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Rand Paul: Letís get marriage out of the tax code
Hotair ^ | 03/14/2013 | AllahPundit

Posted on 03/14/2013 7:41:29 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

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To: old and tired

RE: The only one of those that’s a problem is Social Security.

Immigration too.

People don’t just immigrate without their spouses. How do you have an immigration law that does not recognize a person’s marriage from another country?


41 posted on 03/14/2013 9:29:41 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

ALL social issues should be taken out of the federal government’s hands. Paul is right. Or we could just go on fighting about it forever and screwing with a tax code already so fouled up it will never be fixed.


42 posted on 03/14/2013 9:31:00 AM PDT by AuntB (Illegal immigration is simply more "share the wealth" socialism and a CRIME not a race!)
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To: AuntB

You cannot separate social policy from fiscal policy....that’s what allowed the government to grow into the leviathan that it is today.


43 posted on 03/14/2013 9:32:36 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: SeekAndFind

I agree the very idea that the Government should demand a Licence to get married is objectionable.

Just to remind everyone out there: THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT AND CANNOT MARRY YOU!

The Government is an incoherent institution of force, not a wife or husband.

Only God can marry you and thus only God’s consent is of any legitimately indispensable significance.

Indeed it wasn’t until around 100 years ago at the beginning of the “progressive era” that any american government ever became so arrogant as to demand a say in your marriage.

Let that say end now!


44 posted on 03/14/2013 9:33:17 AM PDT by Monorprise
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To: JCBreckenridge
I'm not going to say I'm supporting Rand. I'd have supported his father over a Dem, but that was about it. As I see it the Fed support marriage in two ways- 1) via the tax benefit if only one spouse works 2) the second way is SS spousal benefits.

I'm sick of hearing about homosexuals and all their supposed discrimination that they can't marry. Do I believe that two people of the same gender living together as husband and wife put their souls in immortal peril? Yes. Do I think they should have the right to do that in a free country? Yes. Do I think the government should call them married? No. Do I care if the government thinks my wife and I are married? No. Do I care if the Lord pours out blessings on my wife and me in the beautiful sacrament of marriage? Yes. That was why we married in a church. I don't really understand why CHristians care if our decidedly unGodly government should get out of the marriage business.

45 posted on 03/14/2013 9:38:05 AM PDT by old and tired
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To: SeekAndFind

Good point about immigration. I’m not familiar with immigration law at all - are people currently allowed to emigrate with their dependents?


46 posted on 03/14/2013 9:42:29 AM PDT by old and tired
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To: AuntB

“ALL social issues should be taken out of the federal government’s hands. Paul is right. Or we could just go on fighting about it forever and screwing with a tax code already so fouled up it will never be fixed.”

There is an extremely simple understanding that should be passed on to those too lasy to bother to read the Federal Constitution:

If we cannot agree in Washington it should be left to the States. If we cannot agree in our state house it should be left to the local government. If we cannot agree there it should be left to the family.

Government on every issue is by no means indispensable. Men & women are perfectly capable of govern themselves by the rules of nature on almost every matter of life. No better proof of this fact can be more easily found than to observe in history that we have before governed ourselfs on the matters.

It is the objection of every party arguing for change that the method of self-government is imperfect just as it is the shortsightedness of every party to fail to see the imperfections of their own preferred method.

Let us agree to disagree, and to live by the resulting rules of mutual respect for each-others right to self-government.


47 posted on 03/14/2013 9:43:07 AM PDT by Monorprise
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To: old and tired

not just dependents, you can bring along 15 immediate relatives too. and then they can and so on.


48 posted on 03/14/2013 9:43:57 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: old and tired

“I don’t really understand why CHristians care if our decidedly unGodly government should get out of the marriage business.”

Do you care about Habeaus corpus and Trial by Jury?


49 posted on 03/14/2013 9:47:50 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: JCBreckenridge

Perhaps you can help me see the capitulation here JC?

The concept of marriage licences is a liberal idea designed to give the state(and thus them) some lever of control over our marriages.

That control is now being abused so why not just wipe it out? Return marriage to the exclusive province of the church & God where it has belonged for many thousands of years prior to the “progressive era”.

I see no capitulation here, On the contrary. I see only jumping to the logical conclusion to cut off the left.


50 posted on 03/14/2013 9:48:33 AM PDT by Monorprise
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To: dfwgator

“The problem is that, it is not what the gay agenda wants....They want to force every institution, to consider gay marriages on par with heterosexual ones, and force religious institutions to give them equal weighting, and they will not stop until they get it.”

The whole point of the ‘gay marriage’ fight is to punish folks who won’t buy into it with the power of the state. They will fight tooth and nail to be able to punish and keep punishing those who will never buy into whatever impossibility the state decides to call marriage at the time.

I think a big reason so many accept impossibilities like ‘gay marriage’ is because many have been conditioned to think the state defines marriage. It comes in little pieces of paper with strictures and benefits, and can be broken and resumed between any parties if the state gives its permission.

Often you will read about some faith that believes ‘gay marriage’ is possible but won’t recognize their own members ‘gay marriages’ until the state they are in also agrees. Which might be more insane than actually buying into ‘gay marriage’ in the first place.

Freegards


51 posted on 03/14/2013 9:50:07 AM PDT by Ransomed
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To: Monorprise

RE: THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT AND CANNOT MARRY YOU!

Let’s think about this a bit. Let’s assume that this will be true...

