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And How Many Bullets Do You Need?
American Thinker ^ | 04/20/2013 | Jim Yardley

Posted on 04/21/2013 6:42:25 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

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To: RKV

Well I’m actually a member of the force and I know that there aren’t any policies or “policies” anywhere that advocate anything other than well aimed shots. To do so would be to invite lawsuits up the yinyang as well as possible prison time.

Police officers generally are poor shots and tactically illiterate, it has nothing to do with policy.


101 posted on 04/21/2013 5:28:25 PM PDT by Ajnin (Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnocet!)
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To: SeekAndFind
It took a dozen or more cops, who are trained professionals, who practice on at least a weekly basis with their firearms, to fire 200 rounds before he finally died.

Highly trained?

They had a billion dollars worth of Law enforcement in the immediate area, National Guard, FBI, CIA, animal control, NSA, code enforcement, transit police, cops were bussed in on school buses from 30 surrounding cities, helicopters, dogs, swat teams and no doubt military drones circling over head.

BTW, didn't #1 die from being ran over by #2, as #2 then fled and lost the pursuers?

102 posted on 04/21/2013 5:33:49 PM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: Ajnin

So you need it in writing for it to be a policy, huh? Not me. Not when I read the reports on how many shots fired - at least by LAPD, which is what I’m familiar with from my older brother. Specifically here’s some recent LAPD stats. http://www.lapdonline.org/assets/pdf/2009YearEndReportFinal.pdf

Between 2005 and 2008 LAPD on average managed to miss completely or unintentionally discharge 24 of 70 times there was a shooting (34%) which goes to my point about marksmanship.

With respect to my point about not caring what’s downrange by virtue of shooting way too many rounds try the following...
In 2009 there were 42 officer involved shootings, and over 85 officers discharged their weapons in these shootings (LAPD discounts unintentional discharges and animal shootings, me not so much, but I don’t have all their numbers). So odds are if you’re getting shot at, it’s by 2 officers. I calculated the number of rounds fired. The average was approximately 9 per engagement (4.4 per officer), and the average range at engagement was 16-20 feet. That is way too many at that distance. Making a reasonable assumption, given weapons used (mostly pistols ranging in caliber from 9mm to 45ACP) at typical distances it should at worst case take 3 rounds to down a perp on average even allowing for the the obvious difficulties of armed combat.

Since my brother has been shot twice in the line of duty I do have some sympathy for what police officers go through. Then again, no one is forcing them to take the job.


103 posted on 04/21/2013 6:07:38 PM PDT by RKV (He who has the guns makes the rules)
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To: ASA Vet

How about that! Well glad you sent him up the river.

LLS


104 posted on 04/21/2013 6:22:48 PM PDT by LibLieSlayer (FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!)
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To: Sherman Logan

I copied it from a history website. I have been fighting for the 2nd for 50 years... I will research the quote further. I did not create it. Those that want to steal our guns hate Washington anyway.

LLS


105 posted on 04/21/2013 6:25:57 PM PDT by LibLieSlayer (FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!)
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To: Forty-Niner

I found this...

“In all the time that I’ve spent in (8 yrs.), the usual minimum for anyone with an M16 or M4 is 210 rounds (7 x 30 rds mags.) For the M249 SAW, the basic load is 400 rounds (2 x 200 rds drum or 4 x 100 rds.). For the M240, it’s usually the same as the SAW.

Source(s):

U.S. Army Veteran (2001 - 2009)”

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091018115954AAMtSTq


106 posted on 04/21/2013 6:31:22 PM PDT by LibLieSlayer (FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

“Dude... the guys down at the motor pool can fix that... they have a bitchin’ set of tools”

LLS


107 posted on 04/21/2013 6:32:31 PM PDT by LibLieSlayer (FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!)
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To: Gaffer

I agree completely.

