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Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job
PoliceOne.com ^ | 4/17/13 | Charles Remsberg

Posted on 05/13/2013 7:09:16 AM PDT by LibWhacker

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty.

Today, he carries 145, “every day, without fail.”

He detailed the gunfight that caused the difference in a gripping presentation at the annual conference of the Assn. of SWAT Personnel-Wisconsin.

At the core of his desperate firefight was a murderous attacker who simply would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition — six of those hits in supposedly fatal locations.

The most threatening encounter in Gramins’ nearly two-decade career with the Skokie (Ill.) PD north of Chicago came on a lazy August afternoon prior to his promotion to sergeant, on his first day back from a family vacation. He was about to take a quick break from his patrol circuit to buy a Star Wars game at a shopping center for his son’s eighth birthday.

An alert flashed out that a male black driving a two-door white car had robbed a bank at gunpoint in another suburb 11 miles north and had fled in an unknown direction. Gramins was only six blocks from a major expressway that was the most logical escape route into the city.

Unknown at the time, the suspect, a 37-year-old alleged Gangster Disciple, had vowed that he would kill a police officer if he got stopped.

“I’ve got a horseshoe up my ass when it comes to catching suspects,” Gramins laughs. He radioed that he was joining other officers on the busy expressway lanes to scout traffic.

He was scarcely up to highway speed when he spotted a lone male black driver in a white Pontiac Bonneville and pulled alongside him. “He gave me ‘the Look,’ that oh-crap-there’s-the-police look, and I knew he was the guy,” Gramins said.

Gramins dropped behind him. Then in a sudden, last-minute move the suspect accelerated sharply and swerved across three lanes of traffic to roar up an exit ramp. “I’ve got one running!” Gramins radioed.

The next thing he knew, bullets were flying. “That was four years ago,” Gramins said. “Yet it could be ten seconds ago.”

With Gramins following close behind, siren blaring and lights flashing, the Bonneville zigzagged through traffic and around corners into a quite pocket of single-family homes a few blocks from the exit. Then a few yards from where a 10-year-old boy was skateboarding on a driveway, the suspect abruptly squealed to a stop.

“He bailed out and ran headlong at me with a 9 mm Smith in his hand while I was still in my car,” Gramins said.

The gunman sank four rounds into the Crown Vic’s hood while Gramins was drawing his .45-cal. Glock 21.

“I didn’t have time to think of backing up or even ramming him,” Gramins said. “I see the gun and I engage.”

Gramins fired back through his windshield, sending a total of 13 rounds tearing through just three holes.

A master firearms instructor and a sniper on his department’s Tactical Intervention Unit, “I was confident at least some of them were hitting him, but he wasn’t even close to slowing down,” Gramins said.

The gunman shot his pistol dry trying to hit Gramins with rounds through his driver-side window, but except for spraying the officer’s face with glass, he narrowly missed and headed back to his car.

Gramins, also empty, escaped his squad — “a coffin,” he calls it — and reloaded on his run to cover behind the passenger-side rear of the Bonneville.

Now the robber, a lanky six-footer, was back in the fight with a .380 Bersa pistol he’d grabbed off his front seat. Rounds flew between the two as the gunman dashed toward the squad car.

Again, Gamins shot dry and reloaded.

“I thought I was hitting him, but with shots going through his clothing it was hard to tell for sure. This much was certain: he kept moving and kept shooting, trying his damnedest to kill me.”

In this free-for-all, the assailant had, in fact, been struck 14 times. Any one of six of these wounds — in the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney — could have produced fatal consequences…“in time,” Gramins emphasizes.

But time for Gramins, like the stack of bullets in his third magazine, was fast running out.

In his trunk was an AR-15; in an overhead rack inside the squad, a Remington 870.

But reaching either was impractical. Gramins did manage to get himself to a grassy spot near a tree on the curb side of his vehicle where he could prone out for a solid shooting platform.

The suspect was in the street on the other side of the car. “I could see him by looking under the chassis,” Gramins recalls. “I tried a couple of ricochet rounds that didn’t connect. Then I told myself, ‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.’ ”

When the suspect bent down to peer under the car, Gramins carefully established a sight picture, and squeezed off three controlled bursts in rapid succession.

Each round slammed into the suspect’s head — one through each side of his mouth and one through the top of his skull into his brain. At long last the would-be cop killer crumpled to the pavement.

The whole shootout had lasted 56 seconds, Gramins said. The assailant had fired 21 rounds from his two handguns. Inexplicably — but fortunately — he had not attempted to employ an SKS semi-automatic rifle that was lying on his front seat ready to go.

