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To: MoochPooch

Same here. However, for all its faults, the old South Africa did a better job of providing opportunity and safety to blacks than the new South Africa.

Ditto, Rhodesia/now Dysfunctional Zimbabwe.


14 posted on 05/02/2013 8:07:09 PM PDT by 3Fingas (Sons and Daughters of Freedom, Committee of Correspondence)
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To: 3Fingas
for all its faults, the old South Africa did a better job of providing opportunity and safety to blacks than the new South Africa

Which reminds me of that classical philosophical question: Is it better to serve in heaven or rule in hell?

15 posted on 05/02/2013 8:27:35 PM PDT by Leaning Right
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To: 3Fingas; Leaning Right; MoochPooch
Same here. However, for all its faults, the old South Africa did a better job of providing opportunity and safety to blacks than the new South Africa.

As someone who travels to South Africa at least once every three to four months I can say that it is true the country has definite problems. Now, the CBDs of Johannesburg and certain areas of Cape Town are much more developed compared to all of Africa, as well as many of the European and American cities I have been to. However, there are some real problems with that country that appear, to me, to be hard-baked. Crime is a real issue, as is the real problem that more and more black South Africans who never experienced apartheid are coming to adulthood. In essence, anyone born after 1980 (Black, Colored and Indian) either never experienced apartheid, or was simply too young to truly experience any negative ramifications by the time the system changed in 1994 (someone born in 1980 would have been around 14). That is the real problem, since the older folk who knew how apartheid was will always see the current system as MUCH better compared to that, but the newer generations have nothing to compare it to. That is where the problem will come from once Mandela passes on.

Anyways, as to your statement that the old South Africa did a better job of providing opportunity and safety to blacks than the new South Africa. Well, that is simply not true. So not the case that it is tacitly humorous.

Let's see. They could not vote. Only the 16% (then) of whites could vote, with 84% either partly or fully disenfranchised (at the 1994 elections the Blacks, Coloreds and Indians could finally fully participate). The blacks were restricted to living in Bantustans. Electrification was largely non-existent for the black population (less than a third had access to electricity), formal housing, piped water, etc. Inability to operate a business in white areas, or even being present in certain areas with what was called a 'dumb pass.' Getting a passport was next to impossible. A horrible education system (which is why even today you will see Kenyans holding certain positions there because, until recently, most black South Africans simply hadn't gotten that good of an education).

Is it possible to find a Black (or Colored - that is mixed race - or even Indian) South African who prefers the Apartheid system to the current state of events? Well, I am sure it is possible. Even probable. This planet has over 7 billion people now, and it is possible to find someone who will ascribe to anything. A couple years back I read about a German (I believe) man who responded to an ad placed by some kook who wanted to eat human flesh! Thus, anything is possible! However, can you find many Blacks in South Africa willing to go back to that? Absolutely not!

The current South Africa is wracked with crime, with disease, with lack of opportunity. So was old SA ...it is not as if AIDS was magically kept in check pre-1994. However, you will also find that most people will not necessarily opt to being treated like a dog in their country.

As for (1) serving in heaven or ruling in hell. Well, the question is better phrased as (2) serving in hell or ruling in (also) hell (if one takes a more tempered view), or (3) serving in heaven or ruling in (also) heaven (if someone takes a FAR more exuberant view). Number 1 never existed, because for a Black, the vast majority of Coloreds, and a number of Indian South Africans during Apartheid, it was not serving in heaven but rather serving in hell. Given a choice between serving in hell or ruling in hell I believe many would rather be the veritable devil rather than be the poor sop at the bottom of the heap. If you will suffer either way it better come with some perks.

Anyways, long story short. One will be hard pressed to find many logical Black/Colored/Asian people who would prefer Apartheid to the current system, even though the current system has many (many) faults.

Which is why I personally believe the breaking point after Mandela passes on will come from the many young Black South Africans who were born after 1980. They have nothing to compare the current system against, and they will rise up. The South African government has apparently managed to shut up the youthful firebrand Julius Malema (by basically destroying him politically and financially ...I believe he is getting some crazy back taxes that have basically squeezed him shut). Good move by the SA government since that chap was quite dangerous, but I believe he is just the first of many. Some compare SA to Zimbabwe ...well, in Zimbabwe you had a strong man ruler for a long time, meaning all the craziness was coming from him. No such thing in SA, and also SA is an interesting country where you see lots of very obvious wealth surrounded by a sea of poverty. It is a BRICS economy with quite a bit of opulence in key areas of, say, Jo'burg and Cape Town, but then all around is a mass of lack. All that is needed is the right populist spark and it will make Venezuela look like a cake walk.

Thus, there are real issues. Issues that may not have an easy solution. However, you will not find many who are Black, many who are colored, and a number who are Indian, willing to exchange that for a return to old South Africa. Yet, it can be said that looking at it from the other side of the coin, it can also be said that during Apartheid the system did run much better (for the minority whites though) than it does now.

Bottomline:

- If I was white I would probably prefer the way things were run then.

- If I was rich Asian with the appropriate connections then I would prefer the way things were run then.

- If I was a rich Asian with the appropriate connections NOW, I would prefer the way things are run now (e.g the South African Gupta family that has deep connections in ANC and brought a private plane filled with guests for a wedding from India, landing in a military airport to much controversy).

- If I was Colored I would prefer the current system, unless I was a Colored with certain privileges living in certain areas near Cape Town.

- If I was a Black South African I would overwhelmingly prefer the current system.

Like anything else it is dependent on a lot of gray areas. One thing that is FACT though is that, to go back to the original statement, the old South Africa did not do a better job of 'providing opportunity and safety to blacks than the new South Africa.' There was no opportunity, and crime prevailed in the Bantustans (together with child mortality that could be compared to that in Central Africa).

37 posted on 05/08/2013 12:29:06 AM PDT by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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