LLS


108 posted on 04/21/2013 6:33:27 PM PDT by LibLieSlayer (FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!)
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To: castlebrew

Yep... that is why I defined “too much”! ;-)

LLS


109 posted on 04/21/2013 6:34:12 PM PDT by LibLieSlayer (FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!)
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To: Wurlitzer

Thanks for your post - you get it.

As glad that I am that the cops got this terrorist, and did so using great equipment and reasonable training (not expert perhaps, but they finally got the job done) - I looked at those videos as being on the receiving end of it if the cops and Feds ever get turned to the dark side.

Even with semi-autos and large magazines, an individual is seriously out gunned. Also shows the need to have a support group. Otherwise when they come to your house for your guns your just another nutcase with an “arsenal” of weapons and ammo.


110 posted on 04/21/2013 6:34:19 PM PDT by 21twelve ("We've got the guns, and we got the numbers" adapted and revised from Jim M.)
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To: LibLieSlayer

Agreed.But that does not make fake quotations ok.


111 posted on 04/21/2013 7:27:51 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: SeekAndFind
From Jeff Cooper's “Commentaries”, vol. 1, No. 9 (1993):

“Family member Dr. Werner Weissenhofer reports from Vienna. It seems that a felon armed with a .357 revolver robbed a bank. As he left the bank, he was accosted by a policeman whom he murdered with one shot. Great excitement ensued, with the felon taking hostages and racing madly around from one store to another. When the forces of law and order had been mobilized and surrounded the goblin, a policeman volunteered to trade himself to the goblin for two hostages. This offer was accepted, at which time the felon fired at the policeman and seriously wounded him. The forces of law and order opened up with everything they had, which was mostly AUG and Glock fire. Shortly, the goblin killed himself with one round. He had fired three times and achieved three hits. The police, according to their official report, fired 1,261 rounds without drawing blood.”

112 posted on 04/21/2013 8:34:54 PM PDT by MasterGunner01
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To: LibLieSlayer

Pretty much what I remember from the 60’s, only we used the M-60, not the M240.....favorite was carry as much as you could and not crap out..........


113 posted on 04/21/2013 11:10:21 PM PDT by Forty-Niner (A Strong Man Armed who guards his home, lives in peace.)
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To: LibLieSlayer

True enough.

But there are a LOT of phony quotes out there, often assigned to Washington, Jefferson or Lincoln, and unfortunately generally put forward by conservatives. After all, liberals don’t really consider these men to be admirable or authoritative.

Most conservatives who repeat the fake quotes don’t do so on purpose. It’s just that when you’re engaged in debate, some ammo is too good to check.


114 posted on 04/22/2013 3:17:27 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

With all that is wrong with the world... worry about something that matters... the left and all media hate us and they have NEVER spoken a word of the entire truth... just enough truth to make their evil taste palatable.

LLS


115 posted on 04/22/2013 4:28:00 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer (FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!)
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To: Forty-Niner

Amen!

LLS


116 posted on 04/22/2013 4:28:55 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer (FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!)
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To: OCMike

“Fox News had the Watertown Chief on last night and he mentioned that the rounds fired were “dummy rounds”. I’m an ex SWAT Team member and I have never heard of “DUMMY ROUNDS(caps added) being used in a hostile tactical action. I’m not doubting his word, I just never heard of this.”

“Dummy Rounds” refers to the words spoken by the Watertown Chief, not ammo.

Poor, ickle, Liberal pol is embarrassed because a mere “untermenschen” found the terrorist instead of the many armed & armored LEO’s he had on his payroll.


117 posted on 04/22/2013 6:48:58 AM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is necessary to examine principles."..)
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To: SeekAndFind

I read that the elder Tsarnaev was killed after having been tackled by the cops, then the younger drove the SUV at the whole lot of them, running over and killing his brother as he crashed the line.

If true, that means 200 rounds did not even kill the b*stard. It took an SUV.


