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Is Pope Francis Liberal or Conservative?
American Thinker ^ | 03/18/2013 | Selwyn Duke

Posted on 03/18/2013 7:09:04 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

With the election of Pope Francis, there has been an almost "catholic" attempt to determine if he is liberal or conservative. CBS claims he is a "staunch conservative" based on the fact that, as correspondent Allen Pizzey put it, he "opposes abortion, supports celibacy, and called gay adoption discrimination against children," not to mention his opposition to faux marriage.

Tingle Central's Chris Matthews said that the new pontiff is economically "progressive," which, if we were to be informed by actual statistics, should mean he wouldn't give one red cent to anybody. But none of these analysts will peg the pope because they're using the provisional to understand a man defined by an institution based in the perpetual. And the reality is this: the terms "liberal," "conservative," and "moderate" are, in the truest sense, meaningless in Catholic circles. And understanding why holds a lesson for all of us.

Republican Ohio senator Rob Portman recently announced that he now supports faux marriage, and other self-proclaimed conservatives, such as CNN News' Margaret Hoover, have long done so. On the other hand, conservative Cliff Kincaid was recently scored by Michelle Malkin's site Twitchy for writing, "There is no such thing as a 'gay conservative,' unless the term 'conservative' has lost all meaning," prompting Renew America's Bryan Fischer to accuse the Malkinites of "trying to redefine conservatism." But Kincaid gets it close to right and Fischer is wrong.

Conservatism never had enduring meaning because it was never truly defined in the first place.

Understand that all places and times -- that is, all modern times -- have had their conservatives. Europe has its conservatives, but their general attitude toward faux marriage ranges from support to blithe indifference, and they don't trouble much over abortion.

(Excerpt) Read more at americanthinker.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: catholic; conservative; liberal; popefrancis; religiousleft
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1 posted on 03/18/2013 7:09:04 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

Trying to fit his theological outlook into American political labels is foolish.


2 posted on 03/18/2013 7:11:58 AM PDT by FewsOrange
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To: SeekAndFind

Cbs thinks any Catholic is, by definition, “conservative”; completely unknowing about the idiot liberation theology that Jesuits in particular follow.


3 posted on 03/18/2013 7:16:02 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: SeekAndFind

I don’t care whether he is conservative or liberal.

What I care about is respect for the mass, expecially the Tridentine mass which this Pope, as a Cardinal in Argentina, eradicated.


4 posted on 03/18/2013 7:16:06 AM PDT by SatinDoll (NATURAL BORN CITZEN: BORN IN THE USA OF CITIZEN PARENTS.)
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To: FewsOrange

Jesuits are liberal. By liberal, I mean, they view God’s word and Canon Law as “living and breathing” documents. The Jesuits I have come across mostly in American acedemia are heretics that believe in multiple Gods (everyone has their own), reject the existence of satan and evil (they call sin the absence of a relationship with God), and manage to find enough loopholes to justify social ills such as abortion and homosexuality. Not that this is true of Pope Francis. I am willing to give him a chance with an open mind, but my experience with Jesuit theology has not been positive, to include a retreat just this last weekend. I got a lot out of it philosophically that I can apply to my life in a positive way, but the theology was heresy IMO.


5 posted on 03/18/2013 7:21:43 AM PDT by wolfman23601
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To: yldstrk

RE: Cbs thinks any Catholic is, by definition, “conservative”;

How can a news organization ignore the fact that MOST American Catholics voted FOR the gay marriage supporting, partial birth abortion supporting Obama?


6 posted on 03/18/2013 7:21:44 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SatinDoll

RE: What I care about is respect for the mass, expecially the Tridentine mass which this Pope, as a Cardinal in Argentina, eradicated.

OK< what if Francis is not really against the Tridentine mass, but is giving Roman Catholics the choice to attend the kind of mass that edifies them more?


7 posted on 03/18/2013 7:23:13 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

Well, I don’t know if most Catholics did, but there are plenty that should be excommunicated that believe in all that liberal mantra


8 posted on 03/18/2013 7:23:27 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: SeekAndFind
How can a news organization ignore the fact that MOST American Catholics voted FOR the gay marriage supporting, partial birth abortion supporting Obama?

