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WA:Spokane homeowner who shot carjacker charged with manslaughter
mynorthwest.com ^ | 29 May, 2013 | Jillian Raftery

Posted on 05/30/2013 6:04:38 AM PDT by marktwain

Dori thinks it should be legal to use deadly force to protect your property, but Spokane prosecutors disagree. They announced Wednesday that they are charging Gail Gerlach, who shot and killed a carjacker, with First Degree Manslaughter.

According to reports, 56-year-old Gail Herbert Gerlach had left his Chevy Suburban running in his driveway to warm it up on a cold day in March when Brendon Kaluza-Graham tried to drive away with it. Gail fired his gun, hitting Brendon in the head and killing him.

Gail said he saw Brendon raise his arm in his direction; he thought Brendon had a gun. But police later searched the car and didn't find a weapon.

After the shooting, KREM TV reported that Kaluza-Graham had been caught stealing cars four times in the past, and had been convicted of assaulting a police officer. Police report that he'd had multiple run-ins with law enforcement where he had been armed with knives.

(Excerpt) Read more at mynorthwest.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: Washington
KEYWORDS: armedcitizen; banglist; car; guncontrol; manslaughter; secondamendment; wa
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Will a jury convict him?
1 posted on 05/30/2013 6:04:38 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain
Gail said he saw Brendon raise his arm in his direction; he thought Brendon had a gun.

If police can (and do) use this excuse, why not private citizens?

2 posted on 05/30/2013 6:08:32 AM PDT by umgud (2A can't survive dem majorities)
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To: marktwain

They might. Convict or not convict, she was apparently not in fear for her life when she shot. She’s probably in for six figures of legal costs, though, either way.


3 posted on 05/30/2013 6:08:46 AM PDT by Attention Surplus Disorder (This stuff we're going through now, this is nothing compared to the middle ages.)
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To: marktwain

I wouldn’t.


4 posted on 05/30/2013 6:09:01 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: marktwain

Makes you want to pay a carjacker to carjack the judge doesn’t it?


5 posted on 05/30/2013 6:09:15 AM PDT by jsanders2001
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To: marktwain
Will a jury convict him?

Washington state? 50/50

6 posted on 05/30/2013 6:09:51 AM PDT by TexasCajun
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To: Attention Surplus Disorder

He


7 posted on 05/30/2013 6:10:07 AM PDT by George from New England (escaped CT in 2006, now living north of Tampa)
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To: marktwain
He shouldn't plea-bargain this out.

And he should demand a jury of his own peers, not the victim's peers.

8 posted on 05/30/2013 6:10:57 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (It is the deviants who are the bullies.)
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To: marktwain

“But police later searched the car and didn’t find a weapon.”

The car was/is the weapon. It is not beyond a perp to drive him over or ram him.


9 posted on 05/30/2013 6:12:16 AM PDT by George from New England (escaped CT in 2006, now living north of Tampa)
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To: umgud
If police can (and do) use this excuse, why not private citizens?

Was thinking the same thing.

"I was in fear for my life."

"He motioned like he had a weapon."

Just unreal.

10 posted on 05/30/2013 6:13:10 AM PDT by rarestia (It's time to water the Tree of Liberty.)
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To: Attention Surplus Disorder
Convict or not convict, she was apparently not in fear for her life when she shot - but: "Gail said he saw Brendon raise his arm in his direction; he thought Brendon had a gun."

I 100% believe him that he was in fear for his life. I would never vote to convict him or anyone else removing a predator from society and experiencing an obviously justifiable fear for his life. He merely shot to stop the threat, and I'm glad he hit center-mass on the portion of the threat that was visible. I certainly don't blame him for misinterpreting a gesture from a violent criminal in the act of committing a felony as a threat to his life. Not guilty, all court costs to be paid by the prosecution's office. Ammo to be replaced at taxpayer expense.

11 posted on 05/30/2013 6:15:10 AM PDT by Pollster1 ("Shall not be infringed" is unambiguous.)
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To: marktwain
Gail said he saw Brendon raise his arm in his direction; he thought Brendon had a gun. But police later searched the car and didn't find a weapon.

Cops get away with this excuse every day. Why can't we?

12 posted on 05/30/2013 6:18:28 AM PDT by montag813
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To: marktwain

Unfortunately but in most states its illegal to defend your property by shooting the thief.Now if the owner of the vehicle was standing in the front of the vehicle in his driveway and the perp attempted to run him down.This would probably have a more positive outlook for the property owner.

Unfortunately I think he’s toast.