118 posted on 04/22/2013 6:51:28 AM PDT by Uncle Miltie (Leftists' favorite Mass Murderer: Kermit Gosnell)
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To: wita

Well, Obaba is buying/bought 2 billion rounds of small arms ammo to use on non-military people—one may assume to shoot his own citizens with (Geneva Convention bans hollow point ammo by the U.S.Military).

Considering that Obaba has inside info about what is/may be coming down the pipe, and so is buying ammo in a frenzy, one must assume it wise for the citizens (victims?) to also buy reasonable amounts for home and family protection, even if they do not hunt do other firearm related hobbies.


119 posted on 04/22/2013 6:57:59 AM PDT by OldArmy52 (The question is not whether Obama ever lies, but whether he ever tells the truth.)
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To: RKV

If cops were TRULY trained professionals, particularly the urban cops, they would not carry machine guns. Automatic firearms tend be be “spray and pray” devices of enormous hazard to innocent bystanders.

Semi-auto weapons are VASTLY more appropriate. Even the U.S.Military knows that (though maybe the SS, er, DHS doesn’t have a clue) what with their order of thousands of machine guns (full auto ‘assault rifles’) DHS deems appropriate “for personal protection”.


120 posted on 04/22/2013 7:02:27 AM PDT by OldArmy52 (The question is not whether Obama ever lies, but whether he ever tells the truth.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Some big city cops practice about once a year and 10 rounds.
Look at NY City and when they shot so many round last year and hit others from a close distance.

200 rounds is a lot and it shows how bad they are and if that were military then they would be in for target practice right away


121 posted on 04/22/2013 7:07:25 AM PDT by manc (Marriage =1 man + 1 woman,when they say marriage equality then they should support polygamy)
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To: Travis McGee

you see the student dopes who were cheering and clapping, having a party.
?
The idiots claiming it’s over and still have not go it into their heads how the city and Govt took control, closed down everything , looked to be like the walking dead scene and still can’t admit this was Islamic terrorism.


122 posted on 04/22/2013 7:09:35 AM PDT by manc (Marriage =1 man + 1 woman,when they say marriage equality then they should support polygamy)
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To: OCMike

ever met and worked in Boston and their cops?

Surprised they’re allowed to have guns in that dump of a city


123 posted on 04/22/2013 7:10:26 AM PDT by manc (Marriage =1 man + 1 woman,when they say marriage equality then they should support polygamy)
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To: manc

Amazing times we live in.


124 posted on 04/22/2013 7:11:46 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: DariusBane

When the cops are at the range, I usually pack up and step back.

Had a few AD from the local cops that convinced me I needed to be elsewhere. The local police trainer is a good guy,and encourages them to join the range and practice on their own time. Some do, many will not.


125 posted on 04/22/2013 7:15:15 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Travis McGee

I was stunned to see so many happy and saying it’s all over , they have no idea but having lived in Boston in the past then I does not surprise me.

I told my wife that if was here I would not stay in for all those days, to hell with that.


126 posted on 04/22/2013 7:16:53 AM PDT by manc (Marriage =1 man + 1 woman,when they say marriage equality then they should support polygamy)
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To: LZ_Bayonet

“If those were not live rounds fired at the suspect/boat, I would suggest the volume of blank fire, or live fire off target, was “INTIMIDATION”, i.e. this is what you face if you resist.”

The above is a good example of why the Gun-Toters-N-Black-Armor have become the object of s much derision.

What’s to fear from those who can’t hit/kill when they have a numerical advantage in excess of a dozen to one, and ‘spray & pray’ instead of shoot with well practiced “aimed fire”.

Aimed fire works - ask a Marine.

Better yet, ask him what the Gunny would have to say about the Watertown shooting skills.


127 posted on 04/22/2013 7:17:01 AM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is necessary to examine principles."..)
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To: SeekAndFind
How many bullets do I need...?

More than there is....