Will the government then be ask to recognize unions of some sort?

There are two possible answers — yes and no.

If the answer is yes, This implies among other things that:

* That the government will still need to recognize marriages that were done overseas of the purposes of say, immigration (surely you don’t want to separate an immigrant from his wife... ).

* The government will have to find a way to administer things like social security, which implies that even if they don’t marry you, they must recognize your marriage (or union, for want of a better word ) done in some church or mosque or temple.

* The government will still need to deal with what constitutes a father or mother for children born in this country.

Now if the answer is “no” (i.e., government won’t recognize any unions at all ).... then the implication would be (among other things ):

* You can’t bring your spouse to America, if you were married overseas because the government does not recognize such union. Only YOU can enter this country.

* If you were to die, your spouse does not have to get anything from the social security funds you paid for during your working years, since “spouses” are not a recognized entity (this will save government a lot of money and they might have an incentive for non-recognition ).

* The government will still need to deal with what constitutes a father or mother for children born in this country.


52 posted on 03/14/2013 9:55:21 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: JCBreckenridge
Do you care about Habeaus corpus and Trial by Jury?

Depends. I have been a small business owner for many years. The few times I have been involved in legal disputes, my preference (and that of my attorney) would be to appear before a judge rather than a jury who are much more prone to irrationsl (read racist)judgements than a single judge.

53 posted on 03/14/2013 9:55:46 AM PDT by old and tired
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To: old and tired

RE: I’m not familiar with immigration law at all - are people currently allowed to emigrate with their dependents?

Current immigration law states that if you are a LEGAL immigrant, and your application is approved, YOUR SPOUSE AND ALL MINOR DEPENDENT CHILDREN ARE AUTOMATICALLY APPROVED.

How do we change that law of government gets out of the business of recognizing marriage?


54 posted on 03/14/2013 9:57:16 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: Monorprise

“The concept of marriage licences is a liberal idea designed to give the state(and thus them) some lever of control over our marriages.”

That’s actually not so. The concept of marriage licenses dates back to the English Common law, alongside Habeaus Corpus and Trial by Jury.

It was brought over to the United states along with the rest of the Common Law, well before the Revolution. All the states are governed by the common law, either introduced when they became states or under territorial control of the United States.

The last challenge to this law was in Reynolds vs the United States. The Supreme Court affirmed that the Federal government had an obligation to preserve marriage between one man and one woman and could prosecute things like bigamy and polygamy, alongside homosexuality.

I get what Rand is saying about the need for constitutional governance - he is off base here when he strips something that is constitutional for the federal government to regulate.

The other question for Rand is what about spousal visas? Federal control of immigration is also constitutional. Does he propose to do away with them altogether since the ‘government has no say’, or should immigrants be permitted to bring in a companion?

This is a poorly thought out position by Rand which, if extended to it’s natural consequences - would be absolutely disastrous. Does Rand plan to suspend child support payments? Spousal support via Social security? Etc.


55 posted on 03/14/2013 9:59:53 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: SeekAndFind
* You can’t bring your spouse to America, if you were married overseas because the government does not recognize such union. Only YOU can enter this country. * If you were to die, your spouse does not have to get anything from the social security funds you paid for during your working years, since “spouses” are not a recognized entity (this will save government a lot of money and they might have an incentive for non-recognition ). * The government will still need to deal with what constitutes a father or mother for children born in this country.

The first one isn't a problem for me. I suspect however a work around - like proving someone has been a dependent of the immigrant for the last 5 years - could easily be worked out. I do see SS as the biggest problem. However, it'll be morphing into something else soon enough anyway and this might be an easy way for the government to implement changes. Parenthood can now be established first via the parents' word on birth certificates and when that fails, on DNA.

56 posted on 03/14/2013 10:01:50 AM PDT by old and tired
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To: SeekAndFind

This is not a huge issue. What about proving the spouse has been a non-minor dependent for the last five years? Sure, we’ll get some siblings and some parents, but so long as the immigrant swears to support them so they don’t become a burden on the state I don’t see it as a problem.


57 posted on 03/14/2013 10:04:43 AM PDT by old and tired
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To: KevinDavis
Last time I check Sodomy is not a crime.. I take it you want the Government to arrest people who does Sodomy???

Last time you checked was perhaps rather recently. Until the US Supreme Court arrogated to itself the privilege of weighing in on a state criminal code in Lawrence vs. Texas (2003), there were laws against sodomy on the books in most states. Earlier in the 20th century and before, there were such laws in all states, as there have been in all countries in the Judeo-Christian tradition for more than 5,000 years.

The answer to your last question is yes. In our system under the Constitution (pace the USSC since the 1940s, the content of the criminal code depends on what a state's own legislators decide. I think it's a good system.

58 posted on 03/14/2013 10:05:19 AM PDT by SamuraiScot
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To: old and tired

RE: The first one isn’t a problem for me. I suspect however a work around - like proving someone has been a dependent of the immigrant for the last 5 years - could easily be worked out.

Will the above be applicable for gays who were married in a country that recognized such unions?

Say, X is a gay spouse of Y in Country Z which recognizes gay marriage.... how can X prove that he is dependent on Y while living in country Z?


59 posted on 03/14/2013 10:06:57 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: old and tired

RE: What about proving the spouse has been a non-minor dependent for the last five years?

How do you prove that when you were living overseas?


60 posted on 03/14/2013 10:08:23 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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