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CBO To Army: Scrap Ground Combat Vehicle, Buy German Puma
AOL ^ | April 2, 2013 | By Sydney J. Freedberg Jr.

Posted on 04/08/2013 11:12:18 AM PDT by 11th_VA

WASHINGTON: The Army's proposed Ground Combat Vehicle would offer less combat power, at a higher cost, than buying the German-made Puma already in production or even just upgrading the Army's existing M2 Bradley, according to the Congressional Budget Office. CBO issued a report today assessing different alternatives to upgrade Army heavy brigades' infantry fighting vehicles (IFVs), tank-like war machines with tracks and turrets designed to carry troops into combat.

The non-partisan CBO, Capitol Hill's in-house thinktank, has slammed the Ground Combat Vehicle program before, but never this hard. The office's analysts took the Army's own criteria and created a grading system that scored different combat vehicles for effectiveness. Using a scoring scheme that prioritized protection above all, followed by firepower, mobility, and passenger capacity, in that order, the CBO rated the Puma highest, followed by a notional upgrade to the Bradley, followed in distant third place by the GCV. (The Israeli-built Namer came in fourth). Even under an alternative grading scheme that weighted all four criteria equally -- putting much more emphasis on the capacity to carry troops -- the 6-passenger Puma still edged out the 9-passenger GCV, largely because of its superior firepower.

(Excerpt) Read more at defense.aol.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Government
KEYWORDS: bradey
Geez, why don't we just outsource the whole freekin Army ...
1 posted on 04/08/2013 11:12:18 AM PDT by 11th_VA
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To: 11th_VA

I hear the UN is available...


2 posted on 04/08/2013 11:13:10 AM PDT by FortWorthPatriot ("If this be treason, make the most of it." - Patrick Henry, 30 May 1765)
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To: 11th_VA; a fool in paradise; Slings and Arrows
That's right, we don't need no veeheecles!


3 posted on 04/08/2013 11:18:49 AM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: 11th_VA
Time to re-watch The Pentagon Wars".
4 posted on 04/08/2013 11:20:14 AM PDT by BipolarBob (Happy Hunger Games! May the odds be ever in your favor.)
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To: 11th_VA

The Bradley does have a very good record, doesn’t it?

Why the need for a new design?


5 posted on 04/08/2013 11:22:00 AM PDT by Hardraade (http://junipersec.wordpress.com (Vendetta))
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To: 11th_VA

Did they figure in the cost for a set of metric wrenches?


6 posted on 04/08/2013 11:23:02 AM PDT by Moltke ("I am Dr. Sonderborg," he said, "and I don't want any nonsense.")
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To: 11th_VA

It’s not just the Army. DOD procurement takes the price of everything into the stratosphere.


7 posted on 04/08/2013 11:23:23 AM PDT by Redmen4ever
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To: 11th_VA; Kartographer; Travis McGee
Geez, why don't we just outsource the whole freekin Army ...

That was instrumental in Rome's fall too, using Foederati, Foreigners replaced the Roman Legionnaires.

Needless to say, they didn't work out as well as actual Romans with skin in the game.

8 posted on 04/08/2013 11:23:33 AM PDT by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.-Sarah Palin)
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To: 11th_VA

Yeah buying the Fuchs from Germany really worked well < /sarcasm>


9 posted on 04/08/2013 11:24:07 AM PDT by big'ol_freeper ("Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" ~ Ronald Wilson Reagan)
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To: Hardraade

some times its better.. would love to have ad Panthers instead of Shermans ;)


10 posted on 04/08/2013 11:24:12 AM PDT by Bidimus1
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To: 11th_VA

Why not give the Army all those Father, I mean Homeland troop carriers?


11 posted on 04/08/2013 11:24:52 AM PDT by Dogbert41
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To: 11th_VA

Aye! The soldiers are all dead, but at least they died in an American made armored vehicle!

Kind of tough to choose side in this battle.


12 posted on 04/08/2013 11:25:18 AM PDT by listenhillary (Courts, law enforcement, roads and national defense should be the extent of government)
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To: Redmen4ever
DOD procurement takes the price of everything into the stratosphere.

I know, I work them too ... it's just I hate to see jobs go overseas ...

13 posted on 04/08/2013 11:26:51 AM PDT by 11th_VA (DRONES DON'T KILL, PRESIDENTS KILL ...)
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To: Hardraade
Why the need for a new design?

Because we have a new generation of officers who need high paying jobs to go to when they leave the Army.

14 posted on 04/08/2013 11:27:17 AM PDT by SeeSharp
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To: Moltke

Metric Wrenches???

How about converting toilet seats to metric — that will cost LOTS of Euros.


15 posted on 04/08/2013 11:30:51 AM PDT by Scrambler Bob ( Concerning bo -- that refers to the president. If I capitalize it, I mean the dog.)
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To: listenhillary

At least in using and protecting our own technology (ex the Clinton era) we can control the design information leakage and give our allies only those features we want to release.

Buying from the Germans means the EU and most probably Russia and China already know how they are made and how to defeat them.


16 posted on 04/08/2013 11:31:55 AM PDT by Reagan Disciple (Peace through Strength)
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To: Redmen4ever
DOD procurement takes the price of everything into the stratosphere.

