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US grounds all F-35s over engine blade crack
Flight International ^ | 22 February 2013 | Zach Rosenberg

Posted on 02/22/2013 5:01:05 PM PST by Yo-Yo

All Lockheed Martin F-35s are grounded while the programme investigates the root cause of a crack discovered on 19 February in a third-stage low-pressure turbine (LPT) blade deep inside the Pratt & Whitney F135 engine.

The discovery of the blade crack comes five years after the first flight of the F-35B short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) variant was delayed several months due to fatigue-related blade failures in the third-stage LPT.

The latest crack - discovered only days after the F-35B returned to flight following a 25-day grounding caused by a fueldraulics failure - was discovered on 19 February by a borescope inspection on an F-35A at Edwards AFB, California, and confirmed by an eddy current inspection, P&W says.

"It is too early to know the fleet-wide impact of this finding," says the Joint Program Office (JOPO). But all F-35s are grounded "until the investigation is complete and the cause of the blade crack is fully understood".

The engine in the 19 February incident has run a total of around 700h, of which 409h were flight hours, P&W says.

Though the issue was found in a single engine, there was no clear cause behind the crack. The engine's turbine module has been shipped to P&W's Connecticut test facility for closer inspection.

"We will conduct more thorough evaluations to determine the cause of the indication of the crack," the engine maker says.

Lockheed referred all questions about the grounding to the international joint programme office.

Two previous incidents with the third stage low pressure turbine blades have resulted in F-35 groundings in the past, once in 2007 and again in 2008. Those incidents, which both occurred in the F-35B vertical-takeoff variant, were traced to high-cycle fatigue. Unexpected vibration levels were caused by interaction of the the blade with the wakes from vanes upstream of the third-stage turbine.

The troubled aircraft programme, meant to provide a new fighter-bomber for all three major services of the US military, has been grounded several times before.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Government
KEYWORDS: aerospace; navair
More teething pains for America's newest fighter. How does that alternative F136 engine look now?
1 posted on 02/22/2013 5:01:17 PM PST by Yo-Yo
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To: Yo-Yo

Gee yet another major procurement program FUBAR


2 posted on 02/22/2013 5:04:00 PM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Yo-Yo

Pratt & Whitney just ain’t what they used to be.


3 posted on 02/22/2013 5:45:30 PM PST by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: Yo-Yo

Blade failure can be pretty bad news in a single-engine STOVL airplane.


4 posted on 02/22/2013 6:37:32 PM PST by Steely Tom (If the Constitution can be a living document, I guess a corporation can be a person.)
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To: Yo-Yo
A cheaper, lighter, smaller plane flown by a really top notch pilot can beat a bigger, more complex plane almost every time. Look at the Red Flag/Top Gun instructors in F-5s who beat the bigger costlier birds time and time again.

And the US has the capability to produce better trained pilots than any other country on Earth. (Maybe Israel can do better, but they aren't talking). The world comes here to learn how to fly fighters.

So with that in mind, what are we doing? Building fewer fighters. More complex and apparently more delicate fighters. Go figure.

We would do well to remember Stalin's axiom "Quantity has a quality all its own".

5 posted on 02/22/2013 6:40:49 PM PST by Notary Sojac (Ut veniant omnes)
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To: smokingfrog

Nothing is what it used to be.

Wish we could just buy some more F-15SE and build the F-22 numbers up to what they were supposed to be and SK the F-35. It jut isn’t worth it.


6 posted on 02/22/2013 6:41:25 PM PST by Sequoyah101
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To: Sequoyah101

Yeah, well, asking the USAF brass to buy more of a 20 year old design is like asking your wife to buy a 20 year old dress at the consignment shop. Gotta have what’s in the show windows at the mall!!!


7 posted on 02/22/2013 6:46:06 PM PST by Notary Sojac (Ut veniant omnes)
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To: Notary Sojac

No, my wife goes for the forgotten (modest) fashions at the thrift store every time.


8 posted on 02/22/2013 6:50:07 PM PST by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not NurtureĀ™)
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To: Notary Sojac
A cheaper, lighter, smaller plane flown by a really top notch pilot can beat a bigger, more complex plane almost every time. Look at the Red Flag/Top Gun instructors in F-5s who beat the bigger costlier birds time and time again.

Not quite the same thing. The cheaper, ligher, smaller plane can't carry the fuel or weapons to prevail in a real fight. They can only prevail in the instructor/student scenarios set up by Red Flag and Top Gun.

9 posted on 02/22/2013 6:52:11 PM PST by Yo-Yo
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To: steve86

Put her in charge of weapons procurement, pronto!!


10 posted on 02/22/2013 6:56:31 PM PST by Notary Sojac (Ut veniant omnes)
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To: Yo-Yo
Don't our guys still fight under ROE requiring a positive visual ID before firing? (I could be totally wrong in this)

That almost reduces it to a knife fight right there.

11 posted on 02/22/2013 6:59:03 PM PST by Notary Sojac (Ut veniant omnes)
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To: Notary Sojac
Don't our guys still fight under ROE requiring a positive visual ID before firing? (I could be totally wrong in this)

That was Vietnam. We now live in the age of AWACS.

