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Ten Neo-Confederate Myths
March 9, 2013 | vanity

Posted on 03/10/2013 8:19:44 AM PDT by BroJoeK

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To: CatherineofAragon
You have to wonder why Yankees hold the South in such comtempt, yet continue to flood down here like locusts, bringing their destructive liberal ways with them and stripping the stores and delis of pastrami.

Funny, but I'm pretty sure that delis and pastrami aren't native Southern flora or fauna.

If they were flocking for grits and hamhocks you might have just grounds for complaint, but it looks to me like they're just reclaiming and enjoying their own contribution.

Oh, well. Southerners will do what we always do when confronted with Yankees who think they know it all. We’ll laugh at you and make fun of you behind your backs.

And they laugh at you behind your backs, so I guess everybody's even.

I do have to wonder if the Yankees aren't a scapegoat. Maybe upcountry and downcountry would get on each other's nerves a lot more if there weren't convenient newcomers to blame.

151 posted on 03/10/2013 12:17:40 PM PDT by x
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To: Repeal The 17th
Repeal The 17th: "The Union lost 76 men.
The Confederates lost 8."

Those are total casualty numbers.
Killed in action on June 10, 1861 were 18 Federals and one Confederate -- Private Henry L. Wyatt of the 1st North Carolina Volunteers.

This first Confederate battle-death came two months after the Confederate assault on Fort Sumter, and one month after the Confederacy's formal declaration of war on the United States, May 6, 1861.

152 posted on 03/10/2013 12:21:53 PM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: BroJoeK

Lot of words - but you avoided answering...Why?


153 posted on 03/10/2013 12:30:04 PM PDT by Triple (Socialism denies people the right to the fruits of their labor, and is as abhorrent as slavery)
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To: BroJoeK
BTTT!


154 posted on 03/10/2013 12:31:08 PM PDT by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free)
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To: humblegunner

Well considering as I observed it isn’t the one that has vanquished tyrannies throughout our nations history, the one defended since the Civil War,WW1 and WW2 and in peace time by members of my family and the one our troops are defending today yeah, it gets my “Irish’’ up. I don’t wear ‘’knickers’’ dude.


155 posted on 03/10/2013 12:36:33 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: CatherineofAragon

There are many for whom racism is a business.


156 posted on 03/10/2013 12:37:19 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: BroJoeK
Everybody knows what the Civil War was fought over. "Johnny Reb" said it very plainly in the movie Gettysburg ....

I'm fighting for my RATS!

157 posted on 03/10/2013 12:37:43 PM PDT by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free)
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To: humblegunner; WXRGina
Not that I have any use for Jimmah, but I have considered a move farther south.


158 posted on 03/10/2013 12:38:22 PM PDT by logitech (Who's here so vile, that will not love his country? If any speak, for him I have offended)
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To: WXRGina

Thanks for making my point. One of those ‘’white guys’’happened to be my great-great-grandfather.


159 posted on 03/10/2013 12:38:48 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: Ray76
Yeah, keeps all that cheese and sauce from running off it on to your lap. Unless you're getting pizza from an honest-to-God Italian American owned and operated pizzeria anything else is just crap.
160 posted on 03/10/2013 12:43:11 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: jmacusa

JMac, I would bet most of us had ancestors who fought or died in that miserable war. What matters is that it was fought, and right won. No man can rightly claim “ownership” of another human being, and I’m sure most people have always known that in their hearts. Slavery has always been an evil part of this sick world and still is to this day.


161 posted on 03/10/2013 12:44:33 PM PDT by WXRGina (The Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: ohioman
ohioman: "Why stir the pot?"

Actually, I was hoping to put "the pot" to rest regarding some very frequently heard claims by Pro-Confederates on many FR Civil War threads.

ohioman: "Posts likes this only serve to divide otherwise conservatively similar people on FR."

"Posts like this" are just my response to many other Civil War related threads where our Pro-Confederates like to spread their propaganda regarding their glorious Lost Cause.