13 posted on 05/30/2013 6:19:22 AM PDT by puppypusher (The World is going to the dogs.)
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To: marktwain

Washington state law (I think, current. via Google). It would seem that the shooter has a legal leg to stand on. Personally, I think lethal force is only justifiable in the face of potentially lethal force.

RCW 9A.16.050
Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.

Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his or her presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he or she is.

AND

Certain property is considered special and it is automatically a felony to steal such property. The Revised Code of Washington 9A.560.65 makes it a Class B felony to commit theft of any motor vehicle, regardless of that vehicle’s value. Under 9A.56.300, it is also a Class B felony to steal a firearm of any value. If more than one firearm is taken, the theft of each firearm is charged as a separate offense.

Read more: What Constitutes Felony Theft in Washington State? | eHow http://www.ehow.com/info_8484497_constitutes-felony-theft-washington-state.html#ixzz2UmW3WLnB


14 posted on 05/30/2013 6:20:00 AM PDT by Jack of all Trades (Hold your face to the light, even though for the moment you do not see.)
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To: Attention Surplus Disorder

They might. Convict or not convict, she was apparently not in fear for her life when she shot. She’s probably in for six figures of legal costs, though, either way.


From the article: “Gail said he saw Brendon raise his arm in his direction; he thought Brendon had a gun. But police later searched the car and didn’t find a weapon.”

Cops use that excuse all the time. Good luck proving to a jury (and it is the prosecution’s job to do so) that she didn’t fear for her life.

BTW, this is yet another reason I moved from Washington state to Kentucky two years ago, after 45 years in the Seattle area.


15 posted on 05/30/2013 6:20:46 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: puppypusher

In Texas we would give her an award!!!!


16 posted on 05/30/2013 6:21:04 AM PDT by ontap (ion. Would you suggest that that organization)
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To: TexasCajun

Washington state? 50/50


It’s a little better in Spokane than in the west side.


17 posted on 05/30/2013 6:21:15 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: marktwain

“Will a jury convict him?”. Answer, NO! But, he will have to pay for a defense which will cost him thousands.


18 posted on 05/30/2013 6:25:22 AM PDT by Old Retired Army Guy
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To: Pollster1

.........I hope a million people move out of the state as a result of this with most of them coming out of the liberal/marxist prosecutors county. The only way to teach ANYTHING to a rogue “government”, whether federal, state, or local is to hit em in the pocket book.

I also think that the governmental entity that prosecutes someone, at the judges discretion minimally, should have to pay attorneys fees when prosecutors go rogue. And, make no mistake, that prosecutor has the discretion to file or not to file. I would bet a hundred bucks he is just a diehard liberal gun grabber and racist, meaning if the perp was white and the shooter black there would be no prosecution.


19 posted on 05/30/2013 6:25:38 AM PDT by Cen-Tejas (it's the debt bomb stupid!)
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To: marktwain
Kaluza-Graham had been caught stealing cars four times in the past, and had been convicted of assaulting a police officer. Police report that he'd had multiple run-ins with law enforcement where he had been armed with knives.

The thief's grandparents, who raised him, called him a "sweet kid" who made some mistakes in life.

"I know taking the car was wrong, but it's not a capital crime he needed to be executed for."

Yeah, a real sweet kid. A question, Grama: How does a sweet kid have multiple run-ins with the law and you still call him a sweet kid? BTW, he wasn't executed. He was shot while caught in the act of committing a crime and Gail had every right to do what he could to stop the "sweet kid".

20 posted on 05/30/2013 6:25:54 AM PDT by econjack (Some people are as dumb as soup.)
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To: puppypusher

When I lived in Seattle, there was a California attorney being interviewed on local talk radio about California (not washington, but interesting) law regarding using deadly force. Here is the example he used to drive the point home:

If you are a woman who has just been the victim of a home invasion and the perp has just brutally raped you and left you for dead, as you lay on your living room floor he is exiting your apartment. You suddenly notice your hand is touching your pistol under your sofa. In a fit of adrenylin, you grab the pistol, force yourself up, aim the pistol and shoot him in the doorway. He dies of his wounds.

You are guilty of first degree manslaughter (at the least) because the guy was leaving and not a current threat to your life.

I no longer take the law seriously in this country.


21 posted on 05/30/2013 6:25:56 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: econjack

The thief’s grandparents, who raised him, called him a “sweet kid” who made some mistakes in life.


In all seriousness, Ted Bundy comes to mind. His friends and family simply could not believe he had done what he was accused of. Everyone thought he was a really nice guy.

Judge a tree by it’s fruit, granny.


22 posted on 05/30/2013 6:29:06 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: marktwain

You own a gun you need to know all the laws of your state.

