Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

FBI agents die in Virginia training accident
The Guardian, UK ^ | 19 May 2013 | Associated Press

Posted on 05/19/2013 6:22:46 PM PDT by pepperdog

FBI agents die in Virginia training accidentPair of agents from elite hostage rescue team (excerpt)

(Excerpt) Read more at guardian.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Government; News/Current Events; US: Virginia
KEYWORDS: accident; christopherlorek; fbi; hostagerescue; stephenshaw
Very strange article.
1 posted on 05/19/2013 6:22:46 PM PDT by pepperdog
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: pepperdog

Off the coast makes it sound like they were practicing some kind of boat rescue.


2 posted on 05/19/2013 6:25:31 PM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: pepperdog

more info

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/05/19/fbi-agents-killed-in-training-accident/2324687/

...WAVY-TV in Norfolk reported that the agents were killed in an accident involving a helicopter during a training exercise...


3 posted on 05/19/2013 6:25:45 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: cripplecreek

Been there,
Done that.


4 posted on 05/19/2013 6:33:37 PM PDT by billorites (freepo ergo sum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: pepperdog

Could they have been involved in the Boston Bomber Ja-sar HRT when he was hiding in the boat. I know HRT WAS THERE.


5 posted on 05/19/2013 6:38:32 PM PDT by seeker41 (Take back your country before it is too late-STOP islamic expansion in the USA)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: jjotto
"we're going to need more guys I guess"
6 posted on 05/19/2013 6:39:23 PM PDT by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: BenLurkin

Yep. Still plenty of Tea Partiers to intimidate.


7 posted on 05/19/2013 6:40:25 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: pepperdog

I do not want to besmirch the memory of these two fine FBI agents but why does it seem that every law enforcement,quasi law enforcement, government organization,private company has it’s own SWAT, hostage rescue, guerrilla, sniper,etc........?


8 posted on 05/19/2013 6:43:28 PM PDT by Cyman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: pepperdog

RIP.


9 posted on 05/19/2013 6:52:55 PM PDT by fieldmarshaldj (Resist We Much)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: cripplecreek

Are they expecting a hostage situation on a boat at sea? Or are the practicing for a seaborne terrorist attack?


10 posted on 05/19/2013 6:53:53 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Inside every liberal and WOD defender is a totalitarian screaming to get out.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: FReepers
FReepers

Do you realize that Free Republic is one of the few truly Conservative bastions?
On FR we collate and digest news and organize and join Conservative causes.
We expose government excess and hold politicians feet to the fire.

If FR ceases to exist, Conservatives will lose a valuable tool.


Click The Pic To Donate

Support The Resistance, Donate Monthly If You Can

11 posted on 05/19/2013 6:54:17 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (My faith and politics cannot be separated)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cyman

No, I know what you mean. When I read this, my first thought was that this is extremely wasteful. Don’t we have military forces, better trained for this type of thing?

I don’t know if there is some kind of Posse Comitatus issue associated, but this just seems like bloated government, each one duplicating the functions and probably not doing it nearly as well.

I don’t want to sully the memories of these FBI personnel either, but I think this is a question to be asked. It doesn’t make sense to me, but...I will keep an open mind.


12 posted on 05/19/2013 7:06:54 PM PDT by rlmorel ("We'll drink to good health for them that have it coming." Boss Spearman in Open Range)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: BenLurkin
"I hope that's not a hostage..."

13 posted on 05/19/2013 7:14:04 PM PDT by Ol' Dan Tucker (People should not be afraid of the government. Government should be afraid of the people)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: pepperdog
The FBI Hostage Roasting Team was practicing their BBQ skills.

Not to mention the fact that they have to practice shooting people to death As they attempt to escape the flames.

The F.L.I.R. Project

14 posted on 05/19/2013 7:14:45 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum ("“Somebody has to be courageous enough to stand up to the bullies." Dr. Ben Carson)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: pepperdog

Prayers for the families. It’s unfortunate that, if there had to be an accident, that the sniper Lon Horiuchi (despicable killer of unarmed woman and her baby) wasn’t among the casualties.


