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Waco 20 Years Later: The ATF Raid
Fox 4 ^ | 2/25/13 | Richard Ray

Posted on 02/27/2013 8:47:19 AM PST by Sybeck1

Edited on 02/27/2013 9:42:50 AM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]

February 28, 1993, a raid by agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms sparked the biggest firefight in the history of American law enforcement and continued debate 20 years later. Two agents who were there say the disastrous raid led to fundamental changes in ATF.


(Excerpt) Read more at myfoxdfw.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: banglist; waco
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Nothing from the people inside
1 posted on 02/27/2013 8:47:29 AM PST by Sybeck1
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To: Sybeck1

“They were throwing grenades out the window”

I call BS on that one.


2 posted on 02/27/2013 8:49:28 AM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Sybeck1

As far as I am concerned, ANYONE associated with any agency of the US Government that was in attendance at WACO when they set fire to the compound and murdered dozens of children, women, and men, should be in prison for murder.


3 posted on 02/27/2013 8:49:50 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: driftdiver

I would not believe anything anyone from the ATF says. They, the agency is an anachronism from times gone by. It should not exist, period.


4 posted on 02/27/2013 8:51:58 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: Sybeck1
YOUTUBE: The F.L.I.R. Project

How the FBI's Hostage Roasting Team got its name.

5 posted on 02/27/2013 8:52:13 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum ("Somebody has to be courageous enough to stand up to the bullies." --Dr. Ben Carson)
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To: Sybeck1

Dead men tell no tales, and that’s what concerns me about the pliant media. These things can and likely will happen to individuals and small groups across the nation in the near future with Obama and his ilk trying to muster an internal army of his own choosing.

We may be pinned down, outgunned, and we can call 911 for help and plead to have the federales called off, but those calls will likely fall on deaf ears and never be made public. We’ll be branded “psychopaths” with “arsenals” who murdered agents “in cold blood.”


6 posted on 02/27/2013 8:53:12 AM PST by rarestia (It's time to water the Tree of Liberty.)
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To: Gaffer
What happened to the doors? They were being held for evidence, but then they disappeared.

When ATF can produce the missing doors, then I might be willing to listen to the rest of what they have to say.

7 posted on 02/27/2013 8:53:12 AM PST by Oberon (Big Brutha Be Watchin'.)
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To: Gaffer

didn’t those four ATF agents take shots the back of the head rather than the front, implying they were shot by their own men?


8 posted on 02/27/2013 8:53:37 AM PST by Bulwyf
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To: Bulwyf; Oberon

It is difficult to prove at this point. In any case where one side of an argument/hostility is completely dead, it only remains for the winning side to lie their asses off in their favor.

The fact that they can’t even lie well speaks VOLUMES! Incompetent, showboating, murdering bureaucrats with itchy trigger fingers....

I said earlier about wishing all connected on the government side were in prison....scratch that..they should have been lined up against the rubble and shot.


9 posted on 02/27/2013 8:57:02 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: Sybeck1

Lots of bullsh*t in that incredibly one-sided article.

History? Or, propaganda? You decide.


10 posted on 02/27/2013 8:57:53 AM PST by Skepolitic
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To: Sybeck1
In coming weeks we will hear from others who were inside the compound during the siege and fire, with a very different take on what happened there.

I hope so, because that was one huge mass of misinformation.

Waco was a lesson learned for the gov't. After that the militia grew like wildfire in a drought. They know the American people are armed and have a tolerance level. They depend on that tolerance level by gradually compromising each generation a little more than the last, so that they can win without firing a shot.

11 posted on 02/27/2013 8:58:49 AM PST by EyeSalveRich (lock and load)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Free
Barbeque
Inside

After
The
Fire


12 posted on 02/27/2013 8:59:00 AM PST by Skepolitic
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To: driftdiver
I watched the LIVE coverage from the 1st day..I never saw grenades thrown out of windows...