I love South Carolina. Protect your property and self.


23 posted on 05/30/2013 6:32:34 AM PDT by Baseballguy (If we knew what we know now in Oct would we do anything different?)
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To: cuban leaf

I volunteer to serve on this jury...in fact, I don’t do much more than send in an absentee ballot: NOT GUILTY.


24 posted on 05/30/2013 6:33:15 AM PDT by Mouton (108th MI Group.....68-71)
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To: onedoug; marktwain

Me neither.

I guess there’s no castle law there. That will make criminals think twice about trying to jack your stuff.


25 posted on 05/30/2013 6:35:03 AM PDT by smokingfrog ( ==> sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: rarestia

“the officer felt threatened...”


26 posted on 05/30/2013 6:35:58 AM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: marktwain

“Gail said he saw Brendon raise his arm in his direction; he thought Brendon had a gun. “

If a cop shot someone under the same circumstances it would be legal.


27 posted on 05/30/2013 6:37:16 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Baseballguy

(6) “Concealable weapon” means a firearm having a length of less than twelve inches measured along its greatest dimension that must be carried in a manner that is hidden from public view in normal wear of clothing except when needed for self defense, defense of others, and the protection of real or personal property.


28 posted on 05/30/2013 6:38:04 AM PDT by Baseballguy (If we knew what we know now in Oct would we do anything different?)
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To: TexasCajun

Will a jury convict him?
Washington state? 50/50


Spokane? 80/20?
Big cities usually equates to Progressive majority.


29 posted on 05/30/2013 6:38:45 AM PDT by Tupelo (The Government lies, then the media lies to cover up the government lies.)
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To: marktwain

First of all, some on this thread are under the impression that the shooter is a woman; it was a man. Anyway, the guy had left his car running in front of his house (stupid, and illegal in Washington). And as far as the furtive movement, the thief was shot in the back of the head as he was driving away - in fact, he actually made it several blocks before running into a utility pole. It seems unlikely that a person running out of their house would be able to see any kind of movement through the tinted back window and past several headrests.


30 posted on 05/30/2013 6:40:04 AM PDT by stormer
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To: Attention Surplus Disorder
HE. The article says "Gail" is a "he."

Where was his brother Sue when all this took place?

31 posted on 05/30/2013 6:42:02 AM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: Tupelo

Have you actually been to Spokane? It’s not exactly a “big city” or a hotbed of liberalism.


32 posted on 05/30/2013 6:42:16 AM PDT by stormer
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To: Secret Agent Man

So a man or woman who is “deputized” and expected to be honest and forthright can simply state they felt “threatened,” yet a citizen, supposedly presumed innocent until proven guilty, is immediately suspect when they shoot and kill someone stealing their property, grand theft auto, a felony.

This is further proof that we no more “own” our property than we do our own lives. We can’t protect our property from anyone or anything. Apparently only the police, who’ll just as soon shoot you on your own property, are permitted to shoot the bad guys.

Getting real tired of your shit, law enforcement.


33 posted on 05/30/2013 6:45:01 AM PDT by rarestia (It's time to water the Tree of Liberty.)
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To: marktwain
Will a jury convict him?

NO, and a grand jury shouldn't indict.

34 posted on 05/30/2013 6:45:26 AM PDT by 2001convSVT (Going Galt as fast as I can.)
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To: puppypusher

Saw an article yesterday where an Iraq and Afghanistan vet accosted a crook breaking into his house. He told crook he better flee and he then fired the warning shot into the ground with his “assault rifle.” He DIDN’T fire the shot into the crook’s head or chest.

Guess who was arrested and what charge was filed?


35 posted on 05/30/2013 6:46:11 AM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: marktwain

The Spokane boys are trying to “send a message”. Don’t shoot Obama voters while they are in the act of committing a felony.


36 posted on 05/30/2013 6:48:06 AM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (If you think ObamaCare is a train wreck, wait until you see the amnesty bill.)
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To: umgud

FBI shoots unarmed alledged accomplice to Boston terrorist.

government troops shoot unarmed terrorist in boat.

Not hearing of any penalty.


37 posted on 05/30/2013 6:49:23 AM PDT by School of Rational Thought
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To: Baseballguy

“You own a gun you need to know all the laws of your state.”

Very true. We moved to VA from MD 5 years ago, and we are much happier here

However, MD allows for use of deadly force to protect property while VA doesn’t., and here, there has to be an immediate threat of grave physical injury to allow use of a firearm.

In this case, in the Freak State, all would be OK, but here in the Commonwealth, the woman would be charged with murder.


