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Army says no to more tanks, but Congress insists
Associated Presstitutes ^ | 04/28/2013 | RICHARD LARDNER

Posted on 04/28/2013 2:13:44 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Built to dominate the enemy in combat, the Army's hulking Abrams tank is proving equally hard to beat in a budget battle...

(Excerpt) Read more at hosted.ap.org ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: aemy; tanks
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The big-government/big-corporate criminal complex lives up to its name.
1 posted on 04/28/2013 2:13:44 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Does the Army say no more tanks or does Obama’s people say no more tanks - always a question these days


2 posted on 04/28/2013 2:15:45 PM PDT by elpadre (AfganistaMr Obama said the goal was to "disrupt, dismantle and defeat al-hereQaeda" and its allies.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
The army isn't saying anything. The servants of the regime, ie the political appointees and politicized officers are. Nothing the Obama guardians say can be taken at face value.

Or do you thing we can get away with fewer carriers, women in combat, and fewer jets without harm?

3 posted on 04/28/2013 2:20:09 PM PDT by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Congress knows what they’re doing here... there may or may not be another big foreign tank battle in our immediate future, but these tanks will also be quite handy for putting down Christian insurrection in rural areas of the US. ;-)


4 posted on 04/28/2013 2:21:09 PM PDT by Nervous Tick (Without GOD, men get what they deserve.)
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To: elpadre

“Does the Army say no more tanks or does Obama’s people say no more tanks - always a question these days”

Or do they say the Army doesn’t need them but the KGB...excuse me, the DHS does?


5 posted on 04/28/2013 2:21:16 PM PDT by Stormdog (A rifle transforms one from subject to Citizen)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Another corruption exposed while Nero fiddles and the people Facebook and Tweet.


6 posted on 04/28/2013 2:23:49 PM PDT by Spok
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To: rmlew

Let’s face it: the days of fleets of aircraft carriers and mass formations of tanks are over. The days of corporate mercenary strike teams and cutting-edge surveillance mechanisms are here. The need for great nation-states is dying and the rule of amoral corporations is rapidly rising.

/Why, yes, I have been a cyberpunk fan for thirty years.
//Why, yes, Gibson was a prophet.
///Take a look around.


7 posted on 04/28/2013 2:25:21 PM PDT by warchild9
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lima_Army_Tank_Plant

Problem is we are down to a single plant that can produce M1 tanks. Stop production and the ability to make tanks rapidly deteriorates.


8 posted on 04/28/2013 2:29:14 PM PDT by Snickering Hound
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To: Spok

9 posted on 04/28/2013 2:30:17 PM PDT by SandRat (Duty - Honor - Country! What else needs said?)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

I can think of three machines which have totally dominated the battlefield for 30 years. Maybe longer than that.

The M1 Abrams, the F-15 and the Warthog. They are all getting pretty old. I wonder if their successors will be as good.


10 posted on 04/28/2013 2:38:18 PM PDT by yarddog (Truth, Justice, and what was once the American Way.)
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To: warchild9

Wrong.

America is falling because we have sent our industry to China.

China now is the world’s largest exporter.

BRING BACK US INDUSTRY.


11 posted on 04/28/2013 2:40:19 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network
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To: warchild9

Your first sentence may be prophetic. Or maybe not. The same things were said in 1947.


12 posted on 04/28/2013 2:46:14 PM PDT by SoCal Pubbie
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

I don’t deny what you are saying. However, exercise your strategic vision; examine the situation with a broader perspective.

The surrender of our industry was intended to enrich the 1%. Weakening the U.S. was an irrelevant consequence of that ultimate aim. The U.S. as an entity has no meaning when profits are measured in the tens of trillions.

The Biggest Money rules, beginning at the local level, and rising to the very top. It’s always been this way.

“Our” industry will soon be relocated to SubSaharan Africa since the slaves in China are getting a little uppity and demanding...rights. Watch and see.


13 posted on 04/28/2013 3:03:19 PM PDT by warchild9
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To: Snickering Hound

No one needs M1 tanks to maintain order among competing international corporations and the sports-addled sheep they feed off of.


14 posted on 04/28/2013 3:04:55 PM PDT by warchild9
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To: warchild9

No sorry. Not happening.

What happened to American industry is it was sold. SOLD. To China.

China has a controlling interest, and now owns them. We have a minority interest and only keep that now at China’s decision.

