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Officer kills man who refused to give up gun, chief says (TX)
KXAN ^ | March 1, 2013 | Sophia Beausoleil

Posted on 03/01/2013 2:06:59 PM PST by bgill

The man had called police saying that he had just shot and killed dog that he said had was attacking him. The dispatcher asked the man to return to his home and let police take over once they arrived, Acevedo said. When the officer arrived, the man had the semiautomatic pistol tucked into his waistband, the chief said.

The man was told to give up the gun, but instead drew it on the officer, Acevedo said. The officer then drew his gun and fired. He was pronounced dead around 7:45 a.m., Acevedo said.

(Excerpt) Read more at kxan.com ...


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: guncontrol; officershooting; secondamendment; suicidebycop
The rumors claim the man shot the dog claiming it was attacking him, called the police and the dispatch told him to put the gun inside but he refused. He was outside when the officer arrived and was asked to give the officer the gun while being questions. Instead, the neighbors say, he aimed the gun at the officer.

Sounds suspiciously like suicide by cop and the sorry scum used the dog to get the cops out there.

1 posted on 03/01/2013 2:07:05 PM PST by bgill
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To: bgill

I would agree.
It is not uncommon for an officer to ask someone who is showing their gun to put it down on the ground or hand it to the officer.
They don’t have to, but it is still common however you do not point it at the officer without consequences.


2 posted on 03/01/2013 2:19:25 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: bgill

Hmmm. Very suspicious.

Perhaps the cop was upset that the dog was already shot, so he fired in retaliation?


3 posted on 03/01/2013 2:20:44 PM PST by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: bgill

“that he said had was”

My brain skipped a beat there,,,,,.....


4 posted on 03/01/2013 2:23:55 PM PST by Dr. Bogus Pachysandra ( Ya can't pick up a turd by the clean end!)
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To: bgill

Only cops can shoot dogs....


5 posted on 03/01/2013 2:25:01 PM PST by expat2
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To: svcw

All my legal training has come from watching tv...but, I’m pretty sure if a cop tels you to put the gun down, you have to.

He will say its a lawful order, for his safety, until he can assess the situation and see who the good guys/bad guys are.


6 posted on 03/01/2013 2:30:13 PM PST by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: bgill

He took advantage of Texas’ Stand Your Ground Law, but just for a few seconds.

The lesson may be that it is a good idea to drop your weapon when ordered to by a cop.


7 posted on 03/01/2013 2:31:58 PM PST by OKRA2012
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To: lacrew
All my legal training has come from watching tv...but, I’m pretty sure if a cop tels you to put the gun down, you have to.

Unless he's in your house without a warrant or permission...

8 posted on 03/01/2013 2:32:36 PM PST by EricT. (The Second Amendment is Tyrant Control.)
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To: bgill

Drew on the officer? Bad choice.

The headline makes it look like gun confiscation.

I guess that’s next year’s multiple headlines...


9 posted on 03/01/2013 2:37:09 PM PST by null and void (Gun confiscation enables tyranny. Don't enable tyranny.)
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To: bgill

Drawing on a cop.
Sounds like he was nuts or suicidal. The cop wasn’t trying to confiscate it, he asked him to put it inside.


10 posted on 03/01/2013 2:59:47 PM PST by mnehring
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To: bgill

The idea that merely having a gun is a threat to an officer is over the line, but no one notices. Cops have guns and can stick them in your face, but if you react, THEY are threatened. IF the guy wasn’t acting in a threatening way, he shouldn’t have had to remove his gun. If he WAS acting in a threatening way, the cop should have held him at gunpoint, since he was armed. So the fact that the cop had his own gun holstered, while the guy was armed, meant the cop DID NOT feel any threat, but was merely disarming a civilian for the sake of disarming a civilian.

If an argument about this completely illegal order then occured, and then the angry citizen complied with the illegally demanding cop by removing his gun from its carry position, well then, at that moment the cop could say that “the angry man drew his gun” and so the cop shot him.

Wake up people, this civilian was shot dead after freely calling the cops on his own, and now he’s dead and slandered and the cop is praised without anyone thinking things through. This madness is getting WAY out of control - badges should not come with “007” engraved on them, and civilians should not be disarmed by police without probable cause. JUST BEING ARMED in the presence of the police is NOT A CRIME OR A THREAT to the police.


11 posted on 03/01/2013 3:16:26 PM PST by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
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To: Talisker

I was kind of thinking along your lines also, but it’s really hard to tell from the limited info in the story.
The shooter (the cop) only has 3 years experience so he might still be a little green as far as knowing when he was facing a real threat or creating one himself.


