock, you have ordained them to punish.
And now you know the Biblical position!
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