Gramins had discharged 33 rounds. Four remained in his magazine.

Two houses and a parked Mercedes in the vicinity had been struck by bullets, but with no casualties. The young skateboarder had run inside yelling at his dad to call 911 as soon as the battle started and also escaped injury. Despite the fusillade of lead sent his way, Gramins’ only damage besides glass cuts was a wound to his left shin. His dominant emotion throughout his brush with death, he recalls, was “feeling very alone, with no one to help me but myself.”

Remarkably, the gunman was still showing vital signs when EMS arrived. Sheer determination, it seemed, kept him going, for no evidence of drugs or alcohol was found in his system.

He was transported to a trauma center where Gramins also was taken. They shared an ER bay with only a curtain between them as medical personnel fought unsuccessfully to save the robber’s life.

At one point Gramins heard a doctor exclaim, “We may as well stop. Every bag of blood we give him ends up on the floor. This guy’s like Swiss cheese. Why’d that cop have to shoot him so many times!”

Gramins thought, “He just tried to kill me! Where’s that part of it?”

When Gramins was released from the hospital, “I walked out of there a different person,” he said.

“Being in a shooting changes you. Killing someone changes you even more.” As a devout Catholic, some of his changes involved a deepening spirituality and philosophical reflections, he said without elaborating.

At least one alteration was emphatically practical.

Before the shooting, Gramins routinely carried 47 rounds of handgun ammo on his person, including two extra magazines for his Glock 21 and 10 rounds loaded in a backup gun attached to his vest, a 9 mm Glock 26.

Now unfailingly he goes to work carrying 145 handgun rounds, all 9 mm. These include three extra 17-round magazines for his primary sidearm (currently a Glock 17), plus two 33-round mags tucked in his vest, as well as the backup gun. Besides all that, he’s got 90 rounds for the AR-15 that now rides in a rack up front.

Paranoia?

Gramins shook his head and said “Preparation.”

Expert Analysis

Lessons learned from facing an “invincible” assailant

By Charles Remsberg

Sgt. Timothy Gramins who fired 17 .45-cal. rounds into a hell-bent suspect before putting him down offers these lessons learned from his extraordinary fight for his life:


1.) Beef up your ammo reserves. “A lot more rounds are being exchanged in today’s gunfights than in the past. With offenders carrying heavier weapons, going on patrol with just a handgun and two extra magazines no longer cuts it. Carry more ammo. Always have a backup gun. Carry a loaded rifle where you can reach it. I can’t express how quickly your firearm will go empty when you’re shooting for real. There’s no worse feeling than pulling the trigger and hearing it go ‘click’.”


2.) Practice head shots. “When you fire multiple ‘lethal’ rounds into an attacker and he keeps going, you don’t have the luxury of waiting 20 or 40 more seconds for him to die while he can still shoot at you. Don’t waste time arguing the relative merits of various calibers. No handgun rounds have reliable stopping power with body shots. Pick the round you can shoot best and practice shooting at the suspect’s head.”



TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 145rounds; ammo; banglist; carries; cop; guncontrol; secondamendment
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1 posted on 05/13/2013 7:09:16 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: LibWhacker

But YOU should be limited to 10.

Nanny knows best.


2 posted on 05/13/2013 7:14:58 AM PDT by Uncle Miltie (Mandatory BB Guns for 10 Year Old Boys would solve most of America's problems.)
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To: LibWhacker
Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Lots of dogs and innocent bystanders to shoot and so little time.

3 posted on 05/13/2013 7:19:22 AM PDT by from occupied ga (Your government is your most dangerous enemy)
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To: LibWhacker

Governor “Cumo”says nobody needs 10-rounds to kill a deer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


4 posted on 05/13/2013 7:22:55 AM PDT by bandleader
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To: Uncle Miltie

... or 7 in New York. Because this sort of thing NEVER HAPPENS in NY.


5 posted on 05/13/2013 7:24:02 AM PDT by coloradan (The US has become a banana republic, except without the bananas - or the republic.)
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To: LibWhacker

Good analysis, it should apply to anyone who carries, NOT just the Police Officer.


6 posted on 05/13/2013 7:28:15 AM PDT by The Working Man
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To: Uncle Miltie

But YOU should be limited to 10.
_____________________________________________
How many rounds do I need? Enough to get the job done. It could be 145 rounds or more, since an unknown situation will control my needs.


7 posted on 05/13/2013 7:30:32 AM PDT by iontheball
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To: LibWhacker

So he went to 9mm after not getting the job done in short order with a 45ACP? Got it.