12 posted on 03/01/2013 3:25:01 PM PST by HEM
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To: bgill
The smart thing to do is what the officer wants you to do. I carry on a permit. Anytime and every time an officer asks me for my ID or personal information I hand him my drivers license and permit tell him that I'm armed and ask what he would like me to do.
It is very simple, you live longer that way. You are also respecting the LEO and that goes a log ways with them. In this state I'm not even required to show them my permit or tell them that I'm armed until they ask me but I always tell them at first contact. Except in San Francisco I have never had a bad reaction from LEO’s. In SF if you know how to say firearm or ever seen on in person you will have a problem. They have the idea that they can make up gun laws as they see fit.
13 posted on 03/01/2013 3:37:17 PM PST by oldenuff2no
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To: lacrew
"He will say its a lawful order, for his safety, until he can assess the situation and see who the good guys/bad guys are."

On public property, maybe, on my property, no. If he feels uncomfortable with me having a possession of a weapon while I am on my property he is welcome to leave, unless he has a warrant for my arrest.

14 posted on 03/01/2013 3:41:50 PM PST by Mad Dawgg (If you're going to deny my 1st Amendment rights then I must proceed to the 2nd one...)
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To: Talisker
JUST BEING ARMED in the presence of the police is NOT A CRIME OR A THREAT to the police

Pointing a weapon at someone can get you injured or killed.

From the article; "When an officer tries to secure a weapon, you cannot draw and aim at an officer and not expect that officer to defend himself," Acevedo said.

A woman who calls herself Lena lives three houses down from where the shooting happened. She walked outside and witnessed the confrontation.

"Him and the guy were in close proximity," said Lena. "And he had no other choice but to protect himself. The guy didn't want to put the gun down."

15 posted on 03/01/2013 3:53:09 PM PST by Alaska Wolf (I)
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To: Responsibility2nd

LOL!

Now that there’s funny!


16 posted on 03/01/2013 3:54:00 PM PST by Uncle Miltie (Due Process 2013: "Burn the M*****-F***er Down!")
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To: Talisker

talisker,
an excellent post.


17 posted on 03/01/2013 3:54:11 PM PST by hoosierham (Freedom isn't free)
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To: Talisker

BTTT. What you said.

The cop is innocent until proven guilty; but there ought to be a thorough review and let the law proceed as necessary.


18 posted on 03/01/2013 4:00:08 PM PST by Uncle Miltie (Due Process 2013: "Burn the M*****-F***er Down!")
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To: Mad Dawgg

Well if he is performing his duties (responding to a call, chasing a guy, investigating something suspicious, whatever), he can do all kinds of stuff on your property - trespass, for example. And while he’s trespassing, he can certainly tell you to put your gun down.

Again, my legal degree came out of a Cracker Jack box...but a cop does not even need a warrant to cuff you and detain you on the scene, if he is trying to sort out a situation.

Not saying its right or wrong, but that’s the way it is.


19 posted on 03/01/2013 4:02:16 PM PST by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: Talisker

Nope, KEYE just now reported on tv the neighbors are siding with the cop. They are confirming the rumors I’d heard earlier that the guy pointed the gun at the officer causing the officer to pull out his gun. They faced off adn the guy lost.

I still suspect it was probably suicide by cop and the poor dog paid the price.


20 posted on 03/01/2013 4:06:22 PM PST by bgill
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To: Alaska Wolf
Pointing a weapon at someone can get you injured or killed.

Agreed.

And I'm all for cops being able to protect their lives to the MAXIMUM DEGREE.

But there's the deal - I'm also for a free people to be able to protecct THEIR lives to the MAXIMUM DEGREE.

See, as it stand right now, you as a non-cop have to jump through hoops before the law won't arrest andd convict you for self-defense.

But a cop? A cop can LITERALLY stand in front of you, with you unarmed, and shoot you dead, and just say he was afraid. That's it. No evidence, just his word. You could be cuffed and on the ground, and he'll still get away with it. AND he'll get a paid vaccation and probably a promotion.

I say, even it up. There is NO LEGAL JUSTIFICATION ffor the standards of self-defense of one's life to be different between a cop, and a civilian/natural person/non-cop.

ZERO.

You want to even up the laws, and get rid of gun control altogether, and make it saffe for Americans to carry and use firearms without the law unfairly and disproportionately punishing them?

Fine - here's the one-stop solution: make the standards for lethal force self-defense EQUAL betweeen the police and the people. That one thing will do it - and there is no legal OR moral reason why the life of a police officer should be MORE protected than the life of a non-police, law abiding citizen.

NONE.

21 posted on 03/01/2013 4:14:31 PM PST by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
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To: oldenuff2no
The smart thing to do is what the officer wants you to do.

That is unfortunately correct. Cops want to be in full control of the situation.
An unknown citizen with a gun, for the cop means one more chance of getting shot in the back.
Remember who he usually deals with. He doesn't know you're a good guy. He can't chance it.
The cop, even if he's a jerk, has authority. Lethal authority.
If you pull a gun on a cop, even if you're in the right, you'll either be dead or in a world of hurt.
Don't be a hothead. Stay calm, be polite, stay alive and sort out any differences at the station with your lawyer in tow.