12 posted on 02/22/2013 7:01:56 PM PST by Yo-Yo
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To: Notary Sojac

We would do well to remember Stalin’s axiom “Quantity has a quality all its own”.

The Russians did this with cheap, effective, and cleverly-designed weapons that could be churned out and used by semi-skilled people in WWII. And, except at the end of the war, any honest person would agree that our equipment was markedly inferior to virtually all of the German and a lot of the British equipment. But we made a hell of a lot of it and we had a lot of people trained and eager to use it.

Arthur C. Clarke wrote a science fiction story early in his career that chronicled the failure of a technologically superior, but overly complex military in a future war between planetary systems.

IMO, much of our high-tech military equipment is in danger of being overwhelmed by mass numbers of cheap or decoy weapons. The Iranians are counting on this, because it is their only chance. Same with Hamas, with their ten dollar upscaled bottle rockets requiring a $20K anti-missile missile to counter them.


13 posted on 02/22/2013 7:04:43 PM PST by The Antiyuppie ("When small men cast long shadows, then it is very late in the day.")
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To: Yo-Yo

OK, I stand corrected. Still, if I had to go up against 1000 of China or Russia’s latest with their pilots I’d rather have 1000 of the latest F-15/F-18s than 150 F-35s.


14 posted on 02/22/2013 7:07:57 PM PST by Notary Sojac (Ut veniant omnes)
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To: The Antiyuppie

Absolutely. We are now the Germans with a hundred Tiger tanks facing our enemies with a thousand M-4 Shermans. Not where I want to be.


15 posted on 02/22/2013 7:10:06 PM PST by Notary Sojac (Ut veniant omnes)
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To: Yo-Yo

I hate this plane. I dont understand how or why unit costs have exploded. My guess as to why unit cost hyper inflation happens in the prime bidder on the contracts must outsource every single part down to the smallest. I would guess every one of the outsourced companies oursource everything else to a point where every single part is inspected and slightly turned through a super complex supply chain that only exists to supply one project.

I dont care if this is the greatest attack aircraft of all time, I dont think we can afford it, that its high cost is proof that we cannot make our own stuff in america any more.

I bet this F-35 project produces about the same number of units that the f-22 project. I dont see any need to lay down anymore keels for CVNs because we will not have the number of aircraft to make them a threat. We wont need many future pilots eather because we just wont have seats for them. I find to unbeliveable that we used to do fly offs to see who would win contracts, not we bribe contractors to produce aircraft with over inflated contracts.

Who would like to be the first guy to crash one? How can we afford to lose one in combat. I respected the B-2 price for the reason it was a first strike nuke bomber that could lay waste to nations.....I just dont see that kind of fire power here.
We became weak when we started to belive our own movies. Gosh just look at how the tababan wasted the Marine CO and his crew chief and 5 hornets in a desert rat attack months back.... 10 dirt bags and a crew served weapon in the back of a $500 pickup truck....We better spend billions on ABGD.


16 posted on 02/22/2013 7:13:21 PM PST by 3clean
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To: 3clean
If the trend continues, in another 25 years, we'll have just one fighter, and one bomber, in the USAF.

Not one type.

One airframe each.

They'll be GREAT planes. Probably able to outfight the Millenium Falcon.

But if those two planes go down, we could lose air superiority to a couple of beat out MiG 21s.

17 posted on 02/22/2013 7:28:00 PM PST by Notary Sojac (Ut veniant omnes)
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To: Yo-Yo

To me the F-35 is the modern day version of the F-3 Demon.


18 posted on 02/22/2013 7:30:41 PM PST by MCF
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To: Notary Sojac

Reminds me a an old Air Force joke I heard many years ago during the cold war. In the future, the USA will develop a fighter that can single handedly destroy the entire Soviet fighter force.... and we will only be able to afford one of them!


19 posted on 02/22/2013 7:56:00 PM PST by SDShack (0zer0care = "The Final Solution" - Socialized Euthanasia Healthcare)
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To: Yo-Yo

What do you expect for a mere $300M a copy for a single engine fighter.

“In February 2011, the Pentagon put a price of $207.6 million for each of the 32 aircraft to be acquired in FY2012, rising to $304.15 million ($9,732.8/32) if its share of RDT&E spending is included.”


20 posted on 02/22/2013 7:56:18 PM PST by maddog55 (America Rising.... Civil War II)
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To: Yo-Yo
somewhere, PukinDog is laughing...
21 posted on 02/22/2013 7:58:51 PM PST by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: Chode

Is he still around here?

As to manufacturing this fighter and the aerospace industry, the crazy costs that are created because of outsourcing is WHY elon mush desided to build everything in-house for SPACE-X.... Lockheed is a joke, the last man in the drug peddelers chain jacking up the costs and double jacking the drug addicts in the pentagon. Our brass have lost there brass and sell out for brass. We are done.

I also see the new Posidon project a total joke too.