Of course, nothing "offends" me about the "glory" part of it, I'm just trying to keep their facts straight.

ohioman: "Of course I do not mean this as a slight on FR's founder, who hails from California."

I suspect you share a fundamental conceptual problem with our Lost Causers, which has to do with looking at the US map as just "north" vs "south" vs "east" vs "west".
That is so wrong I can't even tell you how wrong.

Liberal and Conservative have nothing to do with which state you come from.
They have everything to do with which part of your state you call home.
If your home is a city, chances are very good you're a Liberal, but as you become more rural, your politics become more Conservative.

Here again is that map of red and blue counties, as of the 2004 Bush vs Kerry election:


162 posted on 03/10/2013 12:45:32 PM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: John S Mosby
People in the South cared for and worked with the blacks as individuals, but not as a group. People in the North loved them as a group (especially in the intellectual leftwing halls of Haaaahvaahd et al), but would have no part of them as individuals in real life and hate them actually. You might imagine that blacks in the South feel the same way, likely at one point fearing whites as a group while caring about and working with them as individuals.

That's painting with a very broad brush. The North (painting with my own broad brush) is at once more impersonal and (in the cities) more tribal. People can have distant yet respectful relations with those from different groups without actually "hating" them. Or they can simply ignore people who aren't part of their own tribe. Doubtless there are White Northerners who actually do hate Blacks, but you have those in the South as well. The differences may be more of style and manner than anything else.

White Southerners may have had cordial relationships with Blacks they grew up with, as you say, without much caring for African-Americans as a group. I'm not sure that's all so very different -- political attitudes aside -- from those "Haaaahvaahd" people you put down. The phenomenon of liking or getting along with a few people while shunning or disliking the group they belong to isn't exclusive to either region. While Northerners may be colder we're not all automatons. It's worth a thought anyway.

Black attitudes towards Whites -- Northern or Southern -- are also pretty complicated. The stereotype may be that African-Americans get on better with Southerners. I'm not so sure that's really the case. Some Northern Blacks and Whites appear to get along quite well from what I can see.

and if you want to see palpable daily bigotry and racism, go to Philly, or Southie Boston

I hear that a lot. But it's a little strange that the 1970s or 1980s in Northern cities are supposed to be still going on and the 1950s or 1960s in the South are ancient history lost in the recesses of time.

For some people, Southie is the Selma or Montgomery they love to look down on and attribute their own faults to. What you're doing isn't so different from what you protest about when others do it to you.

Of course, things have changed in those cities over the last thirty years, even in neighborhoods that got a bad name. For better or worse, kids who are crazy about rap and have Latin girlfriends and black friends and relatives nowadays aren't who their grandparents were.

163 posted on 03/10/2013 12:46:31 PM PDT by x
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To: 0.E.O

This is what I wrote:

“I think your view that the war was only about slavery is as incorrect as the war had nothing to do with slavery.”

Please read it carefully.


164 posted on 03/10/2013 12:48:08 PM PDT by wfu_deacons
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To: BroJoeK
Thank you so much for these thoughts. As the descendant of Southern Unionists and Civil War Republicans, I am so sick and tired of having my ancestors trashed with labels from a political situation that did not exist at that time and having to hear Abraham Lincoln ex post facto declared an Obama Democrat. The same goes for our current regime being compared to Republican state governments during Reconstruction.

The Slave Power was statist and centralizing. No free state was going to be allowed to ban slavery. Eventually it would have been practiced in every state and territory of the Union.

165 posted on 03/10/2013 12:48:10 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: jmacusa

“Make it decafe...”

Yep... these threads always seem to go on a while, don’t they? I’ve switched to seltzer water.. I’ll need some sleep tonight. LOL!


166 posted on 03/10/2013 12:49:41 PM PDT by momtothree
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To: WXRGina

Preaching to the choir FRiend. Thanks.


