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Dambusters flypast and ceremony on raid's 70th anniversary
BBC News ^ | 17th May 2013 | BBC News

Posted on 05/17/2013 10:35:46 AM PDT by the scotsman

'Two of the surviving Dambuster airmen have attended a ceremony after a flypast to mark the 70th anniversary of the World War II raid on German dams.

Hundreds of onlookers gathered as a Lancaster bomber flew over Derwent reservoir - one of the practice sites used ahead of the top-secret mission.

More than a third of the men never returned from the raids, when they had to fly just 60ft above ground.

RAF Scampton later hosted a sunset service.

The RAF Battle of Britain Memorial Flight and 617 Squadron flew over the dam in Derbyshire's Hope Valley on Thursday lunchtime.

The ceremony, service and second flypast took place at RAF Scampton in Lincolnshire where, 70 years ago, 19 Lancaster bombers took off for their daring mission.

Only three of the original 133-strong squadron are still alive. Two of them, 94-year-old John "Les" Munro and 91-year-old George "Johnny" Johnson attended the Lincoln service on Thursday evening.

Squadron leader Munro had travelled from New Zealand for the event.

He said he made the 12,000-mile trip "just to renew old acquaintances".

More than 1,300 people were killed in the Dambuster raids when bombs were dropped on German dams and flooded the Ruhr valley.

There were a number of events taking place around the country on Thursday to mark the raids of 16-17 May 1943.'

(Excerpt) Read more at bbc.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Germany; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: aerospace; dambusters; lancaster; raf; spitfire

1 posted on 05/17/2013 10:35:46 AM PDT by the scotsman
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To: the scotsman

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22544568


2 posted on 05/17/2013 10:35:58 AM PDT by the scotsman (i)
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To: the scotsman
One of Barnes Wallace's many technological tours de force that made allied victory possible.
3 posted on 05/17/2013 10:50:50 AM PDT by null and void (Republicans create the tools of opression, and the democrats gleefully use them!)
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To: the scotsman

Lots of great documentaries about the dambusters on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dambusters&filters=long&lclk=long


4 posted on 05/17/2013 10:56:52 AM PDT by Bobalu (It is not obama we are fighting, it is the media.)
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To: the scotsman

5 posted on 05/17/2013 10:58:30 AM PDT by AngelesCrestHighway
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To: the scotsman
Just dam.

Somebody had to say it. ;)

6 posted on 05/17/2013 10:59:45 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: the scotsman

7 posted on 05/17/2013 11:00:29 AM PDT by AngelesCrestHighway
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To: the scotsman

Back in the days when the military understood their role was to kill the enemy and break their things, and not be a “global force for good.”


8 posted on 05/17/2013 11:03:54 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: the scotsman

Everyone needs to watch this Un-Poltically correct movie. Some people may be in for a big shock.


9 posted on 05/17/2013 11:04:56 AM PDT by ImJustAnotherOkie (zerogottago)
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To: the scotsman

Chippy Ho! I was attached to VFA-195 Dambusters on USS Midway. We had a lot of fun in those crazy days
...


10 posted on 05/17/2013 11:25:00 AM PDT by gcraig (Freedom is not free)
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To: AngelesCrestHighway

The lights came from the designer after a trip to a theater.
When they merged they were at the precise height.


11 posted on 05/17/2013 12:30:59 PM PDT by Eye of Unk
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To: the scotsman

When Britain had balls.


12 posted on 05/17/2013 12:36:39 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: jmacusa

How many Germans died in the flood of water from the busted dams? If the Nazi’s had won—would this have been a war crime?


13 posted on 05/17/2013 12:58:12 PM PDT by Forward the Light Brigade (Into the Jaws of H*ll)
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To: ImJustAnotherOkie

Un-PC because the CO’s Black Lab’s name is “nigger”?


14 posted on 05/17/2013 12:59:53 PM PDT by hattend (Firearms and ammunition...the only growing industries under the Obama regime.)
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To: Forward the Light Brigade
How many Germans died in the flood of water from the busted dams? If the Nazi’s had won—would this have been a war crime?

Less Germans than died in Dresden.

Article says "more than 1300" died.

15 posted on 05/17/2013 1:02:30 PM PDT by hattend (Firearms and ammunition...the only growing industries under the Obama regime.)
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To: Forward the Light Brigade

I don’t think the raids hampered the German war effort much. They had a rather remarkable way of recovering fairly quickly from most of these kinds of raids.


16 posted on 05/17/2013 1:11:34 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: the scotsman
I spotted a magazine named "Aviation History" on the newsstand at the airport last week. Cover story of the current issue is "Dambusters" with great information on Wallace, his technology, the raids and squadron losses, the and consequences to Germany. Excerpt here. Well worth reading the entire article -- also has a short bibliography.
17 posted on 05/17/2013 1:12:08 PM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: hattend

What about Dresden? Do you consider that a ‘’war crime’’? I don’t.


18 posted on 05/17/2013 1:12:36 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: Forward the Light Brigade

To the Nazis, feeding a Jew a slice of bread was considered a “war crime.”