We need to realize giving up control of all our industry was a nearly fatal flaw in American industry.

Bring back industry to America.

Now.


15 posted on 04/28/2013 3:11:59 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network
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To: SoCal Pubbie

In 1947, we weren’t quite ruled by corporations via their puppets in the White House. Blackwater (or whatever they call themselves these days) is the model for the future.

Mercenaries fight in small, highly-trained strike groups via assasination, not in great armies struggling over geographical objectives. Those days are over.

William Gibson is the prophet here, not Orwell. Technology results in more chaos and less central control. It’s a good thing.

Besides, an M1 tank can be crippled with a cheap rocket the size of my young nephew’s forearm.


16 posted on 04/28/2013 3:14:19 PM PDT by warchild9
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To: warchild9
No one needs M1 tanks to maintain order among competing international corporations and the sports-addled sheep they feed off of.

No, but when an unsustainable system collapses - the side with the tanks has typically come out on top.

Today, the US is spending more per household, than the average household earns. Much of that is in Gov't handouts. Now, in my daily workings with the Military, you will find no group of individuals more sworn to the upholding of the US Constitution than anywhere on the planet. They are NOT sworn to uphold Congress - they are sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States, from enemies both foreign and domestic. They have been asked, and many have laid down their lives in defense of this sacred oath.

If/when the system collapses, and there is a coup; it will not be the bureaucrats in Washington who reign.

There is no love between Washington bureaucrats and the leaders in the military - one could argue that there is a level of tolerance and submission due entirely to a dedication to the US Constitution and the principles for which it stands. Our politicians have abandoned these principles for selfish motives of power and money; but the military remains devoted by a bond of integrity, love and honor that few men that have not served can even begin to grasp. I have not served - as a member of the armed services; but I serve these men in my profession and have not a seconds doubt in placing my life, my fortune and my future in their hands.

The modern battle field still has need of tanks; we are fighting an enemy that lives in caves, who uses commercially available tech to deliver his weaponry. Tanks are not obsolete for the battles we fight today, nor the upcoming battles we will likely face in our lifetimes.

17 posted on 04/28/2013 3:17:42 PM PDT by Hodar (A man can fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame somebody else.- Burroughs)
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To: Hodar

Those “enemies” in caves are largely a boogie man, designed to frighten old people and suburban women. They’re dangerous, yes, but not to 99.99999% of the U.S. populace. They mostly exist on television.

A Moslem in the Middle East doesn’t threaten me here in North Carolina because I vacuum under my bed regularly.

Our most serious enemies dwell in skyscrapers, bid for politician’s favors and hold control of the levers of international credit and food supplies.


18 posted on 04/28/2013 3:22:06 PM PDT by warchild9
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
The problem with a large army of tanks is that they are stuck here without the large navy to transport them to other continents.

So, how's the Navy doing these days?

-PJ

19 posted on 04/28/2013 3:22:13 PM PDT by Political Junkie Too (If you are the Posterity of We the People, then you are a Natural Born Citizen.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Cut government spending. Everywhere. Well, everywhere except where “I” want it.

It’s all crap. Are we still planning on sending them to the Fulda gap?


20 posted on 04/28/2013 3:27:04 PM PDT by Vermont Lt (Does anybody really know what time it is? Does anybody really care?)
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To: yarddog
I can think of three machines which have totally dominated the battlefield for 30 years. Maybe longer than that. The M1 Abrams, the F-15 and the Warthog. They are all getting pretty old. I wonder if their successors will be as good.

All three have been awesome alright. I have a feeling their successors will be pretty different though. Lord only knows what they have been working on for the last decade or so.
21 posted on 04/28/2013 3:47:02 PM PDT by DJlaysitup
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To: Snickering Hound
Problem is we are down to a single plant that can produce M1 tanks. Stop production and the ability to make tanks rapidly deteriorates.

You are correct, sir. No one truly knows what the future holds, or what form the next wars will take. If you over prepare you will be deemed wasteful; if you under prepare you will be counted dead. All we know for sure is that there will always be wars, and we must be prepared to win.

22 posted on 04/28/2013 3:49:29 PM PDT by Always A Marine
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
The Army say's no, but, all those extra Light and Heavy Armored vehicles
are being deployed here in our streets. So, What are the plans for those extra Tanks?

