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2nd child of Pa. couple dies after only praying
AP Yahoo ^ | 4/23/13 | MICHAEL RUBINKAM and MARYCLAIRE DALE

Posted on 04/23/2013 10:36:56 AM PDT by OKRA2012

PHILADELPHIA (AP) — A couple serving probation for the 2009 death of their toddler after they turned to prayer instead of a doctor could face new charges now that another son has died.
Herbert and Catherine Schaible belong to a fundamentalist Christian church that believes in faith healing. They lost their 8-month-old son, Brandon, last week after he suffered from diarrhea and breathing problems for at least a week, and stopped eating. Four years ago, another son died from bacterial pneumonia.

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: Pennsylvania
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1 posted on 04/23/2013 10:36:56 AM PDT by OKRA2012
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To: OKRA2012

slow learners


2 posted on 04/23/2013 10:38:10 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: stuartcr

Both look like they rode the short bus.


3 posted on 04/23/2013 10:39:18 AM PDT by Slump Tester (What if I'm pregnant Teddy? Errr-ahh -Calm down Mary Jo, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it)
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To: OKRA2012

prayer works, its helped give us good doctors and good medicine


4 posted on 04/23/2013 10:40:42 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do ithat when I have a fire.)
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To: Slump Tester

I guess they don’t realize God put doctors on Earth to help out in that regard


5 posted on 04/23/2013 10:42:06 AM PDT by jsanders2001
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To: OKRA2012

Ok, I’ll bite......which one is the wife?


6 posted on 04/23/2013 10:42:55 AM PDT by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it)
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To: OKRA2012
Spay & Neuter the two to stop from happening again.
7 posted on 04/23/2013 10:43:36 AM PDT by SandRat (Duty - Honor - Country! What else needs said?)
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To: Slump Tester
Both look like they rode the short bus.

Yup, definitely a pair of window lickers.

8 posted on 04/23/2013 10:43:38 AM PDT by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it)
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To: driftdiver

The odds are extremely against two babies dying even without medical attention.

We may have a case of Munchausen by proxy syndrome or baby murderers.


9 posted on 04/23/2013 10:44:24 AM PDT by OKRA2012
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To: stuartcr

There was a woman in a youtube video that was reported here that made the claim that we need to get over this idea that the kids belong to the parents and they are really the children of all of us.

I disagree with her and I defend this couple’s right to pursue healing of their children as they see fit. Only God is above the parents in the parenting hierarchy. Both of these kids were their kids to raise as they saw fit. They alone are responsible for their actions and responsible to God.

Now, if they were actively abusing their kids I might feel differently, but my bar is pretty high on that one too. It is a principle thing: They are not my kids.


10 posted on 04/23/2013 10:44:57 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: Slump Tester

It’s really pitiful


11 posted on 04/23/2013 10:45:17 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: driftdiver

prayer works, its helped give us good doctors and good medicine


It healed my wife’s back without doctors. It’s an interesting story. I strongly see this as a religious freedom issue.


12 posted on 04/23/2013 10:45:42 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: cuban leaf

What if a child is hit by a car and is critically injured, can a parent refuse have the child treated by medical professionals?


13 posted on 04/23/2013 10:48:31 AM PDT by OKRA2012
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To: cuban leaf

Did she have a bullet in it? Jes’ aksin’.


14 posted on 04/23/2013 10:49:21 AM PDT by Safetgiver ( Islam makes barbarism look genteel.)
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To: cuban leaf

seriously? You don’t have a problem with people not bringing their children to a doctor? Even parents in the most primitive parts of south america and africa will bring their kids to a doctor.


15 posted on 04/23/2013 10:50:20 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: jsanders2001
You might have heard the old story:

Joe watched the weather forecast, and disregarded the flood warnings, saying "God will protect me".

The rains came.

When the water was a foot deep, the police came by and tried to help him escape. "No - God will protect me", he said.

When the water was window-deep, the rescue people came by in a boat and tried to help him escape. "No - God will protect me", he said.

When the water was roof-deep, he climbed out onto the roof. More rescuers came by in boats, but "No - God will protect me", he said.