The "talk radio" guy then was Ron Engleman, still alive somewhere, I presume..

..he talked to Koresh directly

I would think that he should be asked what happened...

13 posted on 02/27/2013 9:02:37 AM PST by B.O. Plenty (Give war a chance........)
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To: Sybeck1

ATF storms the buildings for no reason.

People in building try and defend themselves.

People is building were burned alive.....ATF that showed them.


14 posted on 02/27/2013 9:03:48 AM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Sybeck1
This documentary told a very different story:


15 posted on 02/27/2013 9:04:16 AM PST by cartan
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To: Sybeck1

“These agents were murdered and they never got the true respect that they deserve.”

Cry me a river!


16 posted on 02/27/2013 9:05:06 AM PST by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: Sybeck1

I wonder if Bill Clinton will have anything to say about Sandy Hook today.


17 posted on 02/27/2013 9:05:06 AM PST by cdcdawg
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Bought the movie when it came out, FLIR is rather damning to EVERYTHING the Government says about this Execution of Women and Children. They should all rot in Prison and for sure they will Rot IN HELL.


18 posted on 02/27/2013 9:05:37 AM PST by eyeamok
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To: Sybeck1

Anyone who knows anything about this raid can easily spot at least a dozen untruths in this account.


19 posted on 02/27/2013 9:06:38 AM PST by skeeter
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To: Gaffer

If this happens again, these jack booted thugs better be taking fire from all sides.


20 posted on 02/27/2013 9:07:45 AM PST by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: Sybeck1

Yeah, and the gov’t is so innocent in all of this that they bull dozed the entire site, destroying evidence only 2 weeks after the event.


21 posted on 02/27/2013 9:07:57 AM PST by Obama_Is_Sabotaging_America (PRISON AT BENGHAZI?????)
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To: Sybeck1

From what I have read the ATF had several chances to arrest Koresh outside the compound, and once when they managed to get inside before the final assault.

It appears the ATF wanted to make this a “showcase” raid to strike fear in other Americans.

Kind of like the “crucify” comment from a former fed not long ago.


22 posted on 02/27/2013 9:08:11 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (THE SOUND OF MUSIC at the POTEET THEATRE in OKC! See our murals before they are painted over!)
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To: Bulwyf

No. There’s one key video which clearly shows an agent being shot thru a wall. Holes start appearing in the wall near him, then one in front of him (he’s facing the wall) and he falls over.


23 posted on 02/27/2013 9:10:04 AM PST by ctdonath2 (3% of the population perpetrates >50% of homicides...but gun control advocates blame metal boxes.)
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To: driftdiver
They were throwing grenades out the window” I call BS on that one.

Check all the pictures and videos, they were special grnades that did not break the windows in any of the vehicles.

24 posted on 02/27/2013 9:11:10 AM PST by OSHA (One despises and wants to destroy the United States, the other is a dead terrorist.)
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To: Sybeck1

“The biggest thing that weighs on my mind is we cannot forget the four agents that were murdered that day.”

Oh, and by the way, there were kids killed too. Just in case anyone might care.


25 posted on 02/27/2013 9:14:28 AM PST by DaxtonBrown (http://www.futurnamics.com/reid.php)
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To: Sybeck1
Nothing from the people inside

From the article: "In coming weeks we will hear from others who were inside the compound during the siege and fire, with a very different take on what happened there."

26 posted on 02/27/2013 9:15:55 AM PST by IYAS9YAS (Rose, there's a Messerschmitt in the kitchen. Clean it up, will ya?)
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To: Sybeck1

Twenty years later, and we’re still getting this lily-livered, mealy-mouthed bullsh*t from the crowd of losers who murdered the entire compound of Branch Davidians and never did so much as a minute of time for any of it.

The whole thing is a black stain on the history of the past thirty years.