True, but not in any great majority and less so than in 2008. Still, the American Bishops have their work cut out for them.

9 posted on 03/18/2013 7:26:06 AM PDT by Last Dakotan
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To: yldstrk

RE: Well, I don’t know if most Catholics did

From Reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/08/us-usa-campaign-religion-idUSBRE8A71M420121108

EXCERPT:

________________________________

Post-election polling shows U.S. Roman Catholics were as likely to favor President Barack Obama as the general population in 2012, continuing the Catholic record as the bellwether of the popular vote.

Catholics - the country’s largest religious group with one-quarter of the population - have supported the winner of the popular vote in every election since 1972.

Reuters/Ipsos exit polling found that 51 percent of Catholics favored President Barack Obama, compared with 48 percent for Republican contender Mitt Romney. A report by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life had a similar finding, with 50 percent of Catholics for Obama and 48 percent for Romney, the same as the popular vote in the general population.

Hispanic Catholics were far more likely to favor Obama - by 76 percent to 23 percent - than white Catholics, who favored Romney by 56 percent to 43 percent, according to the Reuters poll. Black Protestants favored Obama by 97 percent to 3 percent, while white Protestants favored Romney by 69 percent compared to 29 percent for Obama.

_____________________________

Well, now you know.


10 posted on 03/18/2013 7:26:44 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

ick yuck patooie, how embarrassing


11 posted on 03/18/2013 7:27:24 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: SeekAndFind

Why would it matter what this mortal man thinks? Isn’t his primary job to be a “mouthpiece” for God. So unless it’s known that Popes insert their own ideas into the messages God sends to people, what does it matter.

Of course I don’t believe in Catholicism, but it seems to me that Catholics want or expect mortal men to adjust God’s truth to what “tickles” their ears the most. God and his Truth are the same yesterday, today, and forever, and we don’t need a mortal man in Italy to tell us what that truth is.


12 posted on 03/18/2013 7:27:25 AM PDT by ScubieNuc (When there is no justice in the laws, justice is left to the outlaws.)
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To: SeekAndFind

I wonder what the numbers look like for Catholics that regularly attend mass and discount the Christmas and Easter blood Catholics or the Jersey Shore Catholics?


13 posted on 03/18/2013 7:31:26 AM PDT by wolfman23601
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To: yldstrk
"Cbs thinks any Catholic is, by definition, “conservative”"

This is a serious misreading. He thinks Catholicism is, by definition, conservative; this will be true whether "any Catholc" actually conforms to Catholicism or not.

The trouble with a bad Catholic is almost always that he isn't Catholic enough.

14 posted on 03/18/2013 7:37:19 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (The Holy Catholic Church: the more Catholic it is, the more holy it is.)
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To: yldstrk
Well, I don’t know if most Catholics did, but there are plenty that should be excommunicated that believe in all that liberal mantra

Don't know but I still see Obama bumper stickers in the church parking lot on Sundays.

15 posted on 03/18/2013 7:39:16 AM PDT by Don Corleone ("Oil the gun..eat the cannoli. Take it to the Mattress.")
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To: wolfman23601

RE: I wonder what the numbers look like for Catholics that regularly attend mass and discount the Christmas and Easter blood Catholics or the Jersey Shore Catholics?

Wonder no longer, the devout ones voted AGAINST Obama. Unfortunately, they aren’t in the majority in this country.


16 posted on 03/18/2013 7:40:41 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind
...MOST American Catholics voted FOR the gay marriage supporting, partial birth abortion supporting Obama?

This is what I don't get. The most evangelical protestant groups see no where NEAR this support for these evils, and yet militant Catholics have the gall to call US heretics.

A good tree produces good fruit.

17 posted on 03/18/2013 7:42:08 AM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: ScubieNuc

“God and his Truth are the same yesterday, today, and forever, and we don’t need a mortal man in Italy to tell us what that truth is.”