The water covered the roof and Joe was swept away and drowned.

At the Pearly Gates, he asked God why He wasn't there to protect old Joe.

God said, "Well, what do you want? I sent a weather forecaster, a police squad, and two boats for you!"

16 posted on 04/23/2013 10:53:42 AM PDT by Izzy Dunne (Hello, I'm a TAGLINE virus. Please help me spread by copying me into YOUR tag line.)
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To: OKRA2012

They look like they are related to each other. I wonder if they are cousins.


17 posted on 04/23/2013 10:54:12 AM PDT by forgotten man (forgotten man)
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To: OKRA2012

What if a child is hit by a car and is critically injured, can a parent refuse have the child treated by medical professionals?


My personal take is, yes. But I don’t think I would get support from my government on that one.

Again, it is a principle thing for me. Principles are more important than life itself, and before the state became all powerful this was the type of decision that was left to the parents. We may have disagreed with their decision, but we defended their right to make it. Thing is, Christians see this life as infinitely brief. All men live the exact same length of time. We call that time “today”. None of us have a lasting future - in this body. If ones parents make poor choices when you are in their care, you may see fewer “todays” but they will answer to God for their misshandling of your future.

And to one degree or another, we all misshandle our children’s future. I don’t like getting between parents and their children except in “over the top” circumstances (e.g. the mother in Carrie).


18 posted on 04/23/2013 10:54:28 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: cuban leaf
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

That said, so-called "faith healing" (healing or resurrection ^because^ of the faith of another) went away with the last of the Apostles.

19 posted on 04/23/2013 10:55:02 AM PDT by Cletus.D.Yokel (Catastrophic Anthropogenic Climate Alteration: The acronym explains the science.)
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To: OKRA2012

God equips some of us with the ability to treat others medically. Belief in faith-based healing had to meet limits when sick children are involved.


20 posted on 04/23/2013 10:56:00 AM PDT by ScottinVA (Gun control: Steady firm grip, target within sights, squeeze the trigger slowly...)
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To: OKRA2012

Usually has nothing to do with religion and more to do with control.


21 posted on 04/23/2013 10:56:43 AM PDT by AppyPappy (You never see a massacre at a gun show.)
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To: cuban leaf

“Now, if they were actively abusing their kids I might feel differently, but my bar is pretty high on that one too. It is a principle thing: They are not my kids.”

Florida has the Baker Act. If any government official thinks you’re a danger to yourself or others, they can have you locked up involuntarily for mental evaluation. I’d say if they’ve already lost one child to their prayer cure that something else is going on here. They need evaluation by an independent third party. There are all types of abuse and not all are readily apparent. Clearly, though, they are a danger to their children.

By the way, this Baker act almost never gets used. I think they caution deputies and police against it. Some guy nailed his penis to a post. They didn’t use it. Later, he chopped himself up. Clearly, there was a problem that needed evaluation. But it costs lots of money to put somebody into a mental facility.


22 posted on 04/23/2013 10:57:12 AM PDT by Gen.Blather
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To: stuartcr

You don’t have a problem with people not bringing their children to a doctor?


I have a problem with a LOT of stuff people do regarding the care of their children. But it is none of my business and I am not God. Children are God given. How responsibly the parents handle that is their choice, not mind. Who am I to presume that my sensibilities are the right ones? However, in clearcut situations, the parents’ authority must be usurped by someone else. But it must cross a clear line. Since I believe God heals miraculously, I don’t want to insert my “sensibilities” about doctors, God and healing between a parent and their children.

I see it as meddlin in the lives of others.


23 posted on 04/23/2013 10:58:40 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: driftdiver

“I believe in letting nature take its course, but I think if a deer knew how to fix a broken leg, it would.” - James Hetfield (Metallica)*

* raised by Christian Scientist parents


24 posted on 04/23/2013 10:58:41 AM PDT by ZirconEncrustedTweezers (Some people take there grammar way to seriously.)
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To: Cletus.D.Yokel

That said, so-called “faith healing” (healing or resurrection ^because^ of the faith of another) went away with the last of the Apostles.