If anybody thinks I'm some crazy loon conspiracy nut, take a look around the news
and do your own due diligence.

23 posted on 04/28/2013 3:58:47 PM PDT by MaxMax
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

In all fairness, tanks have entered the realm of ‘permanent component’ for a modern military. Importantly, this doesn’t mean in their current form, it means in their principle.

To explain, the world changed with Napoleon Bonaparte, because he used his units much like chess pieces. Engineers, artillery, infantry, light cavalry, heavy cavalry, with their movements much as how their pieces move on the chess board.

The Russians, and later the Soviet Union noted that every type of unit that Napoleon used had a modern, technologically more advanced equivalent. In the case of heavy cavalry, they used both tanks and heavy armored helicopters in that role. Even chemical and nuclear weapons did not change this theory.

The US, however, is more fixated on the technology involved instead of its use. And in truth, there is so much technology today devoted to killing tanks that much of their tactical abilities are reduced. But that is only true technologically.

That is, the role of the tank on the battlefield, as heavy cavalry, still exists.

The US has tried to blend light and heavy cavalry together in the form of the Stryker armored vehicle. But this is a risky gambit.

Yet, the die is pretty much cast. So now it is up to the weapons designers to develop a better mousetrap. And I would not be surprised if it was a tank, reborn, to once again fill that particular role on the battlefield.


24 posted on 04/28/2013 4:00:55 PM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy (Best WoT news at rantburg.com)
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To: warchild9

Cool, so large scale warfare and invasions and conquests are over, China is just wasting it’s money as it builds for a future that can’t happen according to you.


25 posted on 04/28/2013 4:03:46 PM PDT by ansel12 (Civilization, Crusade against the Mohammedan Death Cult)
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To: Always A Marine

We started WWII with some inferior equipment but not all of it was that bad.

Our planes were a little bit behind but not as bad as many think. I would guess our ships were about as good as any and our service rifle was the best of any tho it was a year or so until they became plentiful. No big deal as the 03 Springfield was still as good as the Axis guns.

Probably our tanks were rated the worst but I remember seeing a Arika Corps veteran saying when the British got large numbers of American Grant and Lee tanks, they were better than what the Germans had.

I think the one thing the Germans had over everyone was the 88mm artillery.


26 posted on 04/28/2013 4:12:52 PM PDT by yarddog (Truth, Justice, and what was once the American Way.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Enough emphasis on pork. Tanks aren’t invincible, and they do cost a lot in several ways (e.g., transportation). The Army knows what it’s talking about in this case and doesn’t have any extraneous motives.


27 posted on 04/28/2013 4:14:55 PM PDT by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of rotten politics smelled around the planet.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
Cuts are important, but not if they are in my district. Like Pogo said, “ we have met the enemy and he is us.” The problem is just who do you believe. The perfumed princes in the upper echelons of the military or the congressputzes.
28 posted on 04/28/2013 4:18:47 PM PDT by vette6387
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
Cuts are important, but not if they are in my district. Like Pogo said, “ we have met the enemy and he is us.” The problem is just who do you wan to believe. The perfumed princes in the upper echelons of the military or the congressputzes.
29 posted on 04/28/2013 4:19:26 PM PDT by vette6387
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To: yarddog

Don’t forget the M-2 ,0.5 Browning Heavy Caliber Machine Gun. The 50 caliber was mounted on tanks, half-tracks, jeeps and six to eight in P-47s and P-51s, Grumman Wildcats and F-6 Hellcats and just about anything else that flew, ran on the ground or sailed the seas. Ma Deuce demanded respect and she gets it!


30 posted on 04/28/2013 4:31:24 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: ansel12

There is ZERO chance of China confronting us directly over any perceived East Asian hegemony. The Chinese oligarchs don’t need to.

They own us, and are using the power of the money we give them with every “made in China” purchase to buy political influence in Taiwan, South Korea, Japan...and here.

Keep in mind: we’re a nation in decay, just a source of raw materials for them. Did you know that our top two exports to China are raw corn and scrap paper?

Scrap paper. Crushed cardboard boxes. That’s it.

And what are we dependent on them for? Almost everything but oil. And that includes most of the microelectronics used in our military hardware.

My wife recently took a series of business trips to the East, which included a week spent each in Singapore, Osaka, Shanghai, and Hong Kong. She returned home embarrassed for us. The cities she visited were bustling and blindingly modern—polluted, yes, but she said one could feel the general attitude of people on their way up.