19 posted on 05/17/2013 1:15:39 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: jmacusa

In the context of your question, you asked if “more than 1300” dying in the Dambuster raids would have been considered a war crime by Germany if they had won the war.

I merely pointed out that 1300 is a blip compared to what happened in Dresden.


20 posted on 05/17/2013 1:16:04 PM PDT by hattend (Firearms and ammunition...the only growing industries under the Obama regime.)
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To: jmacusa

I believe it was Albert Speer who wrote after the war (would have been nice for the advice during the war, Al...) that the Nazis were a little confused about our bombing different industries. Has we truly and strongly focused on just one or two sectors, a complete knock out of a process would have had a far more devestating effect on them instead of the spreading the damage to multiple areas plan we followed.


21 posted on 05/17/2013 1:16:42 PM PDT by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: jmacusa

Just re-read what I wrote...you didn’t ask the original question.

Sorry


22 posted on 05/17/2013 1:18:09 PM PDT by hattend (Firearms and ammunition...the only growing industries under the Obama regime.)
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To: hattend

I’m just asking if you think Dresden was a war crime. I don’t think it was.


23 posted on 05/17/2013 1:24:07 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: jmacusa
What about Dresden? Do you consider that a ‘’war crime’’? I don’t.

Just have to put this out there, too...

I consider the bombing of Dresden to be a historical event. As was Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The people living at the time made the decision, I won't second guess them.

However, If I was king of the world after 9/11... Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran would be smoldering glass parking lots from which American oil wells were operating 24/7. Muzzies worldwide would be underground, living in fear.

But that's just me.

24 posted on 05/17/2013 1:26:36 PM PDT by hattend (Firearms and ammunition...the only growing industries under the Obama regime.)
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To: jmacusa

No, I don’t


25 posted on 05/17/2013 1:27:28 PM PDT by hattend (Firearms and ammunition...the only growing industries under the Obama regime.)
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To: hattend

You should probably capitalize it since it’s a proper name.


26 posted on 05/17/2013 1:29:10 PM PDT by ImJustAnotherOkie (zerogottago)
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To: ImJustAnotherOkie

Too late, no editing ability

Moderator will probably clean up anyway.


27 posted on 05/17/2013 1:31:40 PM PDT by hattend (Firearms and ammunition...the only growing industries under the Obama regime.)
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To: the scotsman

I will post a link on this thread to our WWII + 70 thread tomorrow. The headline reads, “R.A.F. Blasts 2 Big Dams in Reich; Ruhr Power Cut, Traffic Halted as Floods Cause Death and Ruin.” The N.Y. Times initial report cited 4,000+ dead and 120,000 homeless after the raid. There is a sidebar story that credits a German-Jewish “medical specialist” working in exile in London with the idea for the dam-busting raid.


28 posted on 05/17/2013 1:43:02 PM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: jmacusa
What about Dresden? Do you consider that a ‘’war crime’’? I don’t.

I do.

29 posted on 05/17/2013 1:51:40 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: PAR35

I dont.

It was a legitimate military and strategic target, Germany was far from being beaten. The notion its a war crime because Germany was beaten or it was simply for gratification (it was a raid requested by Stalin to help the USSR’s advance) is nonsense. Or that there was nothing worth bombing in it (a huge lie).

Frankly, it wasnt any worse than other allied raids. A lot of postwar hot air has been talked about it.


30 posted on 05/17/2013 2:07:34 PM PDT by the scotsman (i)
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To: the scotsman

Here is a picture of Gibson and his crew entering the Lancaster prior to the mission. Every...single...man died during the course of the war.

31 posted on 05/17/2013 3:14:10 PM PDT by 0.E.O
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To: the scotsman

Dresden was different in nature from Hamburg, or Tokyo, or the other fire bomb attacks. It was a war crime then, and would certainly be under the current rules of war. Harris did more to earn a place in prison after the war than did Doenitz; Harris had the good fortune to be on the winning side, and escaped justice for his terrorism while Doenitz was a victim of ‘victor’s justice’.


32 posted on 05/17/2013 3:26:18 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: the scotsman
I saw the The Dam Busters on Netflix last year. Unfortunately they do not have the movie right now. :(
33 posted on 05/17/2013 3:26:48 PM PDT by GreenLanternCorps
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To: the scotsman

34 posted on 05/17/2013 3:34:06 PM PDT by GreenLanternCorps
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To: Forward the Light Brigade

If Germany had won the war there would be no talk whats so ever about ‘’war crimes’’. What would be is you, me and just about the whole world getting our teeth smashed in with a rifle butt ten times a day for the honor being slaves of Der Fuhrer.


35 posted on 05/17/2013 8:34:48 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: hattend

Yeah it’s blip alright and one the bastards deserved. Lord knows what the Wehrmacht, the SS and the Luftwaffe did while they were running amok. And if Nazi Germany had won the war they sure as hell wouldn’t be navel gazing saying “Gee that was rotten thing we did to the Jews and rest of the world. We shouldn’t have done that’’.