8 posted on 05/13/2013 7:30:39 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: mad_as_he$$

I was impressed with the “13 rounds through three holes”.


9 posted on 05/13/2013 7:32:14 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: LibWhacker

No one needs more than seven rounds.


10 posted on 05/13/2013 7:33:07 AM PDT by School of Rational Thought
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To: LibWhacker

Thanks for the post. Would like to read about this later in an “Ayoob File”.


11 posted on 05/13/2013 7:36:11 AM PDT by gettinolder (Pursue the enemy relentlessly to the limit of every man's endurance.)
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To: MrB
Windshield a few inches away? Was the perp really that stationary?
12 posted on 05/13/2013 7:37:45 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: mad_as_he$$

Of course, they were probably really big holes.


13 posted on 05/13/2013 7:38:47 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: LibWhacker
Why?

Here's why:

Approximately 150 rounds fired:

Total hits on the "perp": two, minor wounds, most likely ricochets...

14 posted on 05/13/2013 7:39:45 AM PDT by null and void (The motto of all liberals is "Using your guilt and your gelt we can get away with anything!")
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To: LibWhacker

15 posted on 05/13/2013 7:40:30 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools - Solon, Lawmaker of Athens)
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To: mad_as_he$$
Did you miss this?:

Don’t waste time arguing the relative merits of various calibers. No handgun rounds have reliable stopping power with body shots. Pick the round you can shoot best and practice shooting at the suspect’s head.”

16 posted on 05/13/2013 7:42:16 AM PDT by GOP_Party_Animal
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To: LibWhacker

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job?

Because he couldn’t hit his a$$ with both hands.
He’s too lazy to go out and practice. Even a 22Lr has
to much kick for these sorry excuses for LEO’s we have
today.

“I’ve got a horseshoe up my ass when it comes to catching suspects,”

When lead flies, macho just don’t cut it. A little more time
on the range and a lot less time in front of the mirror
perfecting the macho “you talkin to me” pose would be better
than carrying around 145 rounds.

A 1000 rounds is worthless if you can’t shoot.


17 posted on 05/13/2013 7:43:12 AM PDT by Slambat
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To: LibWhacker

So we should be allowed to carry five 30-round magazines with our AR-15, when we’re out for a drive or a walk? [Actually, I think we should - the Second Amendment says so.]

Back before the great boating accident of 2010, my philosophy on self-defense in the home was to choose an appropriate caliber and load for home defense, balancing over-penetration against stopping power, and I kept lots of firepower securely in several locations. Nowadays, I just count on 9-1-1. The police response time of 10-60 minutes is not really much slower than 1200 fps, is it?


18 posted on 05/13/2013 7:46:47 AM PDT by Pollster1 ("Shall not be infringed" is unambiguous.)
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To: LibWhacker

“The amount of ammo you need is determined after the gunfight.”


19 posted on 05/13/2013 7:47:16 AM PDT by carriage_hill (AR-10s & AR-15s are the Muskets of the 21st Century. Free men need not ask permission.)
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To: LibWhacker

>Gramins fired back through his windshield, sending a total of 13 rounds tearing through just three holes

I can picture that. After firing two .44 mag rounds through a tempered glass storm door, there was a perfectly round, large hole that froze in place. After checking myself for bullet wounds, the only sensations I had were the ringing in my ears and the taste of burned H110. It was as if time stopped, until the surviving glass suddenly evaporated and the door became a clear window to blue lights and mayhem.


20 posted on 05/13/2013 7:47:29 AM PDT by soycd
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To: All

Answer: Because he knows how long it will take the cops to respond even if it is one of their own and who knows how many savages will be attacking at once.


21 posted on 05/13/2013 7:47:54 AM PDT by RHS Jr (Pity the banksters when Jesus comes)
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To: LibWhacker

Facsinating that he put away his .45 and exclusively carries 9mm. I’m guessing this decision is primarily based upon ammo volume and the ability to pop in 33 rd mags.


22 posted on 05/13/2013 7:49:48 AM PDT by Obadiah (High speed, low drag.)
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To: MrB

“I was impressed with the “13 rounds through three holes””

Unless police cruisers don’t have safety glass that shatters into tiny pieces, I don’t see how this could be possible to determine.


23 posted on 05/13/2013 7:49:55 AM PDT by treetopsandroofs (Had FDR been GOP, there would have been no World Wars, just "The Great War" and "Roosevelt's Wars".)
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To: LibWhacker

So.... people who live near Chicago (especially police) need to carry much more ammo than people who live elsewhere.