15 posted on 05/19/2013 7:16:20 PM PDT by House Atreides
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: rlmorel
Time is of the essence. How far away is the closest military base with a specialized unit? If you or your loved one was a victim, how long would you be willing to wait. Plus the fact that it violates the Constitution, it is not a viable alternative.
16 posted on 05/19/2013 7:20:58 PM PDT by Glennb51
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: jjotto

Time for a backgrounder on these FBI agents. Are they Democrats who knew too much about Obama or Hillary? Were they Republicans? Can Freepers let us know more about the agents who died in the so-called training exercise?


17 posted on 05/19/2013 7:39:57 PM PDT by TexGrill (Don't mess with Texas)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: TexGrill

Did they know too much about Hillary or Obama?

Wow! I hadn’t even thought of that angle. Worth pursuing.


18 posted on 05/19/2013 7:43:56 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants

Probably an Achille Lauro type incident in US waters, or a US flagged ship.


19 posted on 05/19/2013 7:48:46 PM PDT by wrench
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: pepperdog

what agency did Bush use as his
Ruby Ridge murderers?


20 posted on 05/19/2013 8:09:09 PM PDT by RockyTx
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RockyTx

It was indeed FBI HRT.

Definitely guys capable of knowing too much.


21 posted on 05/19/2013 8:13:30 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: jjotto

What is HRT?

Were these agents involved in an operation that would be damaging to Obama?


22 posted on 05/19/2013 8:16:01 PM PDT by wintertime
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Cyman

Cuz it’s gonna take a lotta fancy toys to kill a Constitution and 75 million patriots.


23 posted on 05/19/2013 8:16:33 PM PDT by tomkat (solve for x: Baraq = islamite .. islam = enemy ... Baraq = x)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: House Atreides

I don’t think the baby that she was holding died. The FBI murderer shot her in the head. The teenage son was shot in the back by the feds in a separate incident.


24 posted on 05/19/2013 8:28:12 PM PDT by PAR35
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: tomkat

I used to feel bad when things like this happened. Now I just.....can’t.


25 posted on 05/19/2013 8:35:55 PM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: E. Pluribus Unum

Were these two agents at Waco? If not, I don’t know were you get off besmirching the names of dead men who, as far as you can possibly know, have not done anything wrong or dishonorable.


26 posted on 05/19/2013 8:47:12 PM PDT by Wyrd bi­ ful arŠd (Gone Galt, 11/07/12----No king but Christ! Don't tread on me!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: wintertime

Hostage Rescue Team —


27 posted on 05/19/2013 8:48:25 PM PDT by NavySEAL F-16 (Reagan Conservative)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: jjotto; TexGrill

That was the very first thing that crossed my mind — Obamacide.


28 posted on 05/19/2013 8:49:12 PM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: TexGrill

There are an awful lotta fatal “training accidents” lately - military and otherwise.


29 posted on 05/19/2013 9:04:54 PM PDT by Mygirlsmom ("I am not the President, I just play one after I watch some TV")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: pepperdog

Communist Goals (1963) Congressional Record—Appendix, pp. A34-A35 January 10, 1963

#35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.

http://rense.com/general32/americ.htm

(To “Dismantle” is subjective, I suppose.)


30 posted on 05/19/2013 9:11:11 PM PDT by Mortrey (Impeach President Soros)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Mortrey

#35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.

The FBI is doing a real fine job at this by themselves! Almost as good as the BATFE has done.


31 posted on 05/19/2013 9:48:33 PM PDT by B4Ranch (AGENDA: Grinding America Down ----- http://vimeo.com/63749370)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: pepperdog

Hostage rescue team.....door kicking teaparty harassment team.....IRS persecution enablement team..... call them
what you want but in the end they are a bunch of hired
guns selling their souls and their skills. And the people
they chose as the customers for their skills are the criminals infesting Mordor on the Potomac.