One can smell the rot in the air here.

Asia is on the move. Meanwhile, most Americans leech off their countrymen and live for the next sporting event on television.

It’s a complex world, ruled by money, not tanks. Not any more. Ten thousand M1’s are worth nothing to a stagnant, ignorant bankrupt nation.


31 posted on 04/28/2013 4:36:47 PM PDT by warchild9 (I accept my share of the blame.)
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To: jmacusa

Yes the .50 caliber is still state of the art.

The German MG-42 was also a world beater. My Father used to tell stories of WWII to my brothers and me after he and Mother had gone to bed. We would sit by the bed and listen. He could imitate the sound of a MG-42. It was always fired in short bursts.


32 posted on 04/28/2013 4:38:20 PM PDT by yarddog (Truth, Justice, and what was once the American Way.)
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33 posted on 04/28/2013 4:38:57 PM PDT by musicman (Until I see the REAL Long Form Vault BC, he's just "PRES__ENT" Obama = Without "ID")
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To: jmacusa
 photo john50calBMG.jpg It is approaching 100 years old.
34 posted on 04/28/2013 4:55:56 PM PDT by yarddog (Truth, Justice, and what was once the American Way.)
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To: warchild9

Zero chance of war with China, or a need to stand up to China militarism anywhere, and major warfare is ended for humanity, sounds great.

I don’t want any of what you smoke though.


35 posted on 04/28/2013 4:57:58 PM PDT by ansel12 (Civilization, Crusade against the Mohammedan Death Cult)
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To: yarddog

The last uncle of my childhood passed away back in October. My Uncle Fred served with the 84th. Infantry Division in Belgium during The Battle of The Bulge. He told me about the MG-42. He said it fired so fast that ‘’If you heard it, it usually was the last thing you ever heard.’’ Unc’ was wounded by 88mm shrapnel in early January ‘45 and that got him the hell out of there but there are no doubt plenty of Germans and Japanese who almost fell afoul of ‘’Ma Deuce’’ and certainly must feel re-born that she didn’t give too hard a ‘’look see’’.


36 posted on 04/28/2013 5:04:36 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: ansel12

Are you still in high school?

Money rules the world. You’ll learn this as you mature.


37 posted on 04/28/2013 6:12:22 PM PDT by warchild9
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To: warchild9

No child, but you do seem to have a bizarre theory that history is over and the possibility of major wars has ended because someone recently invented money and economics.


38 posted on 04/28/2013 6:15:52 PM PDT by ansel12 (Civilization, Crusade against the Mohammedan Death Cult)
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To: yarddog
Probably our tanks were rated the worst but I remember seeing a Arika Corps veteran saying when the British got large numbers of American Grant and Lee tanks, they were better than what the Germans had.

Actually, our M4 Sherman was the match for the Mark IV German tank and better than their Mark III, which was their most plentiful tank. these were the tanks we faced in Africa when we started fighting over there. The M3 was not a good tank, the main gun was fixed and could only be aimed by turning the tank. In other words the Grant and the Lee were both inferior to the German tanks of the day. The Sherman was not.

However, when we got to Europe we were now facing the Mark V and Mark VI, the Panther and Tiger.They were both superior to the Sherman. They Panther had the same size gun as the Sherman(75MM) but it was a high velocity gun, better than the low velocity gun the Sherman had. Plus the armor on the Panther was better. The Tiger was so far above the Sherman that it speaks for itself.

Our big advantage lay in the fact we could produce hundreds of Shermans to every Panther and Tiger produced.

Typically, it took 4 Shermans to knock out one Tiger or Panther. The Panther was arguably the best medium tank of WWII, better than the Russian T34, which inspired it's design. The Tiger and the King Tiger(an upgrade of the Tiger)were both too heavy for the Power pack and were prone to break down frequently.

39 posted on 04/28/2013 6:25:33 PM PDT by calex59
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To: ansel12

Try reading more extensively and you’ll see that technology has made mass warfare obsolete.

I have studied warfare for...oh, going on forty years, now...since my career Marine father brought the very young me to visit his first battlefield on Okinawa. Oh, I even have a PhD in modern European history, with a specialty in WWII logistics. And make my living teaching history.

And you? Oh, yeah. You post anonymously to an internet forum.

Stick to sports on television. That’s your speed.