If the cops need 145 rounds, then ordinary citizens need at least one gun and 45 rounds.


24 posted on 05/13/2013 7:51:10 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (The monsters are due on Maple Street)
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To: Slambat
Did you read the whole article?

The officer in this shootout was A master firearms instructor and a sniper on his department’s Tactical Intervention Unit...

Additionally, he did hit the guy 14 times with three head shots. I think the point was with many multiple body shots of .45 the criminal was still standing and shooting!

25 posted on 05/13/2013 7:54:05 AM PDT by Obadiah (High speed, low drag.)
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To: Slambat

“Because he couldn’t hit his a$$ with both hands.”

Have you ever been in a small arms fight?


26 posted on 05/13/2013 7:56:37 AM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: treetopsandroofs

“Unless police cruisers don’t have safety glass that shatters into tiny pieces, I don’t see how this could be possible to determine.”

Windshield glass has a plastic layer in the middle that keeps it from shattering all over and it stays intact. Side window glass is tempered to break into tiny chunks.


27 posted on 05/13/2013 8:01:18 AM PDT by headstamp 2 (What would Scooby do?)
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To: Obadiah
I’m guessing this decision is primarily based upon ammo volume and the ability to pop in 33 rd mags.

Could be his decision to go from center of mass hits to head shots, and he believes he's more accurate with the nine.

No arguing the additional rounds a double-stack can carry, and his attitude now seems to be a 9mm hollow point to the head beats a .45 hollow point to the chest.

Maybe I should reconsider my CHL loadout of 17 .45 DRT rounds... but a cop is much more likely to get into a shootout than I am.

28 posted on 05/13/2013 8:05:50 AM PDT by grobdriver
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To: mad_as_he$$
Didn't you read the article?

Pick the round you can shoot best and practice shooting at the suspect’s head.”

He probably practiced with seeing how many rounds he could fire in five seconds and how many hit the target. If you have arthritis or a weak grip that's why a .22 can be an effective defensive round. Ten hits to the head in five seconds and your attacker is done for.

29 posted on 05/13/2013 8:16:15 AM PDT by B4Ranch (http://www.theycometoamerica.com/)
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To: mad_as_he$$
"So he went to 9mm after not getting the job done in short order with a 45ACP? "

I don't understand that either.

30 posted on 05/13/2013 8:16:32 AM PDT by Slump Tester (What if I'm pregnant Teddy? Errr-ahh -Calm down Mary Jo, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it)
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To: LibWhacker

2.) Practice head shots. “When you fire multiple ‘lethal’ rounds into an attacker and he keeps going, you don’t have the luxury of waiting 20 or 40 more seconds for him to die while he can still shoot at you. Don’t waste time arguing the relative merits of various calibers. No handgun rounds have reliable stopping power with body shots. Pick the round you can shoot best and practice shooting at the suspect’s head.”

__________________

Best advice in the article - “stopping power” in a handgun is a myth, unless you’re taking head shots.


31 posted on 05/13/2013 8:18:39 AM PDT by jagusafr (the American Trinity (Liberty, In G0D We Trust, E Pluribus Unum))
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To: mad_as_he$$
So he went to 9mm after not getting the job done in short order with a 45ACP? Got it.

You must not have read the last sentence.
"Don’t waste time arguing the relative merits of various calibers. No handgun rounds have reliable stopping power with body shots. Pick the round you can shoot best and practice shooting at the suspect’s head.”

At one point Gramins heard a doctor exclaim, “We may as well stop. Every bag of blood we give him ends up on the floor. This guy’s like Swiss cheese. Why’d that cop have to shoot him so many times!”

He should have gotten up and throat punched that stupid doctor.

32 posted on 05/13/2013 8:23:30 AM PDT by ParityErr (It's impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious.)
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To: grobdriver
Let's just say that I like the beefy .45 round. Your line of thinking was pretty much what caused me to wonder about this guy's decision. But I think (hope) in the end that any personal weapon is a last resort defensive weapon, whereas a LEO’s weapon could generally be considered offensive in nature and thus more likely to require a higher volume of ammunition.
33 posted on 05/13/2013 8:24:56 AM PDT by Obadiah (High speed, low drag.)
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To: Slambat

How many firefights you been in?


34 posted on 05/13/2013 8:26:51 AM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: LibWhacker

In my LEO days I carried 4 extra mags on the belt (4 speed loaders before we went semi auto), back up pistol between door and seat. My AR was in the back seat while on duty. I had 6 30 rounders for it. The shotgun was in the gun lock.


35 posted on 05/13/2013 8:29:39 AM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: Slambat

Did you read the article? He hit the suspect 17 times while taking fire.