27 posted on 02/27/2013 9:15:55 AM PST by Jack Hammer
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To: Gaffer

I remember reading years ago about those four agents being tied to the Clintons during their arkansas years. The reason they were put up front and center was to be rid of them, but I cannot attest to that as I don’t even remember the source now.


28 posted on 02/27/2013 9:16:08 AM PST by Bulwyf
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To: Sybeck1
IIRC, the account we are seeing here is close to pure BS. Maybe they should have had the guys in the house down the road walk over there and communicate with them--the ones posing as "college students" who were listening in via wiretap.

As to who fired first, the missing door (yep, the BATF managed to lose the steel door) would have showed who fired what when, and may well have been the key piece of evidence proving the Davidians were attacked.

Something about shooting form helicopters, burning the building to hide the downward bullet holes from the overflights, and a host of other irregularities which have become SOP--like bulldozing the evidence within a week or two.

CNN even did their part during the congressional hearings, broadcasting the 5 minutes of Democrat "inquiry" and following that with 5 minutes of commercials designed to cover up the 5 minutes of questions from the Republican side of the aisle.

The hearings were available on C-SPAN, but only what they could fit in at the end of the normal activities of the House--which ended somewhere between 6PM and midnight, (a greater spread than a VHS tape could cover, by the time any hearing was broadcast) so you had to stay up to 3 AM on a weekday to watch.

At the time, this was one of the biggest whitewash jobs in US history.

Now, on the anniversary of the massacre, the meme is being pushed that the government did no wrong, that the "right wing wackos were all at fault', and not the government for assaulting a church group in their home.

Muslims aren't the only ones who burn churches with the people inside.

29 posted on 02/27/2013 9:17:36 AM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing)
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To: Sybeck1

It was *not* “the biggest firefight in the history of American law enforcement”.

The Jayuya Uprising on October 30th, in Puerto Rico, which was so violent that Truman declared martial law, after a whole bunch of killing by and of police and other government officials, sent in the Army and Air Force, who machine gunned rooftops in revolting villages.

The Tulsa race riot of March, 1921, with officially 39 to 300 dead, 800 injured, 35 city blocks burned.

The Watts riots of 1967. 34 people were dead, more than 2,000 injured, and almost 4,000 arrested.


30 posted on 02/27/2013 9:17:36 AM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy (Best WoT news at rantburg.com)
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To: svcw

Not all that many were burned alive. Many were killed by the heavy concentration of CS tear gas which suffocated them or by the Phasogen gas once the fire started.


31 posted on 02/27/2013 9:18:11 AM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Sybeck1

Under-discussed: between Waco and Ruby Ridge, the government never tried such high profile aggressive “dynamic entry” stunts again. The lesson was learned about cocky assaults on armed citizens.

Closest things we’ve seen were kidnapping of Elian Gonzales (a narrow instance targeting an unarmed little boy) and the NOLA confiscations (cut short by internal police consternation).

Now, still aware of those lessons, the current administration seeks to disarm the populace accordingly. The recent flurry of purchases has made clear this is not a good plan.


32 posted on 02/27/2013 9:18:37 AM PST by ctdonath2 (3% of the population perpetrates >50% of homicides...but gun control advocates blame metal boxes.)
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To: Sybeck1

My mom was living in Waco when this happened. She saw the helicopters bringing in the wounded agents to the hospital by her house. It seems like I remember hearing about a mailman being tipped off about the raid and the mailman was a member of the group. I live in Dallas and I remember how the news kept talking about how Koresh was a child molester who was holding people there against their will in his cult.


33 posted on 02/27/2013 9:19:49 AM PST by gop4lyf (Are we no longer in that awkward time? Or is it still too early?)
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To: Gaffer

See tagline.


34 posted on 02/27/2013 9:21:42 AM PST by Uncle Miltie (Due Process 2013: "Burn the M*****-F***er Down!")
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To: Sybeck1
"These agents were murdered and they never got the true respect that they deserve."

