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"You Creationists are Not Qualified to Discuss Such Matters!"
http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=9&article=4546 ^ | 2012 Apologetics Press, Inc. All rights reserved. | Jeff Miller, Ph.D.

Posted on 04/11/2013 7:38:52 AM PDT by kimtom

"..A common quibble laid at the feet of the creationist is that he/she is not qualified to speak about scientific matters relating to the creation/evolution controversy..."

(Excerpt) Read more at apologeticspress.org ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: creationists; sourcetitlenoturl
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""..A common quibble laid at the feet of the creationist is that he/she is not qualified to speak about scientific matters relating to the creation/evolution controversy. For instance, Mark Isaak, the editor of The Index to Creationist Claims, stated that “for every creationist who claims one thing, there are dozens of scientists (probably more), all with far greater professional qualifications, who say the opposite” (2005, emp. added). Others assert that creationists make “the elementary mistake of trying to discuss a highly specialized field…in which they have little or no training” (Holloway, 2010). Do these assertions have any merit?

First, such assertions are ironic in light of other statements by some in the evolutionary community. For example, in the “General Tips” section of the article, “How to Debate a Creationist,” the Creationism versus Science Web site tells its followers, .. { Please see entire article}

1 posted on 04/11/2013 7:38:52 AM PDT by kimtom
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To: kimtom

Funny... this was the final “argument” from a libinlaw, regarding evolution -

“It must be true because so many learned people believe it.”


2 posted on 04/11/2013 7:40:17 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: MrB

My response: I don’t want to be in your stupid club anyway. You might want to buy a flame retardant suit for later though, libtard.


3 posted on 04/11/2013 7:42:52 AM PDT by jsanders2001
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To: kimtom

Creationists to everyone else: You are not qualified to go to heaven.


4 posted on 04/11/2013 7:43:13 AM PDT by DManA
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To: DManA

>>Creationists to everyone else: You are not qualified to go to heaven.<<

I’ll tell Pope Francis and the billions of Catholics you have spoken for God on this matter.


5 posted on 04/11/2013 7:44:27 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (LBJ declared war on poverty and lost. Barack Obama declared war on prosperity and won. /csmusaret)
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To: freedumb2003
No one is qualified to go to Heaven.

That's why we now have Jesus to speak for us.

6 posted on 04/11/2013 7:45:49 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: kimtom
Well it is amusing that even after years debating evolution so few creationists can even define it or show even a rudimentary knowledge of what it is and the evidence for it.

Many creationists believe that every present day species descended from those few “kinds” that could fit on a boat of known dimensions a few thousand years ago. This is evolution, and semi-common descent of species, at a speed never proposed or observed by any evolutionary biologist.

7 posted on 04/11/2013 7:46:32 AM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: ShadowAce

Yep, I’ll listen to the Ultimate Eyewitness...

God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.


8 posted on 04/11/2013 7:47:41 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: MrB
I hear this indirectly even here on FR.

And “they know who They are”.

“..It must be true because so many learned.......”

A Good point, because I found the “intellectuals” amongst us cannot take criticism.
The smarter they are the harder they fall.

Even Apostle Paul was accused...”.... too much learning has driven you mad..”
But those with strong Common Sense, seem not to be so affected..

Thanks!

9 posted on 04/11/2013 7:47:43 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: kimtom

Most ‘creationists’ need to take a Geology I course. Then we can talk.


10 posted on 04/11/2013 7:48:12 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: kimtom

This is more prevalent among liberals, but it is the same sense of imputed self worth -

I’m smart because I believe the same things that smart people believe.


11 posted on 04/11/2013 7:48:58 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: DManA

Very BAD Humour


12 posted on 04/11/2013 7:49:13 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: kimtom

Natural selection alters specific species over time, no question. But one species begating another species, i see no evidence of that.


13 posted on 04/11/2013 7:50:19 AM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: allmendream

There is a difference in macro and micro-evolution.


14 posted on 04/11/2013 7:51:45 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: onedoug

There’s plenty that you can talk to, then.

Just look up “affiliation of Christian geologists” and I’m sure one can “talk” with you.

What do you make of the evidence exposed at Mt St Helens?


15 posted on 04/11/2013 7:51:51 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: MrB
The “learned” majority used to believe that the Earth was a flat surface with edges and that the entire universe revolved around it.
16 posted on 04/11/2013 7:52:43 AM PDT by reg45 (Barack 0bama: Implementing class warfare by having no class.)
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To: central_va

-— But one species begating another species, i see no evidence of that. -—

Since when does science require evidence? /s


17 posted on 04/11/2013 7:53:14 AM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: kimtom
Define micro and macro evolution.

What mechanism stops micro evolution from becoming macro evolution over time?

Would the difference between a mouse and a rat be a micro change or a macro change?

18 posted on 04/11/2013 7:53:22 AM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: kimtom

The assumption is where the adaptive information comes from.

If you assume it was there to begin with, you come to one conclusions.
If you assume that it wasn’t there and beneficial information was added by random mutations, you’ll come to another conclusion.


19 posted on 04/11/2013 7:53:24 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

It requires an assumption and interpretation of all evidence through that assumption to prove that assumption.