167 posted on 03/10/2013 12:50:49 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: momtothree

“And the lion shall lie down with the lamb’’. Well you know the lambs aren’t getting any sleep tonight! :-)


168 posted on 03/10/2013 12:52:37 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: BroJoeK

You’re trolling attempt is getting you butt kicked in this discussion.
I think you owe Rush 20 bucks for his catch phrase.


169 posted on 03/10/2013 12:54:30 PM PDT by miliantnutcase
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To: JCBreckenridge
He remains the only president elected with only 30 percent of the total vote, since South carolina was excluded from the election.

According to the accepted totals, Lincoln got almost 40% of the vote.

From what I can see "South Carolina" the state did "vote" in the election. Their electors cast ballots.

It was just that the state decided up to the Civil War, not to hold popular elections. Since the state chose not to play the popular vote game, you can't hold it against the victors in those elections.

170 posted on 03/10/2013 12:55:53 PM PDT by x
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To: x
"Funny, but I'm pretty sure that delis and pastrami aren't native Southern flora or fauna."

"If they were flocking for grits and hamhocks you might have just grounds for complaint, but it looks to me like they're just reclaiming and enjoying their own contribution."

Like my sister-in-law once said, "Have you ever noticed that you have to wait in line at the deli for half an hour if you're behind a Yankee? They buy up every kind of meat in the case."

I don't think the origin of the food has anything to do with it.

"And they laugh at you behind your backs, so I guess everybody's even."

And why would they do that? They come down here, criticize the South, try to tell us how to run things, and they laugh at us? Maybe we should just shut up and smile?

No.

"I do have to wonder if the Yankees aren't a scapegoat. Maybe upcountry and downcountry would get on each other's nerves a lot more if there weren't convenient newcomers to blame."

Not in my experience.

If you think Yankees are a scapegoat, you're not a Southerner who's had to put up with one.

171 posted on 03/10/2013 1:08:51 PM PDT by CatherineofAragon (Support Christian white males---the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization)
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To: wfu_deacons

I read it very carefully and I’ll ask again - are you saying that slavery had nothing to do with the war? Was in no way a motivation for the Southern actions?


172 posted on 03/10/2013 1:12:22 PM PDT by 0.E.O
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To: CatherineofAragon
If you think Yankees are a scapegoat, you're not a Southerner who's had to put up with one.

I sense a high level of internet butthurt.

173 posted on 03/10/2013 1:16:45 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: CatherineofAragon
If you think Yankees are a scapegoat, you're not a Southerner who's had to put up with one.

Why honey, bless your heart. I'm sure you're just the soul of patience.

174 posted on 03/10/2013 1:16:49 PM PDT by 0.E.O
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To: BroJoeK
There is much truth to the article you posted, however, I think its author is being disingenuous in stating that the conflict between Union and Confederacy was solely over slavery.

The political and intellectual father (or at least grandfather, as he died before secession) of the Confederacy was not Jefferson Davis, but John C. Calhoun. His principal objection to unionism was his belief that states have the right to negotiate their own trade agreements with one another and with foreign governments. Since the south was predominantly agrarian, planters resented the tariff that effectively forced them to purchase goods manufactured in the north instead of cheaper British or European goods.

While this was not the flashpoint that caused shots to be exchanged at Fort Sumter, disagreement over trade and taxes tilled the soil for secession over other issues, including slavery.

175 posted on 03/10/2013 1:17:30 PM PDT by ek_hornbeck
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To: x

Not a broad brush at all— this reflects the cultural attitudinal behaviours of Yankees vs Southerners, and further, running this past my black friends, they concur- there is a distinct variance in how they are treated socially and in business.

The PC crowd of neo-liberals and social justice pontificators originated in the NE snoot schools with their largely white cliques of preppy aholes. Way long ago, Southerners got past all this— to survive Reconstruction. Southerners get along fine with Southern blacks— so put that into the formula.

Can tell you that among my black friends it is universal that they hate going to Boston, or Chi-town or New Yawwk and especially not LA or SF-— because of the bigotry (as distinguished from the ubiquitously misapplied “racism”). They love the South and their good old boy business and personal friends.