38 posted on 05/30/2013 6:51:36 AM PDT by VanShuyten ("a shadow...draped nobly in the folds of a gorgeous eloquence.")
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To: marktwain

remote start with automatic door locking...it’s a wunnerful thing.


39 posted on 05/30/2013 6:59:48 AM PDT by camle (keep an open mind and someone will fill it full of something for you)
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To: Jack of all Trades

If you have quoted that word-for-word it seems this person would be in the clear. I mean it doesn’t say “violent felony” just felony. Clearly the shooter was acting to prevent a felony.

I must say I always get nervous about warming up the car unattended. Thieves steal cars when they aren’t running, this just makes it so easy for them.

But I grew up in NYC in the 70s, I always say I’d lock my car if it was parked in the grand canyon.


40 posted on 05/30/2013 7:02:03 AM PDT by jocon307
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To: marktwain
Gail said he saw Brendon raise his arm in his direction; he thought Brendon had a gun. But police later searched the car and didn't find a weapon.

That's why you keep a cheap throwaway around, which you've never handled without gloves (the ammo as well).

41 posted on 05/30/2013 7:05:56 AM PDT by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed &water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS, NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: marktwain
Will a jury convict him?

If he is lucky enough to get an informed juror on each jury, and he has enough money to hold out, he will be free but broke.

42 posted on 05/30/2013 7:11:03 AM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: SeaDragon

Sheesh, I hate to see that this came out of Spokane.


43 posted on 05/30/2013 7:17:52 AM PDT by RikaStrom ("To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." ~Voltaire)
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To: marktwain

Not if there is one sane person on it.
On the other hand, this is Washington state, so sane people are kind of rare, and are probably kicked out of jury pools...


44 posted on 05/30/2013 7:22:40 AM PDT by Little Ray (How did I end up in this hand-basket, and why is it gettingthe so hot?)
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To: jocon307

I live in a supposedly well-to-do suburb in Connecticut and I wouldn’t do it. I suppose it comes down to the zeal of the prosecutor, the skill of the defense and the luck of the draw with the jury. Watch out for the civil suit though.


45 posted on 05/30/2013 7:25:47 AM PDT by Jack of all Trades (Hold your face to the light, even though for the moment you do not see.)
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To: marktwain

Hope not.They should give him at least TWO awards.One for ridding society of vermin,and another for being a damn good shot!


46 posted on 05/30/2013 7:28:34 AM PDT by bandleader
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To: ProtectOurFreedom

Guess who was arrested and what charge was filed?

The home owner was probably arrested for unlawful discharge of a firearm and probably Reckless Endangerment.

He,The home owner would have been better off just telling the Perp to lay down on the floor until the Law enforcement people come and pick him up.

People have to Remember that you can’t use deadly force unless its being used against you and you fear for your life.

You better be able to describe that fear in detail so a jury will agree with your decision to use deadly force.

Its best to read your states Firearms and use of force Statutes so you know what to do before hand.


47 posted on 05/30/2013 7:32:50 AM PDT by puppypusher (The World is going to the dogs.)
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To: cuban leaf
If you are a woman who has just been the victim of a home invasion and the perp has just brutally raped you and left you for dead . . . You suddenly notice your hand is touching your pistol under your sofa. In a fit of adrenalin, you grab the pistol, force yourself up, aim the pistol and shoot him in the doorway. He dies of his wounds. You are guilty of first degree manslaughter (at the least) because the guy was leaving and not a current threat to your life.

If you're smart, you are only guilty of perjury, and it's not provable in court.

The rapist turned back, said he was going to shoot/stab/beat you to death, took a step toward you, and only then, when your life was in immediate danger, did you decide to shoot. In the moment it took your shaky hand to squeeze the trigger, he turned away, so the bullet hit him in the back, but at the time you started to pull the trigger, your life was in immediate danger.

(1) Don't give any details, truthful or not, without a lawyer, and
(2) don't recant or waver once you have decided how and why your life was in immediate danger when you shot that predator in the back.

48 posted on 05/30/2013 7:40:26 AM PDT by Pollster1 ("Shall not be infringed" is unambiguous.)
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To: stormer

Police investigators recommended no charges but somehow you send the DA know better. I was just wondering how.


49 posted on 05/30/2013 7:42:15 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: marktwain
Will a jury convict him?

Not if I'm on the jury.

Lessons:

(1) Know your state laws about firearms and use of force.

(2) Lock your car when warming it up.

50 posted on 05/30/2013 8:21:29 AM PDT by matt1234 (The NRA: Redefining "Too big to fail.")
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