20 posted on 04/11/2013 7:54:11 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: onedoug

Wrong!!!! you need to wake up.

Many Geologist are creationist.
You do not need “billions” of years For Geology

thanks


21 posted on 04/11/2013 7:55:08 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: allmendream
Well it is amusing that even after years debating evolution so few creationists can even define it or show even a rudimentary knowledge of what it is and the evidence for it.

Once they stop the "there are no transitional fossils" lie they might be worth debating.

22 posted on 04/11/2013 7:55:08 AM PDT by Strategerist
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To: kimtom
Many Geologist are creationist.

I think you misspelled "almost none" as "many." Do you have keyboard problems?

23 posted on 04/11/2013 7:55:50 AM PDT by Strategerist
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To: MrB

Do you have a link about Mt St Helens?

Thanks!


24 posted on 04/11/2013 7:58:51 AM PDT by moonhawk (Free Republic: Show prep for Rush Limbaugh.)
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To: allmendream
“...What mechanism stops micro evolution from becoming macro evolution over time?..”

You first bring me proof of evolution.
AND an example occurring today or in past of a species changing into another.

25 posted on 04/11/2013 7:59:00 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: Strategerist

Do your research


26 posted on 04/11/2013 8:00:03 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: MrB

One of my favorite quotes, this one from George Orwell:

“There are some ideas so wrong that only a very intelligent person could believe in them.”

Atheists (which unfortunately includes a lot of scientists who were trained to be atheists) only believe in nature but they have to ignore the laws of nature to believe what they believe.

Law of Biogenesis - Life only comes from life
Law of Causality - Every effect (the Big Bang) requires a pre-existent and greater cause.
Law of Conservation of Matter - Matter cannot be created (or destroyed) by natural processes
1st Law of Thermodynamics - Energy cannot be created (or destroyed) by natural processes
2nd Law of Thermodynamics - Everything in the universe is going from order to chaos.
Several Laws of Information, mainly this one - Information (code) can only be generated by intelligence.

When you throw the Creator out before you look at the evidence there’s only one conclusion to which you can come.


27 posted on 04/11/2013 8:00:06 AM PDT by schaef21
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To: moonhawk

I suggest “startpage.com” (instead of google)

“mt st helens canyon fast formation”


28 posted on 04/11/2013 8:01:47 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: kimtom
A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. (Albert Einstein)

I find this approach to be the best course with people that think science is the only answer.

29 posted on 04/11/2013 8:02:13 AM PDT by oldbrowser (They are marxists, don't call them democrats)
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To: kimtom
You need to learn a little about the history of science.

The evidence for a very old Earth came from Geology long before anyone on the Biology side adopted their models.

30 posted on 04/11/2013 8:02:21 AM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: freedumb2003

I spoke sarcastically. I’m with the Pope on this one.


31 posted on 04/11/2013 8:02:25 AM PDT by DManA
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To: schaef21

“When you throw the Creator out before you look at the evidence there’s only one conclusion to which you can come.”

Yeah, we shouldn’t be here... :)


32 posted on 04/11/2013 8:02:36 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: MrB
"...The assumption is where the adaptive information comes from...."

Very preceptive.

You are right. Thus, you have chest thumping going on.

33 posted on 04/11/2013 8:03:09 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: DManA

>>I spoke sarcastically. I’m with the Pope on this one.<<

LOL! You would be amazed at home nay FReepers say that with a straight face...

Sorry for the misunderstanding.


34 posted on 04/11/2013 8:03:39 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (LBJ declared war on poverty and lost. Barack Obama declared war on prosperity and won. /csmusaret)
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To: allmendream

The fossil record demonstrates stasis in species. The evidence is overwhelming. Creatures disappear from the fossil record unchanged from their original appearance. So much for micro-evolution.

And there is no plausible mechanism for macro.

I’m sick to death of the hand-waving of dogmatic evolutionists.


35 posted on 04/11/2013 8:03:39 AM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: kimtom
“proof”. A case in point that you are not qualified to discuss science. There is no proof in science - just evidence.

As for evidence for evolution we see it every day. You would call it micro evolution if you troubled to make yourself aware of the evidence and you were able to even define it.

As for the evidence of common descent of species - we have endogenous retroviral sequences - but I suppose I must explain the evidence to you......

Must I?

36 posted on 04/11/2013 8:04:21 AM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: allmendream

This thread fits you well.

Your MO is to exclude any who disagree with you as “unqualified” to discuss the issue.

Leftist bullying tactic on display.


37 posted on 04/11/2013 8:06:05 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: schaef21
2nd Law of Thermodynamics - Everything in the universe is going from order to chaos.

Oh geez, not this again. The above is a completely false and incorrect understanding of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, which, unfortunately, is pretty routine.

38 posted on 04/11/2013 8:06:25 AM PDT by Strategerist
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To: allmendream

The Geologic Column: Does It Exist?
by John Woodmorappe


39 posted on 04/11/2013 8:06:53 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: MrB
Well then you can provide evidence that you are qualified to discuss the issue.