Everyone has their interpretation on what is the “Truth”. You could post any verse of the Bible and it would mean something different to everyone on this forum. Unless you are a Mennonite, you too are relying on mortal man’s interpretation. I, for one, am more receptive to those with decades of training and language, history, and culture than someone who paid $50 for a “Reverend” license out of Parade Magazine. It does matter. Just like the constitution, if you have the wrong person in charge, they can make it say whatever they want. Nobody claims the Pope is anything but mortal. As the chief administrator of such a large and far reaching organization, it is important who is in charge because he will be the ultimate determiner of what offshhots are allowed to get away with.


18 posted on 03/18/2013 7:42:39 AM PDT by wolfman23601
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To: SatinDoll
I do not believe Francis will do anything to undermine the freedom Pope Benedict granted to the traditional Latin Mass in 2007 ... And, even more, I agree with what one reader writes: “Unlike Pope Benedict, I would not be at all surprised to see Pope Francis publicly offer a traditional Latin Mass some day. He has a deep devotion to Our Lady of Fatima, is said to practice the Five First Saturday Devotions, and prays 15 decades of the Rosary each day.
19 posted on 03/18/2013 7:42:41 AM PDT by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free)
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To: fwdude

RE: This is what I don’t get. The most evangelical protestant groups see no where NEAR this support for these evils, and yet militant Catholics have the gall to call US heretics.

The counter argument is this — DEVOUT Catholics voted against Obama. Unfortunately, they are in the minority.


20 posted on 03/18/2013 7:47:13 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

“OK< what if Francis is not really against the Tridentine mass, but is giving Roman Catholics the choice to attend the kind of mass that edifies them more?”

Videos show that he doesn’t genuflect when at the altar.

To quote Ann Barnhardt:

Here is the full video of Pope Francis’ first Mass in the Sistine Chapel.

The consecration of the Host happens at 51:47. The consecration of the Chalice happens at 52:32.

I cannot believe I am about to type these words.

The Pope DID NOT GENUFLECT after either consecration. He did a weird bow thing, but didn’t feel the need to bend his knee to God Almighty, physically present in his hands upon the altar.

HE. DID. NOT. GENUFLECT.

This is absolutely stunning. And unprecedented.

...He FREELY CHOOSES to not reverence Our Lord in the Eucharist upon the altar.

http://www.barnhardt.biz
Oh, we are in deep, deep trouble.
Posted by Ann Barnhardt - March 16, AD 2013 8:08 PM MST

*********************************

As a Roman Catholic, I will make my choice and attend Cathoic mass at Eastern Cathoic rite churches, probably Ukrainian.


21 posted on 03/18/2013 7:47:28 AM PDT by SatinDoll (NATURAL BORN CITZEN: BORN IN THE USA OF CITIZEN PARENTS.)
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To: SeekAndFind

I am just waiting to see if the new Pope will be “un-wafer-ing” as an anti-abortionist and not give communion to certain pro-abortion politicians in attendance at his installation mass.


22 posted on 03/18/2013 7:49:35 AM PDT by N. Theknow (Kennedys=Can't drive, can't ski, can't fly, can't skipper a boat, but they know what's best for you.)
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To: fwdude

If the most evangelical groups had actually showed up to the polls, Obama would not have taken Virginia, Florida, or Ohio.


23 posted on 03/18/2013 7:50:44 AM PDT by wolfman23601
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To: SeekAndFind
"How can a news organization ignore the fact that MOST American Catholics voted FOR the gay marriage supporting, partial birth abortion supporting Obama?"

I don't believe that; No one actually does. How does one quantify that? I am Catholic, and no one asked me if I was Catholic at the voting booth. Just another bogus "poll"......

24 posted on 03/18/2013 7:55:01 AM PDT by NoRedTape
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To: wolfman23601

It always makes sense to defend the actual Obama voting group and to attack the most republican voting group in America, for their voting, if one’s politics call for that.


25 posted on 03/18/2013 7:56:12 AM PDT by ansel12 (" I would not be in the United States Senate if it wasn’t for Sarah Palin " Cruz said.)
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To: NoRedTape

Sure, election after election, after election, after election, for 100 years and lets all pretend that it isn’t real and that there is no such thing as exit polling and connecting religion and voting.