In that sense, your comment as it relates to bigotry may be more refined if you take into account urban vs. rural. Fact is that living like sardines breeds insanity and people’s focus is their own little habitat.

Listen to “National Brotherhood Week” by Tom Lehrer (a jewish yankee liberal counterculture harvard mathemetician who worked at the NSA and taught political science at MIT and math at UC Santa Cruz before embarking on musical theater career). He gets it just about right—the concept of focused bigotry painted with a broad brush, and all too true. Deo Vindice.


176 posted on 03/10/2013 1:19:15 PM PDT by John S Mosby (Sic Semper Tyrannis)
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To: BroJoeK

So is it your position that under *some* circumstances Virginia *has* the right to unilaterally secede?

(Has not had)

TIA


177 posted on 03/10/2013 1:21:21 PM PDT by Triple (Socialism denies people the right to the fruits of their labor, and is as abhorrent as slavery)
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To: wfu_deacons
wfu_deacons: "I think your view that the war was only about slavery is as incorrect as the war had nothing to do with slavery."

First of all, go back and read my item #1 again, it says the myth is:

In fact secession was not just all about slavery, it was virtually only about slavery -- no other reason can even be measured.

But secession by itself did not cause war.
Indeed, there was virtually no Union response to secession, except in attempting to hold two, out of many dozens, of Federal facilities illegally seized by secessionists.

So, what started war was not secession, but rather the Confederacy's military assault on Federal Fort Sumter in April 1861, and then its formal declaration of war on the United States, May 6, 1861.

On May 23, 1861, Virginia voters elected to join the Confederacy and it's already declared war.

The first Confederate battle death did not happen until June 10, 1861.

wfu_deacons: "My great-grandfather (4 of my great-grandfathers served in the Confederate army) served as a private in the 10th Virginia and was not a slave-owner, 95% of the population of Virginia were not slave-owners."

Actual numbers for what percentages of white families from each state owned slaves can be found at this link.
They range from around 50% owning slaves in the Deep South states like Mississippi and South Carolina, to around 10% in Border states like Missouri and Maryland.

Numbers for Upper-South Virginia, North Carolina & Tennessee, as you might expect, are about half way: 25% of white families owned slaves.

Of course, in Western Virginia, your figure of 95% not owning slaves may well be correct.
And that is why they seceded from Virginia rather than go to war to defend slavery.
Eastern Tennessee and Western North Carolina tried to do the same.

wfu_deacons: "Union troops invoked total war against the citizens of Virginia— they burned farms, killed livestock, and destroyed mills."

And Confederate troops invading Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky, Missouri and Kansas, to name some, did much the same.
The truth of the matter is that there was a lot of pillage and destruction of property, on both sides.
But there were very few murders or other atrocities against civilians, on either side.

178 posted on 03/10/2013 1:25:08 PM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: BroJoeK
"The Union murdered, raped and pillaged civilians throughout the South."

As I said above, I appreciate most of what you say, but some of it is misleading. You are correct to note that murder and rape of civilians was rare in the civil war, but generally, the "pillaging" refers more the Sherman's scorched earth policy during his "March to the Sea" rather than uncoordinated criminal looting by individual soldiers.

There certainly is no denying the massive destruction of civilian property in Sherman's wake.

179 posted on 03/10/2013 1:26:22 PM PDT by ek_hornbeck
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To: Triple; BroJoeK

BroJoeK’s #114 was a bit wordy but the essence is correct - everyone has the natural right to rebellion but there is no “right of secession” enumerated in the United States Constitution, especially not unilaterally.


180 posted on 03/10/2013 1:28:16 PM PDT by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: Ecliptic
Instead of being obsessed with their past, those of African roots should be pouring their time and money into spreading the Gospel in Africa.

Why not start by working to end slavery in African countries where it's still practiced, as opposed to complaining about its practice a century and a half ago in the US?

181 posted on 03/10/2013 1:28:21 PM PDT by ek_hornbeck
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To: CatherineofAragon
Well, let’s not get wrapped up in a blanket of Yankee self-righteousness. We should remember that slavery existed in the North as well as in the South, and that there was still a small number of slaves in New Jersey as late as 1860.