Define micro and macro evolution and the mechanism that would stop micro from becoming macro over time.

Would you define the difference between a mouse and a rat as a micro difference or a macro difference?

When Reagan said that “the problem with our leftist friends isn't what they know, it is what they know that isn't so” was that a leftist bullying tactic? Why not?

40 posted on 04/11/2013 8:08:13 AM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: kimtom

I do not need to be an “expert” in what others believe but in what I believe.


41 posted on 04/11/2013 8:08:28 AM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: kimtom

I love it when they pull that one on me... and I get to explain that I have a Ph.D. in Molecular Biology, have done research that has been published, and have taught at the college level. Most liberals cannot comprehend how I can be a creationist!


42 posted on 04/11/2013 8:08:32 AM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: MrB

My argument is that anyone that has not actually read from beginning to end, and made an effort to understand, a published scientific paper in a peer-reviewed journal is not qualified to discuss any aspect of science.

Again, reading a magazine or newpaper article ABOUT science, or a press release about a scientific discovery, does not count.

This criteria probably disqualifies all but 2-3 people on this thread.


43 posted on 04/11/2013 8:09:27 AM PDT by Strategerist
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To: Former Fetus

What motivates you to do science?


44 posted on 04/11/2013 8:09:34 AM PDT by DManA
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To: Strategerist

Oh, then we should all just shut up to your intellectual superiority...

I suppose we’re “racists” as well?


45 posted on 04/11/2013 8:10:29 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: allmendream

Prediction 4.5: Molecular evidence - Endogenous retroviruses

Figure 4.4.1. Human endogenous retrovirus K (HERV-K) insertions in identical chromosomal locations in various primates (Reprinted from Lebedev et al. 2000, © 2000, with permission from Elsevier Science).

Endogenous retroviruses provide yet another example of molecular sequence evidence for universal common descent. Endogenous retroviruses are molecular remnants of a past parasitic viral infection. Occasionally, copies of a retrovirus genome are found in its host’s genome, and these retroviral gene copies are called endogenous retroviral sequences. Retroviruses (like the AIDS virus or HTLV1, which causes a form of leukemia) make a DNA copy of their own viral genome and insert it into their host’s genome. If this happens to a germ line cell (i.e. the sperm or egg cells) the retroviral DNA will be inherited by descendants of the host. Again, this process is rare and fairly random, so finding retrogenes in identical chromosomal positions of two different species indicates common ancestry.

Confirmation:

In humans, endogenous retroviruses occupy about 1% of the genome, in total constituting ~30,000 different retroviruses embedded in each person’s genomic DNA (Sverdlov 2000). There are at least seven different known instances of common retrogene insertions between chimps and humans, and this number is sure to grow as both these organism’s genomes are sequenced (Bonner et al. 1982; Dangel et al. 1995; Svensson et al. 1995; Kjellman et al. 1999; Lebedev et al. 2000; Sverdlov 2000). Figure 4.4.1 shows a phylogenetic tree of several primates, including humans, from a recent study which identified numerous shared endogenous retroviruses in the genomes of these primates (Lebedev et al. 2000). The arrows designate the relative insertion times of the viral DNA into the host genome. All branches after the insertion point (to the right) carry that retroviral DNA - a reflection of the fact that once a retrovirus has inserted into the germ-line DNA of a given organism, it will be inherited by all descendents of that organism.

The Felidae (i.e. cats) provide another example. The standard phylogenetic tree has small cats diverging later than large cats. The small cats (e.g. the jungle cat, European wildcat, African wildcat, blackfooted cat, and domestic cat) share a specific retroviral gene insertion. In contrast, all other carnivores which have been tested lack this retrogene (Futuyma 1998, pp. 293-294; Todaro et al. 1975).

Potential Falsification:

It would make no sense, macroevolutionarily, if certain other mammals (e.g. dogs, cows, platypi, etc.), had these same retrogenes in the exact same chromosomal locations. For instance, it would be incredibly unlikely for dogs to also carry the three HERV-K insertions that are unique to humans, as shown in the upper right of Figure 4.4.1, since none of the other primates have these retroviral sequences.

reference: Douglas Theobald, Ph.D.


46 posted on 04/11/2013 8:10:51 AM PDT by kimtom (USA ; Freedom is not Free)
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To: DManA

Can you answer “what is the purpose of Man?”

Same answer, I’m sure, for the poster in question...


47 posted on 04/11/2013 8:11:19 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
So you don't accept micro evolution?

What mechanism explains how an e.coli in the lab developed the ability to metabolize citric acid?

What mechanism explains differences in human populations?

What mechanism explains the development of antibiotic resistance to novel antibiotics?

48 posted on 04/11/2013 8:12:43 AM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: MrB
the final “argument” from a libinlaw

Ask your 'libinlaw' how that argument stood up in Copernicus' day. (I'm almost certain you're going to have to explain Copernicus to them first) “It must be true because so many learned people believe it.”

49 posted on 04/11/2013 8:13:02 AM PDT by tbpiper
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To: MrB

The guy is a PHD I think he can answer for himself.


50 posted on 04/11/2013 8:13:10 AM PDT by DManA
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