26 posted on 03/18/2013 7:58:53 AM PDT by ansel12 (" I would not be in the United States Senate if it wasn’t for Sarah Palin " Cruz said.)
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To: SatinDoll

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is the difference between a Roman Catholic and other Catholics? Is it like the difference between say a Anglican and a Baptist?

I keep hearing that Pope Francis is a Jesuit. His actions so far seem to be appealing to protestants like myself. I am sensing that this is an unwelcome change to the Catholic faith.


27 posted on 03/18/2013 8:03:10 AM PDT by PJammers (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: wolfman23601

A little research please:

From the National Catholic Reporter (a liberal paper):

“The Society of Jesus, a Catholic order founded in the 16th century by St. Ignatius Loyola. Its members, known as Jesuits, take a vow of poverty and are known for their work among the poor and their scholarship.

Perhaps helping him overcome the traditional reluctance to elect a Jesuit pope, he fell out of favor among some Jesuits in Argentina after he was elected to the title of Jesuit provincial in 1973.

Argentina was ruled in the late 1970s by a brutal military dictatorship, and many Jesuits were drawn to a progressive activist movement within the church known as liberation theology. Church leaders backed the dictatorship publicly, and Bergoglio discouraged priests from political activism.”


28 posted on 03/18/2013 8:06:18 AM PDT by stanne
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To: yldstrk

But just so you know:

Pope Francis very strongly opposed liberation theology, on the grounds that it sought to assist the poor through strictly worldly ways (i.e., socialist intervention). That opposition probably cost him the papal election the last time, as he was hammered by absurd allegations he abetted war crimes by the fascistic military Junta, and made him somewhat of a pariah among many Jesuit institutions.

(I think the Holy Spirit desired a few years out of Benedict XVI to finish and balance John Paul II’s work of routing out heresies.)


29 posted on 03/18/2013 8:10:11 AM PDT by dangus (Poverty cannot be eradicated as long as the poor remain dependent on the state - Pope Francis)
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To: SeekAndFind

They do. Everyone does. This Pope has been paying attention to what is going on in the West - the heretical tendencies. He fought the same in Argentina.

the church is growing everywhere else (save some places, of course) but is in decline in the West due to secularism.

The Holy See is aware even if most people in this country are not aware.


30 posted on 03/18/2013 8:10:12 AM PDT by stanne
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To: wolfman23601
If the most evangelical groups had actually showed up to the polls, Obama would not have taken Virginia, Florida, or Ohio.

Probably. But then we'd had an abortion-loving Father of same-sex "marriage" in the U.S. and author of the Obamacare model instead.

Can't much blame them. I didn't vote for the Leftist with the "R" next to his name, either.

31 posted on 03/18/2013 8:13:40 AM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: Don Corleone

Catholics went for BO 50% to 48%

Just the quickest click of the google button gives folks so much more than they want to know:

Bill Clinton / Al Gore Democratic 55-35/55-37/53-37[4] Bob Dole / Jack Kemp
2000 George W. Bush / Dick Cheney Democratic 52-46/50-49/50-47[4] Al Gore / Joe Lieberman
2004 George W. Bush / Dick Cheney Republican 52-48/51-48/47-52[4] John Kerry / John Edwards
2008 Barack Obama / Joe Biden Democrat 53-47/57-43/54-45[4] John McCain / Sarah Palin
2012 Barack Obama / Joe Biden Democrat 50-48[19] Mitt Romney / Paul Ryan


32 posted on 03/18/2013 8:14:29 AM PDT by stanne
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To: SeekAndFind

It was done away with in Vatican II.

When people are more Catholic than the Pope, watch out.


33 posted on 03/18/2013 8:15:50 AM PDT by stanne
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To: stanne

34 posted on 03/18/2013 8:18:19 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: stanne

RE: It was done away with in Vatican II.

Not sure what “done away” means.
Pope Benedict XVI issued a motu proprio called Summorum Pontificum on 7 July 2007, together with an accompanying letter to the world’s Bishops.

Benedict declared that “the Roman Missal promulgated by Paul VI is the ordinary expression of the lex orandi (law of prayer) of the Catholic Church of the Latin rite.