128 posted on 04/22/2013 7:20:00 AM PDT by Victor (If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert." -David Ben-Gurion, the first Prime Minister)
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To: SeekAndFind
"In a man-to-man fight, the winner is he who has one more round in his magazine" - Erwin Rommel

129 posted on 04/22/2013 7:40:51 AM PDT by Gritty (The Constitution's purpose is to insulate personal freedom from a lust for power-Judge A. Napolitano)
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To: SeekAndFind
And How Many Bullets Do You Need?

Enough to fill all the brass cases I've collected.

130 posted on 04/22/2013 10:46:33 AM PDT by TigersEye (If babies had guns they wouldn't be aborted)
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To: DariusBane

What is amazing is that there were “two” (2) suspects against all those police and amidst all that, the police fired hundrends of rounds to eventually get one and the second a little later. What would they have done if one of those terrorists were genuinely skilled operators? What would they have done if there had been six more to make a team? At the way things went two were a handful for the police. Police are not skilled with their equipment but they were trained and most had initial training many years ago. Most of them qualify twice a year, fire maybe close to 100 rounds per shoot, and if they get about 3/4 on target in timed sequences that are so long it’s silly they pass.


131 posted on 04/23/2013 12:09:04 PM PDT by Strontium90
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To: Strontium90

Police operate on the principle of local superiority. Many are barely proficient otherwise.


132 posted on 04/23/2013 12:19:25 PM PDT by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept?)
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To: SeekAndFind

The Watertown police chief on with Wolf Blitzer stated that the 2 brothers were in separate vehicles when the shoot out took place. The older brother left his vehicle and after running out of ammo the police were in process of handcuffing him when the other brother ran over him with the Mercedes and drug him a distance.

So they didn’t get him after 200 rounds.


133 posted on 04/23/2013 12:24:41 PM PDT by wordsofearnest (Proper aim of giving is to put the recipient in a state where he no longer needs it. C.S. Lewis)
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To: SeekAndFind

Who cares? It is supposed to be about how many rounds I want.


134 posted on 04/23/2013 12:25:20 PM PDT by Little Ray (How did I end up in this hand-basket, and why is it getting so hot?)
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To: wordsofearnest

RE: The Watertown police chief on with Wolf Blitzer stated that the 2 brothers were in separate vehicles when the shoot out took place. The older brother left his vehicle and after running out of ammo the police were in process of handcuffing him when the other brother ran over him with the Mercedes and drug him a distance.

______________________________________

Yes.

Tamerlan (The older brother) exhausted his ammunition and had been taken down by the police and was being handcuffed.

Dzokhar drove the stolen SUV directly at the police who jumped out of the way. Dzokhar deliberately ran over his brother and dragged him for several hundred yards. (Was this a way of silencing Tamerlan to prevent him from being interrogated as to his associates?)


135 posted on 04/23/2013 12:28:15 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind
And How Many Bullets Do You Need?

All of them.

136 posted on 04/23/2013 12:46:21 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (I am a dissident. Will you join me? My name is John....)
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To: LibLieSlayer

maybe “too much” = “way more than I can carry and still be able to shoot”...


137 posted on 04/26/2013 6:57:13 PM PDT by castlebrew (Gun Control means hitting where you're aiming!))
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To: castlebrew
Do you not train? Do you not have friends or a plan in case the worst happens? No, there is no such thing as too much ammo... just like there is no such thing as too much gold... or too much money. If our dollar collapses... brass and lead will be worth more than gold. Look at the prices of today... they will seem bargain basement if our economy collapses. Defense... meat procurement... barter... it is a great commodity for many reasons. The very best reason is that obama and the communists do not want you to have any.

LLS

138 posted on 04/27/2013 4:57:53 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer (FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!)
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To: LibLieSlayer

concur, of course. forgot the emphasis on the “maybe”.


139 posted on 05/03/2013 8:20:15 PM PDT by castlebrew (Gun Control means hitting where you're aiming!))
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To: castlebrew

The worst part around here is how my supply dwindles as I help friends who didn’t prepare earlier. It is up to them now.

LLS


140 posted on 05/04/2013 4:11:28 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer (FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!)
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