Don't forget to consider that DOD procurement also makes a troop carrier weigh 75 tons (or whatever).

17 posted on 04/08/2013 11:40:37 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 11th_VA
Buy the German Puma

I hear they are VERY ERY EXPENSIVE, and only a few left.....PERFECT for the future OBAMA Army!


18 posted on 04/08/2013 11:55:35 AM PDT by DCBryan1
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To: 11th_VA

I remember the Armored Reconnaissance Scout Vehicle competition to select a replacement for the underpowered M114. It took place during the summer of 1974 at Ft. Knox. The soldiers really like the British Scimitar and the Canadian M113 1/2 aka Lynx officially the XM800T.
http://xbradtc.com/2011/02/16/the-lynx-m113-half/

There were several other competitors, to include a Sheridan chassis with rollbars. The Army ended up not selecting any of them. The argument against the Scimitar was that its engine was gasoline, not diesel.

the XM800T was also well liked:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM800_Armored_Reconnaissance_Scout_Vehicle

I’ve got some pictures somewhere at home from this testing. Another vehicle tested was the Lockheed Twister, XM800W.

I don’t think the Dutch YPR-765(?) variant was included in the testing.


19 posted on 04/08/2013 12:08:05 PM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: 11th_VA
Whoops....looks like CBO GRADED THE WRONG AFV

I'm sure there is more drama to come of this.

20 posted on 04/08/2013 12:14:13 PM PDT by DCBryan1
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To: DCBryan1

I have 2 0r 3 of this and variants in my ‘to be built’ pile of kits.


21 posted on 04/08/2013 12:14:38 PM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: DCBryan1

I have 2 0r 3 of this and variants in my ‘to be built’ pile of kits.


22 posted on 04/08/2013 12:14:38 PM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: 11th_VA

Build it low. Have the Infantry lie down crossways in it. Put a conex on top to ride in and store personal gear in. Make it capable of dropping the conex when assaulting. You don’t carry your ruck into an assault. Since the actual assaulting portion is small, really armor it.


23 posted on 04/08/2013 12:39:05 PM PDT by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: Hardraade

Per the article, the new vehicle could carry more people (at least the American version).

I also suspect with its huge weight (67 tons), it has better armor. And, there is a possibility of upgrading the primary weapon to 30mm...although I’m not sure this is necessary.


24 posted on 04/08/2013 12:41:04 PM PDT by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: blueunicorn6

If we’re not going to build our own weapons, then let’s just run up the white flag and let Iceland protect us. Remember the Roland? What did we buy, twenty of them?


25 posted on 04/08/2013 12:47:18 PM PDT by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: 11th_VA

I see the German version has an un-manned turret. This has been the Holy Grail of tank and armored vehicle design for a long time. Its safer not having a crew member way up top...but....

Having been a tank commander, I cannot concieve of not having the ability to see out of a nice tall turret. The vast majority of the time, you operate with the hatches open, and you can see with your own two eyes...you don’t have to rely on periscope blocks or gun sights. Its especially helpful in navigation.

I understand that we use gps now, so navigation isn’t as critical. But I still could not imagine not having a manned turret....especially in urban warfare. It would be extremely easy to sneak up on a ‘buttoned up’ vehicle.

I am also surprised that the missile launcher is taken out on the American model. Yes, these are rarely used against tanks. But, I have seen video of Iraq where a building (with a sniper) is cleared with a TOW missile.

Most amazing to me is that both of these vehicles appear to have a flat bottom. The recent trend seems to be a triangular bottom, to be more mine resistant. I assume some of the tremendous weight has gone into armoring the floor, instead.

The flat bottom and unmanned turret are attempts to lower the profile of the vehicle...which anticipates its use in an armored tank on tank style battle. And, the desire to use the 30 mm cannon indicates that this vehicle is really supposed to be a tank killer (vs just using its weapon for self defense and against othe personnel carriers). I’m not sure that’s the right direction to be going, in light of our current conflicts....seriously, could anyone imagine this 70 ton vehicle crawling along the valley floor in Afghanistan?


26 posted on 04/08/2013 12:57:39 PM PDT by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: Moltke

The military has been on the metric system since McNamara, if not before.


27 posted on 04/08/2013 3:27:55 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (I'll raise $2million for Sarah Palin's presidential run. What'll you do?)
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To: DCBryan1

Tamiya models rock!


28 posted on 04/08/2013 3:30:27 PM PDT by Sirius Lee (All that is required for evil to advance is for government to do "something")
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To: Bidimus1

Ah yes, the days when if was the Germans building the expensive overcomplicated armoured vehicle


29 posted on 04/08/2013 5:26:22 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (I think, therefore I am what I yam, and that's all I yam - "Popeye" Descartes)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Funny how that’s never mentioned on the metric system hate threads...


30 posted on 04/09/2013 1:31:45 AM PDT by Moltke ("I am Dr. Sonderborg," he said, "and I don't want any nonsense.")
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To: Oztrich Boy

Tiger and King Tiger yes (mause even more so) but the Panther was not too bad complex wise.


31 posted on 04/09/2013 11:25:24 AM PDT by Bidimus1
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To: Bidimus1

... getting rid of the interleaved wheels would have been a good idea though.


32 posted on 04/09/2013 11:49:01 AM PDT by Bidimus1
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