Since I’ve experienced it, I’ll have to disagree on that one. However, your quoting of the constitution is where I am coming from on this. It is none of our business. They are not our children.

Now, if the parents are actively killing them, that is a different matter.


25 posted on 04/23/2013 11:00:14 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: cuban leaf

Thanks for the thorough and honest response.

No, do you believe that parent of a dead minor child can refuse an autopsy on the child in cases where the child died from some type of physical trauma or mysterious circumstances?

Keep in mind that an autopsy is conduced by a medical doctor.


26 posted on 04/23/2013 11:00:48 AM PDT by OKRA2012
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To: Gen.Blather

Yeah, it sounds like the Baker act bar is pretty high. And if these folks have already lost one child before this one, maybe they need to be neutered.


27 posted on 04/23/2013 11:01:41 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: OKRA2012

Christian Science is closer to Scientology than Christianity.

Here are some famous Christian Science followers:

Mary Baker Eddy, Danielle Steele, Richard Bach, Val Kilmer, Ellen DeGeneres, Robin Williams, Robert Duvall, Bruce Hornsby, Mike Nesmith, Jim Henson, Alan Shepherd, Milton Berle, Ginger Rogers, Marilyn Monroe, Marlon Brando, Gene Autry, Frank Capra, H.R. Haldeman, John Ehrlichman.


28 posted on 04/23/2013 11:02:04 AM PDT by Linda Frances (Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness)
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To: OKRA2012

No, do you believe that parent of a dead minor child can refuse an autopsy on the child in cases where the child died from some type of physical trauma or mysterious circumstances?


No. At this point it becomes a legal, not medical matter. Someone died and it is the responsibility of those charged with our protection to determine if there is a murderer among us. A dead body is probable cause for an autopsy.


29 posted on 04/23/2013 11:03:10 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: cuban leaf

Thanks for the thorough and honest response.

Now, do you believe that parent of a dead minor child can refuse an autopsy on the child in cases where the child died from some type of physical trauma or mysterious circumstances?

Keep in mind that an autopsy is conduced by a medical doctor.


30 posted on 04/23/2013 11:04:17 AM PDT by OKRA2012
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To: stuartcr; cuban leaf

Don’t give the kids food; just pray for them?

Don’t give them water; just pray for them?

Don’t give them warm winter clothing; just pray for them?

I set the bar a lot higher than most liberals, but I would see it as EVERY parent’s responsibility to provide their children with food, shelter and medical care. If they fail, they need to be held accountable.

Seems to me these two never got as far in their Bible reading as James 2:14-17.

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

I know it’s kind of at the end of the book and they don’t exactly look like “people of letters,” but I’d have hoped somebody would have shared this passage with them.


31 posted on 04/23/2013 11:04:56 AM PDT by henkster (I have one more cow than my neighbor. I am a kulak.)
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To: cuban leaf
When minor children are left to die painful deaths from common illnesses that are easily curable it is the ultimate case of child neglect, IMHO.

The state of Oregon has changed laws that protect faith healing over a period of years because of a group in Oregon City called the Followers of Christ Church, they have let many of their children die of ailments easily treated.

Prosecutors, lawmakers advocate ending protections for faith healers

32 posted on 04/23/2013 11:05:30 AM PDT by jazusamo ("Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent." -- Adam Smith)
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To: Cletus.D.Yokel; All

When religion injures another, that’s when it is fine to step in....we would not allow parents to sacrifice their children, and we should not allow them to murder them by failure to act.

As for faith healing, special healing has ceased. But, God can still heal miraculously, just not in the faith healer way.


33 posted on 04/23/2013 11:06:48 AM PDT by rwfromkansas ("Carve your name on hearts, not marble." - C.H. Spurgeon)
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To: OKRA2012

Oh Boy! These are difficult cases as a lot of issues arise, Freedom of Religion, parental rights etc. etc. That being said I would fall on the side of state intervention as the child cannot meaningfully take steps to obtain his own medical care and treatment. If prayer worked my daughter would be alive today.(She also had the finest medical care.)


34 posted on 04/23/2013 11:07:49 AM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: forgotten man
They look like they are related to each other. I wonder if they are cousins.