All true, but the issue is not moral righteousness, the issue is over who is to blame for the civil war. It is a myth that Lincoln wanted to end slavery in existing slave states. The worst that his government did was limit the spread of slavery via the Missouri compromise and his government's failure to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act (why do state's rights suddenly go out the window there)?

The proximate (though not necessarily ultimate or historical cause) for secession was not Lincoln imposing his will on slave states, but the slave state's desire to impose their will and laws on the rest of the nation, including free states.

182 posted on 03/10/2013 1:34:18 PM PDT by ek_hornbeck
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To: AnalogReigns
AnalogReigns: "You are calling THOUSANDS of civilian lives murdered an 'exception' 'crucial to victory.' "

I've seen no confirmed records of "THOUSANDS" of civilians killed anywhere, and only one report of hundreds of civilians killed: in Confederate Captain William Quantrill's raid into Lawrence, Kansas in August, 1863.

I've seen no reports of any similar Civil War Union army massacre of civilians.

183 posted on 03/10/2013 1:40:54 PM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: spel_grammer_an_punct_polise
spel_grammer_an_punct_polise: "My question is, paraphrasing a Philadelphia mayor of the early 80s, 'When is the debt paid up?' "

I'd say: Paid in Full by Appomatox, in April 1865,
Paid with Interest in the 13th, 14th & 15th Amendments,
Paid with penalties in LB Johnson's "Great Society"
Paid with usurious interest on the penalties in today's run-amuck, out-of-control, spend-like-no-tomorrow, Federal Government.

;-)

184 posted on 03/10/2013 1:47:44 PM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: BroJoeK

Very interesting post, thanks.


185 posted on 03/10/2013 1:48:31 PM PDT by JerseyDvl (Cogito Ergo Doleo Soetoro, ABO and of course FUBO!)
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To: BroJoeK

I have read your posts and you are quite unfamiliar with the monetary aspect of the Civil War.

The trade on the Mississippi was issue #1.


186 posted on 03/10/2013 1:50:23 PM PDT by eyedigress ((zOld storm chaser from the west)/ ?)
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To: John S Mosby
The PC crowd of neo-liberals and social justice pontificators originated in the NE snoot schools with their largely white cliques of preppy aholes. Way long ago, Southerners got past all this— to survive Reconstruction.

That's a little confusing. I'm pretty sure Southerners (or any Americans) back a century ago didn't "get past" anything racial.

Southerners get along fine with Southern blacks— so put that into the formula.

I guess "Southerners" means "Southern Whites." And that is the "formula." The other side of the coin is that young White and Black Northerners may get along with each other better than Southerners are willing to admit and they just might feel as out of place in a Southern city (or rural community) as Southerners, Black or White, would feel in a Northern city. At least many of the younger African-Americans that I've met didn't feel like Dixie was "home." A few did. Others didn't.

What gets left out, though, is that Harvard and Southie dislike each other more than most Northerners and Southerners do. That conflict has been going on even longer than the piddling Civil War has (unless the Civil War was simply the same conflict in another guise). Complaining that Harvard and Yale look down on you while looking down yourself on Southie, or Phillie, or Cleveland, or Brooklyn, or Bridgeport -- is playing a double game. Maybe it's better to admit that the old days of rich, arrogant Northerners and poor, victimized Southerners are gone for good.

187 posted on 03/10/2013 1:50:32 PM PDT by x
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To: 1rudeboy

Sense? You?


188 posted on 03/10/2013 1:50:40 PM PDT by CatherineofAragon (Support Christian white males---the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization)
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To: rockrr; BroJoeK

I want his take, but my impression of his position is that Virginia *does* have the unilateral right to secede, *IF* the rights of its citizens are being oppressed by the federal government. (He also says that the Fedgov was *not* oppressing citizens rights when Virginia Seceded.)

Waiting...