32 posted on 05/19/2013 10:07:26 PM PDT by nvscanman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: wintertime

What is HRT? I am sure another FReeper must have said it is the hostage rescue team of the FBI. What is really unique about those guys however is that it is tier 1 operations team. There are only two other (known) tier 1 units - DEVGRU (better known as SEAL Team 6) and CAG (better known as Delta Force). In counter-terrorism/hostage-rescue duties, the HRT is better trained than Tier 2 units like the normal SEAL teams (non ST6 teams) and the Army Special Forces (Green Berets).


33 posted on 05/19/2013 11:53:25 PM PDT by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Glennb51

I would argue that the military is much more widely distributed with the proper equipment and training than the FBI could ever be.

How many helicopters does the military have versus the FBI? Don’t you think anyone who is part of a hostage rescue or response team would be on call and able to travel anywhere in the country at a moment’s notice?


34 posted on 05/20/2013 3:25:14 AM PDT by rlmorel ("We'll drink to good health for them that have it coming." Boss Spearman in Open Range)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Wyrd bi├░ ful ar├Žd

I agree. There is no call for some of the comments I see on here, and it is embarrassing.

There is a lot to dislike about the way various governmental agencies are constituted and tasked these days (as I am referencing in my posts) but these men were doing their job.


35 posted on 05/20/2013 3:29:34 AM PDT by rlmorel ("We'll drink to good health for them that have it coming." Boss Spearman in Open Range)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: spetznaz

Thank you very much.


36 posted on 05/20/2013 5:02:17 AM PDT by wintertime
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Wyrd bi├░ ful ar├Žd

They’re agents of an out-of-control feral government. That’s all you need to know.


37 posted on 05/20/2013 5:29:48 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum ("“Somebody has to be courageous enough to stand up to the bullies." Dr. Ben Carson)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: E. Pluribus Unum
The FBI Hostage Roasting Team was practicing their BBQ skills. Not to mention the fact that they have to practice shooting people to death As they attempt to escape the flames.

I am happy to see your post. In my opinion, that was one of the opening salvos by the government against the people in this country. We must keep in our minds what they have already done, as they are capable of doing it again.

38 posted on 05/20/2013 6:00:41 AM PDT by 101stAirborneVet
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: rlmorel
I agree. There is no call for some of the comments I see on here, and it is embarrassing.

There is a lot to dislike about the way various governmental agencies are constituted and tasked these days (as I am referencing in my posts) but these men were doing their job.

I mourn any loss of life. I am saddened that these two humans died. Perhaps they had families at home. However, they will not escape my criticism as agents of this federal government, specifically the agency known to implement "shoot on sight" rules of engagement against Americans.

39 posted on 05/20/2013 6:05:23 AM PDT by 101stAirborneVet
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Wyrd bi├░ ful ar├Žd

These may have been good men, but it is hard to forgive an FBI that has never apologized for the slaughter of innocents at Ruby Ridge and Waco. Those incidents may be twenty years old or so, but the are not forgotten. I have always believed they were the events that first exposed the rot within the US government. Beginning with those murders it became apparent that we now have an “us versus them” situation in this country, which is a reality that becomes more obvious each day. All agencies of the former federal, but now fascist government, have decided to wage war against the freedom loving people of America.


40 posted on 05/20/2013 6:33:16 AM PDT by Jay Redhawk (Zombies are just intelligent, good looking democrats.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: 101stAirborneVet

I completely understand the criticisms of the FBI (amongst others) but I don’t know anything about a “shoot on sight” policy.

In what context do you mean?


41 posted on 05/20/2013 8:42:12 AM PDT by rlmorel ("We'll drink to good health for them that have it coming." Boss Spearman in Open Range)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: rlmorel
I completely understand the criticisms of the FBI (amongst others) but I don’t know anything about a “shoot on sight” policy.

In what context do you mean?

At Ruby Ridge, the FBI HRT commander wrote a rules of engagement memorandum of instruction for his team that included "shoot on sight" rules of engagement. Lon Horiuchi, the HRT sniper who shot and killed Vicki Weaver while she was holding their baby, was operating under this ROE.