Headline says Pennsylvania, not West Virginia.


35 posted on 04/23/2013 11:08:03 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: OKRA2012; metmom; boatbums
What if a child is hit by a car and is critically injured, can a parent refuse have the child treated by medical professionals?

Good question really. We should have enough faith to believe for the supernatural as well as to believe f God is not required to do the supernatural and can use the natural (as Isaiah and Paul once recommended), and can use doctors as well as mechanics. However, this is a 1st amendment issue, and in which there are both guarantees and limitations of freedom.

Spanking is to be allowed, but not abuse, and in the case of a child being hit by a car and critically injured, refusal to allow normal treatment by medical professionals would be wrong as a norm, as i think faith needs to be exercised before medical professionals arrive, and if need remains, then we need to have enough faith that they will help the child.

36 posted on 04/23/2013 11:08:13 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Linda Frances

These parents are not Christian Scientists. They belong to a fundamentalist church.


37 posted on 04/23/2013 11:08:44 AM PDT by NorseWood
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To: cuban leaf

“No. At this point it becomes a legal, not medical matter.”

In this case, the parents where under community supervision (probation) which as is a legal matter. And by refusing to seek medical attention for the second child, they violated the terms of their probation.

Therefore, this case is a legal matter.

Do you still believe that these parents were acting within their rights by not seeking medical attention for their child?


38 posted on 04/23/2013 11:11:16 AM PDT by OKRA2012
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To: OKRA2012

God gave us intelligence,too - obviously these two missed out.


39 posted on 04/23/2013 11:12:10 AM PDT by bigbob
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To: OKRA2012

Even Saint Luke was a doctor, folks.


40 posted on 04/23/2013 11:13:28 AM PDT by Albion Wilde (Don't believe any rumors in Washington, DC until they are officially denied.)
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To: cuban leaf

They can rely on prayer alone for themselves. For children its child neglect.

God gave us doctors.


41 posted on 04/23/2013 11:15:52 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do ithat when I have a fire.)
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To: cuban leaf

> Principles are more important than life itself

Anyone withholding medical care from their children and letting them die, has no principles.


42 posted on 04/23/2013 11:17:07 AM PDT by soycd
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To: OKRA2012

Prayer and technology are not mutually exclusive. The Good Lord was a firm believer in healers. Why these two think they know better is beyond me.


43 posted on 04/23/2013 11:19:14 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: cuban leaf

You don’t think that neglect is an action?


44 posted on 04/23/2013 11:19:39 AM PDT by stormer
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To: cuban leaf
Since I believe God heals miraculously, I don’t want to insert my “sensibilities” about doctors, God and healing between a parent and their children.

There's no doubt that God can heal miraculously, but sometimes His will may be that you go to a doctor. Relying on prayer alone and refusing to seek competent medical treatment is putting God to the test, something the Bible warns against.

45 posted on 04/23/2013 11:21:12 AM PDT by ken in texas (I was taught to respect my elders but it keeps getting harder to find any.)
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To: jwalsh07

Jesus was a healer.


46 posted on 04/23/2013 11:21:22 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do ithat when I have a fire.)
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To: cuban leaf

Well I fervently believe in the power of prayer. God oftens answer them. But not always. It is a mystery we cannot fathom.

But I also believe God gave us brains, doctors, life and liberty. Hopefully these people will be charged and do jail time. This is not right. It is not only about the parents. We have two dead children. What about them?


47 posted on 04/23/2013 11:22:02 AM PDT by plain talk
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To: jwalsh07

Excuse me, Jesus IS a healer. I was referring specifically to the times he healed people during his 3 years of preaching.


48 posted on 04/23/2013 11:22:16 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do ithat when I have a fire.)
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To: ZirconEncrustedTweezers

“I think if a deer knew how to fix a broken leg, it would.”

I like this one...”If babies had guns there would be no abortions”.


49 posted on 04/23/2013 11:22:34 AM PDT by caww
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To: cuban leaf

I’m sure you draw the line at abortion though.


50 posted on 04/23/2013 11:22:44 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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