Nevertheless, the Roman Missal promulgated by St. Pius V and reissued by Pope John XXIII is to be considered as an extraordinary expression of that same ‘Lex orandi’”.

He further stated that “the 1962 Missal ... was never juridically abrogated”.

He replaced with new rules those of Quattuor Abhinc Annos on use of the older form: essentially, authorization for using the 1962 form for parish Masses and those celebrated on public occasions such as a wedding is devolved from the local bishop to the priest in charge of a church, and any priest of the Latin Rite may use the 1962 Roman Missal in “Masses celebrated without the people”, a term that does not exclude attendance by other worshippers, lay or clergy.

See here:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi_en.html


35 posted on 03/18/2013 8:27:06 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: fwdude

there is no such thing as a militant Catholic. Militant people who think they’re Catholic, maybe.

Practicing Catholics, those who know Catholicism, are a small percentage of people who call themselves Catholic. They are joined, by thinking and in formed people, with other practicing religious as a voting bloc.

There is, according to the papal biographer, George Weigel, no Catholic voting bloc any more.

Catholics are misled by western leadership and even misguided clergy.

When they make it their business to know then they practice their faith.

The Pope is aware of this, as were the last two, who wrote extensively on this.

Catholics do not militarily convert, there is a freedom of choice involved, as God gives freedom of choice.


36 posted on 03/18/2013 8:33:09 AM PDT by stanne
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To: Don Corleone

oh yes, and my dad thinks the Democratic party embodies Catholic teaching which I find to be completely ridiculous. He and I do not even speak anymore, I think he is so twisted about this issue.


37 posted on 03/18/2013 8:35:07 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

You are so right, but my point was, the libs think anyone who attends a church is a conservative, which is total garbage


38 posted on 03/18/2013 8:36:23 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: SeekAndFind

This is one of the best explanations for “Why I’m not a liberal, democrat, progressive, conservative, republican, etc.” I’ve read in a long time.


39 posted on 03/18/2013 8:37:38 AM PDT by GBA (Here in the Matrix, life is but a dream.)
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To: NoRedTape

Most people who call themselves Catholic, whether they are or not practicing Catholics, vote for the Dem by at least 50% going way back before this current virulently anti-Catholic media.

Latinos, that the USCCB love, went 76% Obama.

Of course they did! Many of them quit our parish and school after being told from the pulpit they cannot vote pro abortion and stay in the state of grace.

Of course they did. I’m attending Mass my whole life. I’ve heard “don’t participate in abortion by supporting these people” by one out of I don’t know how many priests.


40 posted on 03/18/2013 8:40:57 AM PDT by stanne
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To: SatinDoll
He did a weird bow thing, but didn’t feel the need to bend his knee to God Almighty, physically present in his hands upon the altar. HE. DID. NOT. GENUFLECT.

...He FREELY CHOOSES to not reverence Our Lord in the Eucharist upon the altar.

He also stumbled during Mass. He's seventy-six years old. Perhaps he has arthritis or a balance problem and was trying to avoid further mishap during the televised Mass. It's absurd to assume that Pope Francis (who prays 15 decades of the Rosary daily) would deliberately disrespect Our Lord.

There are elderly priests who have difficulty genuflecting without assistance, and people in attendance at the Tridentine Mass who receive Communion while standing (due to knee problems or other infirmities, NOT from any irreverent motive). What is disrespecful (and ignorant) is that "weird bow thing" comment.

What's with this rabid rush to "crucify him"? Give the man a chance, and PRAY FOR HIM.

41 posted on 03/18/2013 8:41:03 AM PDT by BlatherNaut
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To: stanne
there is no such thing as a militant Catholic. Militant people who think they’re Catholic, maybe.

Certainly many on this site. I don't know how many time I've been called a heretic by one merely because I'm an evangelical Christian.

Catholics are misled by western leadership and even misguided clergy.

When high-profile "Catholic" politicians can get away with the most evil stances imaginable and still be considered in "good standing" with the Church, it sends a powerful signal. Who's fault is that?