40 posted on 04/28/2013 6:34:55 PM PDT by warchild9
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To: warchild9

Sorry, but you sound incredibly petty and childlike, regardless of how you huff yourself up on the internet.

You should do more to explain to the world that large scale warfare is over and that man has moved beyond that, especially convince countries like China that war is over.

We would be in debt to you if you can bring world peace to man, and make future conflicts nothing but small operations with a few mercenaries and some push buttons.


41 posted on 04/28/2013 6:44:57 PM PDT by ansel12 (Civilization, Crusade against the Mohammedan Death Cult)
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To: warchild9
You’ll learn this as you mature.

People who truly mature gain humility as they realize that events often do not turn out as they thought. Money has tremendous power, that is undeniably true. But people don't always do as they're told, and paymasters are often mislead by their own vanity. There is nothing new under the sun, and human nature has not changed.

42 posted on 04/28/2013 6:46:22 PM PDT by Always A Marine
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To: Always A Marine

Thank you. “People never change” is a lesson I try to teach my students concerning history, and why it repeats.


43 posted on 04/28/2013 6:48:11 PM PDT by warchild9
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

GPS/laser guided bombs/rockets/missiles and anti-tank aircraft are much more efficient in doing the missions formerly done by tanks, which was primarily taking out other tanks.

These newer weapons are to tanks what aircraft carriers were to battleships.


44 posted on 04/28/2013 6:49:26 PM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: ansel12

War will forever be with us. It’s a sad part of being the killer ape known as “human.”

You know what the answer to state violence is? Capitalism. Wherever pure capitalism (not crony capitalism) is practiced, people spend their energy making money. Everybody wins, then.

/I sound petty because I’m trying to rattle your bars. When I intellectually slum with people like you, it entertains me.


45 posted on 04/28/2013 6:52:09 PM PDT by warchild9
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To: warchild9
Try reading more extensively and you’ll see... I have studied warfare for... I even have a PhD... I make my living... And you?... Stick to sports on television. That’s your speed.

Those are fine accomplishments, shared by many whose opinions vary. Thankfully, your hubris is less common. Most historians share a keener sense of their own limitations, knowing that their academic peers in past generations witnessed events take unforeseen turns.

46 posted on 04/28/2013 6:58:29 PM PDT by Always A Marine
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To: warchild9

No you sound petty because you got angry at posts 25 and 35, evidently your opinion that large wars are over for good, that historical warfare has ended because someone just recently invented money and commerce, is not to be challenged. Yeah, you are petty alright and weird to boot.


47 posted on 04/28/2013 7:06:00 PM PDT by ansel12 (Civilization, Crusade against the Mohammedan Death Cult)
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To: warchild9

Africa and India don’t have the infrastructure and won’t anytime soon. China is the only country positioned to dominate manufacturing, despite some slippage in extremely low end products.

The bigger issue is that when the yuan becomes fully convertible, Shanghai and Hong Kong will challenge Wall Street.Finance is one area the U.S. still controls.

As an aside, Macao now does like 3 times the volume of Vegas. China is now the world’s largest auto market.

Yet the U.S. still thinks China just makes Happy Meals and is dependent on exports.


48 posted on 04/28/2013 7:21:06 PM PDT by sunrise_sunset
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To: warchild9
Let’s face it: the days of fleets of aircraft carriers and mass formations of tanks are over.

Until reality strikes again.
Carriers are independent airfields and are part of a strike group. They are utterly indefensible for power protection and air dominance. There is a reason why more countries are building aircraft carriers today than before. Within a decade, China and India will have fleet carriers and Britain and Brazil will return to having these.

and mass formations of tanks are over
Fools always fight the last war.

The need for great nation-states is dying and the rule of amoral corporations is rapidly rising.
Small wars are the norm until the a large war starts. Read history, not fantasy.

49 posted on 04/28/2013 8:00:43 PM PDT by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

This is why government spending will never decrease. Defense contractors (and others feeding at the taxpayer trough) have cleverly put facilities in most states, often in small towns, to make their projects impervious to cuts. As soon as the military says it doesn’t want something, the politicians from those areas insist that whatever it is, is vital.

Lockheed Martin, as one example, sells the government the most expensive, useless crap, and the politicians make sure the party never ends.


50 posted on 04/28/2013 8:59:52 PM PDT by Pining_4_TX (All those who were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48)
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