Certainly someone could have pissed on their graves. But the ATF survived to sell arms to the Mexican drug cartels and hundred of people were killed as a result.

35 posted on 02/27/2013 9:22:13 AM PST by School of Rational Thought (Fun for women ages 21 through 35)
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To: Sybeck1

my theory on waco that I can never prove: Hillary ordered it. And could Vince Foster have somehow been involved and felt horrible guilt later?


36 posted on 02/27/2013 9:24:34 AM PST by isom35
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To: Sybeck1

I have seen many pictures from this firefight. I find it amazing that the Davidians could mount such a firefight, with .50 cal rifles and grenades, and leave the glass intact in all the vehicles the Feds were hiding behind. The amount of training to do that is surely impressive.

This story represents Official Reality at its best.


37 posted on 02/27/2013 9:24:39 AM PST by DBrow
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To: eyeamok
Bought the movie when it came out

So did I.

38 posted on 02/27/2013 9:25:55 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum ("Somebody has to be courageous enough to stand up to the bullies." --Dr. Ben Carson)
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To: gop4lyf

“I live in Dallas and I remember how the news kept talking about how Koresh was a child molester who was holding people there against their will in his cult.”

Yes Janet Reno decided to put that out to garner public support.


39 posted on 02/27/2013 9:25:55 AM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: ctdonath2

This is the initial Feb 28th raid anniversary not the April 19th anniversary.


40 posted on 02/27/2013 9:26:53 AM PST by Justa
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To: Sybeck1
It was another Dick Rogers operation oversaw by Jamie Gorelick. Yeah, the idiot on the 9/11 commission and Reno/Holder lackey.

The leadership from that raid should have been in the fire themselves.

41 posted on 02/27/2013 9:29:26 AM PST by Darren McCarty (If most people were more than keyboard warriors, we might have won the election)
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To: Sybeck1

Bump for later


42 posted on 02/27/2013 9:29:36 AM PST by hattend (Firearms and ammunition...the only growing industries under the Obama regime.)
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To: Sybeck1

I have always been fairly conservative, but this incident and Ruby Ridge really sent me over the edge. Both of these events were nothing but political stunts performed by the ATF and the FBI ...and I will say nothing more as we are bieng monitored by the same criminal elements as before


43 posted on 02/27/2013 9:29:57 AM PST by dirtymac (Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country.)
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To: Sybeck1

The Branch Davidians did not have grenades and they did not have any .50 caliber weapons. They also didn’t have any anti-tank weapons as the media said they did and that’s a shame given that they could have used them.


44 posted on 02/27/2013 9:31:55 AM PST by MeganC (Liberals fool people by walking upright.)
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To: hattend

me too...


45 posted on 02/27/2013 9:34:53 AM PST by joe fonebone (The clueless... they walk among us, and they vote...)
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To: dirtymac

“Both of these events were nothing but political stunts performed by the ATF and the FBI”

Sorry but I disagree, to call these political stunts grossly understates the seriousness of the event.


46 posted on 02/27/2013 9:35:52 AM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Sybeck1

Still the largest mass murder in U.S. history.


47 posted on 02/27/2013 9:37:34 AM PST by Starstruck (I need a 30 round magazine because liberal whine gives me a buzz.)
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To: driftdiver

Oh, well instead of burning alive they were chocked to death......


48 posted on 02/27/2013 9:37:59 AM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

Doesn’t the 1967 Detroit riots beat Watts?


49 posted on 02/27/2013 9:39:56 AM PST by SJSAMPLE
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To: MeganC
The Branch Davidians were alleged to have illegally converted a number of AR-15 rifles to accept the M-16 fire control parts, hence BATF's role in the raid.

Can't recall ever seeing evidence that supports that, so I consider it as much a rumor as these new "grenades" that have been added to spice-up the story.

50 posted on 02/27/2013 9:40:40 AM PST by Charles Martel (Endeavor to persevere...)
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