Until CWII starts, we are still civilians and civilian rules of engagement apply.

22 posted on 03/01/2013 4:15:09 PM PST by BitWielder1 (Corporate Profits are better than Government Waste)
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To: oldenuff2no
The smart thing to do is what the officer wants you to do.

That is unfortunately correct. Cops want to be in full control of the situation.
An unknown citizen with a gun, for the cop means one more chance of getting shot in the back.
Remember who he usually deals with. He doesn't know you're a good guy. He can't chance it.
The cop, even if he's a jerk, has authority. Lethal authority.
If you pull a gun on a cop, even if you're in the right, you'll either be dead or in a world of hurt.
Don't be a hothead. Stay calm, be polite, stay alive and sort out any differences at the station with your lawyer in tow.

23 posted on 03/01/2013 4:15:59 PM PST by BitWielder1 (Corporate Profits are better than Government Waste)
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To: bgill

If I was armed and a cop asked me for the gun I’d put my hands over my head and say “The gun is in my belt. You take it. I’m not going to pull it out and give you a reason to kill me and my dog.”


24 posted on 03/01/2013 4:16:22 PM PST by Terry Mross (How long before America is gone?)
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The Austin Police Department has announced that Officer Jonathan Whitted was the officer who shot and killed a man in North Austin on Friday morning. He has worked for the department since September 2009, officials said.

The victim, John Schaefer, 70, was an instructor for the Austin Rifle Club.

......

Acevedo said video dashboard cameras were operating and had captured the incident.
end snips

CLICK

25 posted on 03/01/2013 4:18:47 PM PST by deport
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To: Talisker
See, as it stand right now, you as a non-cop have to jump through hoops before the law won't arrest andd convict you for self-defense.

You have to be arrested, indicted, tried and convicted of a crime. It's been that way for as long as I can remember.

> You could be cuffed and on the ground, and he'll still get away with it. AND he'll get a paid vaccation and probably a promotion.

http://www.chron.com/opinion/editorials/article/Justice-served-Verdict-shows-police-not-immune-1651707.php

get rid of gun control altogether

I've advocated that for decades. I live in a state where permits are not required for concealed carry.

there is no legal OR moral reason why the life of a police officer should be MORE protected than the life of a non-police, law abiding citizen

The difference being that law abiding citizens rarely have to deal with drugged up psychos, scum-of-the-earth garbage and criminal dregs of society. Life isn't fair.

26 posted on 03/01/2013 4:54:57 PM PST by Alaska Wolf (I)
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To: Dr. Bogus Pachysandra

“Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?” — the ultimate Internet answer


27 posted on 03/01/2013 5:52:33 PM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy (Best WoT news at rantburg.com)
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To: Talisker

“From the article; “When an officer tries to secure a weapon, you cannot draw and aim at an officer and not expect that officer to defend himself,” Acevedo said.

A woman who calls herself Lena lives three houses down from where the shooting happened. She walked outside and witnessed the confrontation.

“Him and the guy were in close proximity,” said Lena. “And he had no other choice but to protect himself. The guy didn’t want to put the gun down.”’

“JUST BEING ARMED in the presence of the police is NOT A CRIME OR A THREAT to the police.” But drawing the gun on the cop sure as hell is. Until I see evidence to the contrary, good job officer.


28 posted on 03/01/2013 6:07:07 PM PST by Rannug ("God has given it to me, let him who touches it beware.")
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To: deport

This story adds a bit of uncertainty to the situation.


29 posted on 03/01/2013 6:11:33 PM PST by Eagles6 (Valley Forge Redux)
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To: lacrew
"Well if he is performing his duties (responding to a call, chasing a guy, investigating something suspicious, whatever), he can do all kinds of stuff on your property - trespass, for example. And while he’s trespassing, he can certainly tell you to put your gun down."

Well maybe some other town but the cops are walking on eggshells here. Several are in jail and the former Chief opted for early retirement so he could keep his pension. See we had a little drug ring/fence operation going on in the dept. It had been for years. After that mess was outed there was an unofficial meeting wherein those cops left on the force attended as well as a few townsfolk. Let's just say around here the cops answer to the public and address the citizens with respect. If they don't they won't be be working on the force very long.

We are weeding out the bad ones and replacing them with people who know they are there to serve the town and its people, not the other way around.