189 posted on 03/10/2013 1:51:52 PM PDT by Triple (Socialism denies people the right to the fruits of their labor, and is as abhorrent as slavery)
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To: 0.E.O
"Why honey, bless your heart. I'm sure you're just the soul of patience."

I don't know where you got that idea.

190 posted on 03/10/2013 1:55:35 PM PDT by CatherineofAragon (Support Christian white males---the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization)
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To: GOYAKLA
GOYAKLA: "Bless your Heart!
We of the South really enjoy the warmth of your message. We are looking forward to setting down with you, sometime, to a fine “supper” of fried chicken. mashed taters, biscuits and sweet tea.

We gave up on fighting each other years ago. Maybe you should consider it today..."

First, thanks so much for you kind words, which I will take more sincerely than you intended. ;-)

Second, over the years there have been many, many Civil War related threads, where our Pro-Confederates have had plenty to say about it.
This thread merely attempts to summarize what I've seen as their most common myths.

Maybe we can put those to bed right here, FRiend?

191 posted on 03/10/2013 1:55:58 PM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: eyedigress
That's why it was listed as the primary reason for Mississippi's secession. Oh wait, it wasn't:

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

192 posted on 03/10/2013 1:57:10 PM PDT by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: ek_hornbeck
"All true, but the issue is not moral righteousness

You could have fooled me!

193 posted on 03/10/2013 1:57:16 PM PDT by CatherineofAragon (Support Christian white males---the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization)
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To: BroJoeK
Arkansas, Tennessee, North Caolina and Virginia did not leave the union until Lincoln called up troops to quell the "rebellion".

Nobody was tried for treason after the war, not even Jeff Davis who was being incarcerated and was asking for a trial.

194 posted on 03/10/2013 2:00:43 PM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: rockrr

The actual rifts started at the confluence of the Ohio and Tennessee. Tolls were being exacted on industry from the Great Lakes.


195 posted on 03/10/2013 2:00:45 PM PDT by eyedigress ((zOld storm chaser from the west)/ ?)
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To: rockrr

These tolls were mostly to stop Lincoln from exercising a “National” tax on products where the southern states felt no qualification for it.


196 posted on 03/10/2013 2:05:56 PM PDT by eyedigress ((zOld storm chaser from the west)/ ?)
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To: BroJoeK

ON April 4, 1861 the Virginia secession convention voted not to secede. The convention did not vote to secede until April 17, 1861 after Lincoln called for troops to invade the South. Virginia attempted to resolve the conflict by sending several delegations to Washington but in the end could not participate in the Unconstitutional invasion of the South.

Virginia’s population in 1860 was 1,596,318 and the number of slaveholders was 52,128, that works out to about 3.2%. The free population was 1,105,453 (not just white), so that works out to 4.7%-— my previous post was correct. Note, Virginia had more slaves that any other Southern state and more free blacks than any state with the exception of Maryland.
http://mapserver.lib.virginia.edu/php/state.php

You comments about the South’s invasion of Union territory is like comparing a camp fire to Dresden.


197 posted on 03/10/2013 2:07:28 PM PDT by wfu_deacons
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To: 0.E.O

I wrote:

“I think your view that the war was only about slavery is as incorrect as the war had nothing to do with slavery.”

I did not write:

“I think your view that the war was only about slavery is incorrect, as the war had nothing to do with slavery.”


198 posted on 03/10/2013 2:20:44 PM PDT by wfu_deacons
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The money guys from both sides cost us 650,000 folks and severe destruction. It was a tax that started it. Make no mistake that slavery became an issue but it wasn’t the kindling that started the fire.


199 posted on 03/10/2013 2:30:10 PM PDT by eyedigress ((zOld storm chaser from the west)/ ?)
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To: Triple
I want his take, but my impression of his position is that Virginia *does* have the unilateral right to secede, *IF* the rights of its citizens are being oppressed by the federal government.

Who decides whether they are being oppressed?

200 posted on 03/10/2013 2:46:10 PM PDT by 0.E.O
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