Any one read time this week where they listed the current costs of projects under development and the unit prices? How about the V-22 costing $122 million a copy! I could knock one down as it comes into a LZ with a brick! $122 million for the cost of a few bricks. A whole other screwed up program in the USAFs new radar program! I think Lockheed is prime contractor on that one too.


22 posted on 02/22/2013 8:25:53 PM PST by 3clean
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To: Yo-Yo
Not quite the same thing. The cheaper, ligher, smaller plane can't carry the fuel or weapons to prevail in a real fight.

That's not the story as told about John Boyd and the F-16. By building it light, it ended up with great range and great maneuverability and decent firepower.

23 posted on 02/22/2013 8:35:51 PM PST by slowhandluke (It's hard to be cynical enough in this age.)
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To: 3clean; Chode
Pukin unfortunately left during the silly purges on FR some years back. Unfortunate since he knew his stuff.

I'm sure he must be laughing, and laughing hard.

24 posted on 02/22/2013 8:59:37 PM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: 3clean
nope, long gone... he didn't think much of the 35 at all
25 posted on 02/22/2013 9:00:14 PM PST by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: spetznaz
yup, always liked PD...
26 posted on 02/22/2013 9:04:23 PM PST by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: slowhandluke; Yo-Yo
Compare the F-15 to the F-16. Metrics? Use range, weapons load, radar. Which is one used as an air-superiority fighter, and yet still manages (in its E variant) to do a superb A2G job.

The only advantages the F-16 has are cost (a smaller single-engine jet is cheaper to maintain than a larger twin-engine plane), RCS (the typical F-16 will have a smaller radar cross section than a typical F-15, although this is a moot point since the 'smaller' RCS of the F-16 will still stand out BIG on any modern radar operated by the US, its allies, Russia, China, etc), and WVR maneuverability (although, again, this is a moot point since the F-15 can do a lot in WVR, and with the advent of helmet-slaved IIR-missiles WVR is basically a death zone since looks do kill).

Thus, the only real advantage an F-16 has over the F-15 is cost (purchase, maintenance, life costs, you name it). A Viper is cheaper than an Eagle. The F-16 is probably a better multi-role fighter when looked at from a bang-for-buck angle, since the typical F-16 will do a good job in every area A2A/A2G. The F-15, on the other hand, is an amazing air-superiority fighter in its 15C format, and an amazing air-to-ground pounder in its 15E format, but those superlative abilities come at a higher cost.

However, the F-15 does have real advantages over the F-16, such as significantly greater combat range, a considerably bigger radar, FAR greater ability to carry more weaponry, speed (both climb and flat), altitude (can have an advantage in certain BVR engagements). The US, Israel and Japan use F-15s for air-superiority, even though they have F-16s (in Japan's case the F-16s bigger cousin, the F-2). There is a reason for that.

Bottom line - if you have the money the F-15 is definitely better than the 16. If you are on a budget and are out for cost-effectiveness, and you will likely be part of a coalition should a capable country attack you, the F-16 is the choice for you.

27 posted on 02/22/2013 9:13:25 PM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: Notary Sojac

“A cheaper, lighter, smaller plane flown by a really top notch pilot can beat a bigger, more complex plane almost every time. Look at the Red Flag/Top Gun instructors in F-5s who beat the bigger costlier birds time and time again.”

You don’t have the slightest idea of what you are talking about. Where do some of you people come up with this nonsense?


28 posted on 02/22/2013 9:20:32 PM PST by oldbill
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To: spetznaz
Compare the F-15 to the F-16. Metrics?

Which was supposed to be replaced by F-22 and F-35 metrics.

Didn't turn out quite the way they thought, but that was the plan.

29 posted on 02/22/2013 9:57:04 PM PST by Yo-Yo
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To: Yo-Yo

When the engineering is perfected they’re obsolete.


30 posted on 02/22/2013 10:12:52 PM PST by clearcarbon
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To: Chode

How about Criminal number 13F, is he still kicking?


31 posted on 02/23/2013 3:59:00 AM PST by 3clean
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To: oldbill
OK, I'm ignorant.

Do you as a non-ignorant freeper still want to fly ONE F-35 against three or four of the best the enemy can come up with, or would you rather have three or four of the latest F-15 or F-18s with well trained American pilots?

32 posted on 02/23/2013 5:19:23 AM PST by Notary Sojac (Ut veniant omnes)
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To: 3clean
don't know... haven't seen the name in awhile
33 posted on 02/23/2013 6:05:57 AM PST by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: Notary Sojac

“Do you as a non-ignorant freeper still want to fly ONE F-35 against three or four of the best the enemy can come up with, or would you rather have three or four of the latest F-15 or F-18s with well trained American pilots?”

Yes, because I’ve been there and done that. You haven’t.

Being told that you and your flight of four F-16s are already dead as you are still pulling your gear up from a distant F-22 opponent is not a confidence-building measure.

I can forgive your ignorance because you don’t know what you are talking about. Unfortunately, we have people similarly ignorant in Congress and the media making similar stupid claims who themselves will never be in harm’s way.


34 posted on 02/23/2013 8:39:02 AM PST by oldbill
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