42 posted on 03/18/2013 8:45:52 AM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: SatinDoll
Videos show that he doesn’t genuflect when at the altar.

He is 76 years old. What if he can't genuflect do to problems in his knees? Shouldn't we give him the benefit of the doubt? It seems to me that Ann Barnhardt is quick to assume the worst about Francis. Did you notice his stumble when he went to greet Cardinal Sodano during his meeting with the College of Cardinals earlier this week? (See a photo in this article.)

43 posted on 03/18/2013 8:46:38 AM PDT by ELS
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To: PJammers

The Jesuits were a group founded by Ignatius of Loyola, now a saint.

They take vows of poverty and are fiercely devoted to and successful at education.

Many, not the Society itself, many in it, fell into “Liberation Theology” which presents as a problem in that it encourages the clergy and congregations to work with the government. In this case, using government money to provide for the poor, where charity is best left up to the free will of the individual, this places the Catholic Church in government, but also, worse, communist territory.

They rejected, also, the teachings of Pope Paul I in his prophetic, really, required reading by anyone seeking reason, and an explanation of the mess we are in in regard to the sexes, Humanae Vitae.

Pope Francis, a Jesuit, rejected all of this getting involved with the gov’t business and was out of favor with the Jesuits, most likely not out of favor with the original Jesuit thinking.

He is very well received by most Catholics and every one I’ve spoken with in the past few days.


44 posted on 03/18/2013 8:54:08 AM PDT by stanne
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To: fwdude

Well, I voted for him, and I still agree with everything you said in this post. A disaster.


45 posted on 03/18/2013 8:55:42 AM PDT by stanne
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To: Last Dakotan; SeekAndFind

2008 almost 55%

2012 53%

Non hispanic whites voted in 2012 around 60 percent GOP

likely their highest for GOP ever

up until Bush II they tended to vote democrat always except for Magnus

they have come around some but with latino Catholics forget about it..a lost cause at 70% or more rountinely

my group white Southern Baptists vote non Democrat around 90% in mid south and nearly universal in the Deep South

I would venture Charismatics and Texas/TN COC vote the same

Muslims prolly vote universal Democrat...lord the irony in that...medieval allied with progressive humanist?

anyhow

Peckerwood Catholics have made progress and I’m proud of them and I think this Pope even though Jesuit is no MaryKnoll style kook...and smells conservative to me anyhow as an outsider

a conservative pope always helps...we just need a church hierarchy to crack the whip on so many apostate adherents..and purge homosexuals

Catholics are so huge...this actually does matter...


46 posted on 03/18/2013 8:56:49 AM PDT by wardaddy (wanna know how my kin felt during Reconstruction in Mississippi, you fixin to find out firsthand)
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To: SeekAndFind

what is the entity of that study? If It is confined to the US, it makes sense and reflects my comment.

Can’t imagine Je. Witnesses have grown that much throughout the world. But if it’s just growth, then. . .


47 posted on 03/18/2013 8:58:27 AM PDT by stanne
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To: stanne

you have only heard one priest your entire life speak out against abortion?

i see catholic churches here in middle tn with abortion crosses out front a lot...St Henrys on 70 does it a good bit

I attend Thompson Station Southern Baptist

Pastor Tom is relentless on culture war and to a crowd that is 99% supportive

clergy has a duty to speak up


48 posted on 03/18/2013 9:01:55 AM PDT by wardaddy (wanna know how my kin felt during Reconstruction in Mississippi, you fixin to find out firsthand)
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To: SeekAndFind

Whatever happened at Vatican II, it was certainly concerned with the incomprehensive nature of the language of Mass, as evidenced by the statement you just made. I am an English professor in a Catholic school and I cannot read your post.

the Novus Ordo Mass in latin is wonderful, reverent and completely understandable.

When people vie for the Tridentine, I find them pushing for the invalidation of the Pope, which I find more dangerous than anything.


49 posted on 03/18/2013 9:02:46 AM PDT by stanne
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To: fwdude

The Church hierarchy does not consider them to be in good standing.


50 posted on 03/18/2013 9:05:22 AM PDT by Paladins Prayer
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