36 posted on 05/13/2013 8:31:56 AM PDT by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: ParityErr

We also don’t know why he switched. Most LEOs don’t get to pick either their model or caliber. It is selected by the department.


37 posted on 05/13/2013 8:33:54 AM PDT by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: GOP_Party_Animal

No, however even the most detailed studies show the 45 ACP is the big boy on the block.


38 posted on 05/13/2013 8:52:27 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: B4Ranch

Yea I read the whole article. In this situation I believe you and your 22 would of been in real trouble. Shooting through a windshield with a 22 is problamatic at best. If you can hit a guy five times in the head at 15 yards when he is laying down, in a few seconds, you are one hell of a gunslinger.


39 posted on 05/13/2013 8:57:57 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: carriage_hill
“The amount of ammo you need is determined after the gunfight.”

"Time enough for countin' after the dealin's done."

40 posted on 05/13/2013 9:01:55 AM PDT by super7man
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To: ParityErr
Yes, I read it. I saw a guy take 9 hits with 9mm at 30 feet and still walk up to the cop and take the cop's gun away and start beating him with it. Another cop shot him in the head and finished it. All things being equal since I have actually shot someone(s) with both a 45ACP and a 44mag I will take the 45 ACP. Oh and the guy I shot with the 45 took three rounds of 5.56 in the chest and still kept running at me.
41 posted on 05/13/2013 9:02:09 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: Jewbacca

“Have you ever been in a small arms fight?”

Yes. 1981. Grocery store in Houston. NSA (North-Side Aztecs)
All I had was a bat and a can of beer. I got out ok but my
truck took a few rounds. Thank god that chucho was as bad
a shot as this cop.


42 posted on 05/13/2013 9:12:05 AM PDT by Slambat
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To: Slambat

I have, too. Mind you, I was a pilot throughout my active military career (in a different country), but wanted to be reserve long after my flying days were over.

I empties an M-16 (30 rounds), hitting a guy about 8 times in the chest, which is pretty typical -— about a 30% hit factor in a gun fight. He didn’t drop until I had jumped behind a barracade to put in a new mag. When I popped up, he was on the ground.

After that, I don’t begrudge a lot of ammo in a fight.

And, mind you, I had a rifle.


43 posted on 05/13/2013 9:18:29 AM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: Jewbacca

For clarification, the above was at a checkpoint at Gush Katif.


44 posted on 05/13/2013 9:19:19 AM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: LibWhacker

Each case is different. Its impossible to say any single caliber is the best. Shot placement, caliber, and ammunition are all important and dependent on circumstances.


45 posted on 05/13/2013 9:30:36 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do uwhen I have a fire.)
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To: Obadiah

“The officer in this shootout was A master firearms instructor and a sniper on his department’s Tactical Intervention Unit...”

And he still couldn’t down a perp even after hitting him
14 times. Your right, maybe 140 hits would have done the job.
14 times out of 33 rounds with a .45.? Close range? Sniper?
Did the purp have a head? Was the cop blowing his money on
donuts and cool shades to buy decent ammo? Nothing personal
Obadiah, but does this alone really justify carrying 145
rounds of ammo? Even with a 45% hit to miss ratio at close
range?


46 posted on 05/13/2013 9:35:27 AM PDT by Slambat
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To: Obadiah

Thanks for your comment. Lot’s of hate on our forum for the men in blue.


47 posted on 05/13/2013 9:36:17 AM PDT by gettinolder (Pursue the enemy relentlessly to the limit of every man's endurance.)
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To: Jewbacca

Thanks for your comment. Again thread is littered with armchair commando’s.


48 posted on 05/13/2013 9:37:14 AM PDT by gettinolder (Pursue the enemy relentlessly to the limit of every man's endurance.)
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To: Obadiah

I’ve read of once case where a cop shot a guy wearing a heavy leather jacket. The leather filled in the hollow point and the .45 JHP performed as a .45 FMJ.

In another case the cop was using a .45 and shooting through the car door. The .45 acp didn’t perform very well through the metal.

Yet another case where the cop was shooting at the driver who was still in the car. The 9mm broke the cars windshield but did not penetrate it.

Only point is that it depends on the situation. For me a .40 or .45 acp is what I would carry.


49 posted on 05/13/2013 9:42:22 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do uwhen I have a fire.)
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To: jagusafr

I know a cop who has shot 3 people with a .45 acp and all three dropped immediately. These were center of mass shots.


50 posted on 05/13/2013 9:45:05 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do uwhen I have a fire.)
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