30 posted on 03/01/2013 6:12:51 PM PST by Mad Dawgg (If you're going to deny my 1st Amendment rights then I must proceed to the 2nd one...)
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To: lacrew

As a former LEO I’ll just speak from experience... if an officer is dispatched to a location where a perp has already discharged a firearm and appeara to be hostile the officer has every right to tell him to put ithe weapon down for his own personal safety while he investigates the situation. Remove the weapon, cuff the Suspect and put him in the back of your squad car while you run his name for warrants and priors, any hits call backup, then interview witnesses after they arrive...: )


31 posted on 03/01/2013 6:34:17 PM PST by jsanders2001
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To: jsanders2001

Oh almost forgot, if the perp won’t relinquish his weapon and fires at, fond cover and double tap the chest and send one to the head...; )


32 posted on 03/01/2013 6:36:50 PM PST by jsanders2001
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To: jsanders2001

Oh almost forgot, if the perp won’t relinquish his weapon and fires at you, find cover and double tap the chest and send one to the head...; )


33 posted on 03/01/2013 6:38:44 PM PST by jsanders2001
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To: Talisker
From the article: "Schaefer had called police saying he had just shot and killed a dog. Schaefer said the dog had attacked him. The dispatcher asked him to return to his home and let police take over once they arrived, Acevedo said. When the officer arrived, Schaefer had the semiautomatic pistol tucked into his waistband, the chief said."

From your post: So the fact that the cop had his own gun holstered, while the guy was armed, meant the cop DID NOT feel any threat, but was merely disarming a civilian for the sake of disarming a civilian.


Based on the article and your comments - I'd say bullseye to your comment. According to this story, there was nothing about John Schaefer that was threatening. He apparently was taking his 2nd Amendment rights seriously and did not want to surrender the gun. He could have held up his arms and surrendered and allowed the officer to take his gun. He could have simply refused, but not drawn. At that point, if the officer insisted, he could have turned and walked back into his house. Would the officer have shot him in the back ?

Government, for the most part, no longer abides by the the 2nd Amendment.
34 posted on 03/01/2013 6:42:54 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: Talisker
If an argument about this completely illegal order then occured, and then the angry citizen complied with the illegally demanding cop by removing his gun from its carry position, well then, at that moment the cop could say that “the angry man drew his gun” and so the cop shot him.

Wake up people, this civilian was shot dead after freely calling the cops on his own, and now he’s dead and slandered and the cop is praised without anyone thinking things through. This madness is getting WAY out of control - badges should not come with “007” engraved on them, and civilians should not be disarmed by police without probable cause. JUST BEING ARMED in the presence of the police is NOT A CRIME OR A THREAT to the police.

We'll never know what really happened, but personally, I'm not inclined to believe the cop.

35 posted on 03/01/2013 7:33:06 PM PST by zeugma (Those of us who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.)
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To: bgill

I wish every time a cop is out doors or out of their cers and under arms that he/she would put their friggin cap/hat on their friggin heads. Their hat/cap usually has a badge/cap device on it that identifies them as a cop. Some people with limited eyesight from drinking too many beers might not recognize them as cops when they are out of friggin uniform. Maybe a lot of friggin incidents like this one are caused by the cop being out of uniform.


36 posted on 03/01/2013 7:38:37 PM PST by batterycommander (a little more rubble, a lot less trouble)
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To: bgill

I wish every time a cop is out doors or out of their cars and under arms that he/she would put their friggin cap/hat on their friggin heads. Their hat/cap usually has a badge/cap device on it that identifies them as a cop. Some people with limited eyesight from drinking too many beers might not recognize them as cops when they are out of friggin uniform. Maybe a lot of friggin incidents like this one are caused by the cop being out of uniform.


37 posted on 03/01/2013 7:39:27 PM PST by batterycommander (a little more rubble, a lot less trouble)
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To: bgill

In my CHL class, which BTW, was held very close to the city of Austin, we were taught that if you are ever stopped by a cop, the first words out of your mouth should be to inform the officer that you are armed, and that you should place both hands on the steering wheel where he can see them. Then you answer all of his questions, and probably one of the first things he will ask you is where is your gun located.

Keeping your hands on the steering wheel, you will tell him. From there you do as he tells you regarding the gun.


38 posted on 03/01/2013 8:51:43 PM PST by basil (basil, 2ASisters.org)
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To: svcw
It is not uncommon for an officer to ask someone who is showing their gun to put it down on the ground or hand it to the officer. They don’t have to, but it is still common however you do not point it at the officer without consequences.

What evidence is there that he pointed it at the officer? It seems to be VERY much in the officer's best interest to SAY that is what happened, whether it is true or not.

39 posted on 03/01/2013 8:55:14 PM PST by Teacher317 ('Tis time to fear when tyrants seem to kiss.)
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To: BitWielder1

The cop is already on edge...he’s going to have to take the gun out of my waistband while I have my arms up...dead men can’t argue that they weren’t drawing on him, but merely complying with his command.


40 posted on 03/02/2013 12:09:52 AM PST by scott7278 ("...I have not changed Congress and how it operates the way I would have liked..." - BHO)
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