36 posted on 05/17/2013 8:42:17 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: PAR35
Why is it a war crime? These were the people and the nation who are deliberately responsible for launching a six-year cataclysm humanity barely survived. And they are the nation and people who committed the most horrific and diabolical mass murder the likes of which the world had never seen and should have made even the Devil weep. Why should Dresden have been spared what other cities in Britain and Holland and Poland had not? In a chilling and mesmerizing rant in 1942 Josef Goebbels presented a suicide pack with the German people by asking them if they wanted "Total War'' They accepted. I've no sympathy for the Dresden of 68 years ago and the German people.
37 posted on 05/17/2013 9:06:40 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: PAR35

Who stands trial from the US Air Force? You as a nation participated in that campaign so your equally guilty. In the 1950’s the U.S. military justified its position and stated it was a legitimate target.


38 posted on 05/18/2013 12:40:02 AM PDT by Hawker Tempest
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To: the scotsman
Here is the link to the N.Y. Times coverage of the dam bombing.

May 18, 1943.

39 posted on 05/18/2013 5:48:20 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Hawker Tempest

Review your history. The RAF (and with Polish support) targeted the residential and cultural center of the city in the night raid. The US targeted the rail yards; when bad weather obscured the targets, the remaining planes bombed by radar, and did hit civilian areas, although those areas were not targeted.

In short, the US treated Dresden raids as they normally would, the British as a different kind of warfare. Even Churchill was not willing to give whole-hearted endorsement of this RAF terror bombing.


40 posted on 05/18/2013 7:00:02 AM PDT by PAR35
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To: jmacusa
Why is it a war crime?

Deliberately targeting civilian areas to terrorize them and break morale, and the intentional destruction of cultural icons.

And they are the nation and people who committed the most horrific and diabolical mass murder the likes of which the world had never seen

Even if you qualified that statement with 'to that date'; it would still be false. Hitler was a piker when it came to mass murder and ethnic cleansing compared to Stalin. Not so sure about the Nips. Their numbers range from 3 million to 30 million, probably much closer to the larger number.

Why should Dresden have been spared what other cities in Britain and Holland and Poland had not?

Dresden and Cologne suffered massive destruction during the air war, as did most notably Coventry on the English side. But the Cologne and Hamburg raids are recognized as acts of war, different in nature from what happened in Dresden. I'm a bit puzzled by your reference to Holland. Perhaps you are referring to Rotterdam, which is completely different in nature from the air raids on Germany and England. At the time the Rotterdam raid was launched, the Dutch had made the city the scene of a land battle. So the Rotterdam raid was tactical, rather than strategic, in nature.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are posting on subjects that you aren't really knowledgeable about, rather than assume that you are a Stalinist at heart.

41 posted on 05/18/2013 7:24:04 AM PDT by PAR35
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To: PAR35

You’ll give me the benefit of the doubt? You arrogant bastard. The Holocaust was calculated slaughter conducted on an industrial basis involving an entire state in the process. While it didn’t match numbers of Stalin’s blundering slaughter, it’s scope and ferocity were monstrous. ‘’Deliberately targeting civilian areas’’. Yeah. That was the general idea.So what? War is horrible. The more horrible it is, the sooner it’s over.Dresden was no different than any other city in Germany, it was a legitimate target. It’s large rail yards were vital to the German war effort and even if it wasn’t, it’s was an enemy city in the enemys country, ergo, it’s a target.Should it have been left alone so as to become a staging point for massing troops? The Germans bought this on themselves. The Germans launched the damn war, they laid the ground rules and paid the price for it. Tough beans for them. As to Rotterdam, the city had surrendered but somehow the message didn’t get to the Luftwaffe, a ‘’radio malfunction’’ and the Germans leveled most of the city.Goebbles screamed for “Total War’’ and the Allies gave it to them.


42 posted on 05/18/2013 8:54:23 AM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: jmacusa
You arrogant bastard.

Looks like I was right. Argumentum ad hominem is the refuge of the ignorant and those unarmed for intellectual discussion. I understand your frustration. You have my sympathy.

43 posted on 05/18/2013 10:08:47 AM PDT by PAR35
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To: PAR35

Trust me I’m neither ignorant or frustrated. What I am is very knowledgeable of WW2 history. It must suck to be you. You have my sympathy. It’s has to be lonely being so arrogant. I’m grateful God didn’t make me you.


44 posted on 05/18/2013 7:56:19 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: PAR35

Hindsight is 20/20.....we can debate whether or not Dresden was effective or not towards ultimately winning the war....perhaps it wasn’t.....but that didn’t make it a crime.


45 posted on 05/18/2013 8:00:38 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator

I’m not questioning whether or not it was effective. As to whether or not it was a crime - it certainly would be under the 1949 convention, but of course the convention wasn’t in effect at the time. On the other hand, a number of the Nazis were tried and convicted based upon ex post facto standards. So based upon that precedent, I’m willing to declare Harris’ acts criminal. Even Churchill expressed concern that Dresden might have gone to far. I’m not aware of similar comments from him on Cologne, or Hamburg, or the other major targets.


46 posted on 05/18/2013 8:20:39 PM PDT by PAR35
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