42 posted on 05/20/2013 8:56:23 AM PDT by 101stAirborneVet
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: 101stAirborneVet

I understand. Is that the current ROE as standard procedure?


43 posted on 05/20/2013 8:57:58 AM PDT by rlmorel ("We'll drink to good health for them that have it coming." Boss Spearman in Open Range)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: rlmorel
I understand. Is that the current ROE as standard procedure?

ROE are mission specific. The on-scene commander issues them based on the situation.

I look to the past actual behavior of the HRT (Waco, Ruby Ridge) for indications of what they are capable of doing, and willing to do.

They literally assassinated an unarmed civilian holding a baby. I have no doubt they would do it again, given the opportunity.

44 posted on 05/20/2013 9:03:12 AM PDT by 101stAirborneVet
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: rlmorel

I understand your argument, but must disagree. Although many here on this site rail against local law enforcement having military equipment such as helos, M2 machine guns, M16s, Lenco Bears and Bear Cats (armored vehicles), night vision goggles, infrared goggles, robots, etc, there is such equipment owned by many local law enforcement agencies.

The Officers assigned to these units train regularly with their equipment. They study previous events and practice “what if” scenarios in order to be able to deploy in a moments notice.

While the military does have special units, they have a chain of command that must be followed. Again, time is of the essence. If you doubt that, read the book “Terror at Breslan”.

In addition to the above, I stand by my statement that deploying the military in such a situation is unconstitutional.


45 posted on 05/20/2013 9:23:28 AM PDT by Glennb51
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Glennb51

I don’t know that it IS unconstitutional, but I agree that it may well be so, which is why I specifically stated so in my original post.

I am not “railing” against this, and I am familiar with the concept of bureaucratic chains, decision-wise, logistically, and materially. I thought I made my point in a non-emotional and rational way. I think many of the other comments on this forum are “railing” or emotionally based, but I thought I made a reasonable and valid point.

I will presume that you agree a chain exists that MUST be followed in all organizations that would be capable of carrying out this mission. I think we could both agree that the decision chain between the US Military, the FBI and a State Police might differ materially in practice, but I don’t readily agree that one is defacto going to be better than the others.

Additionally (just for example) if there are maritime/naval assets needed that are required to carry out an offshore task in a given location (and the FBI doesn’t have the assets with performance/range/firepower to carry out the task) won’t the FBI have to include another branch (such as the US Navy) in its process?

My point is, when minutes count, it is going to be generally hours to react whether it is the military, the FBI or the State Police.


46 posted on 05/20/2013 10:38:07 AM PDT by rlmorel ("We'll drink to good health for them that have it coming." Boss Spearman in Open Range)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: rlmorel

I did not specify that you were “railing”, it was a general statement.

Again, I would not be willing to wait for days for the military chain of command to be followed when an immediate reaction team can be deployed in minutes. I see such teams respond frequently. There is a difference between having gunships with an HRT respond on the high seas to having a SWAT team respond to an active shooter situation at a school.

As far as the constitutional issue, I will invite you to read:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3022018/posts


47 posted on 05/21/2013 7:02:18 AM PDT by Glennb51
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: Glennb51

My issue is not with the Posse Comitatus act or what it covers.

You and I can both agree that there can be all the constitutional protections, laws, and safeguards in place, but if they are not observed, then they aren’t worth the paper they are written on.

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn had a great passage in “The Gulag Archipelago” where he talked about what a perfect document the Soviet Constitution was. It just wasn’t followed.

I don’t know what the answer is, but in a time of increasing government power (and that includes town and state government as well) I think there has to be a viable recourse to giving every town and municipality helicopters, boats, night vision and automatic weapons to man their SWAT teams, bomb teams and so on.

I think it is dangerous to concentrate power in those areas, and I certainly don’t think it is cost effective.


48 posted on 05/21/2013 8:39:03 AM PDT by rlmorel ("We'll drink to good health for them that have it coming." Boss Spearman in Open Range)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson