Spitfire vs Bf 109 and F-14 vs Su-27: the difference is always the pilot

The Aviationist ^ | May 31, 2013 | Dario Leone

[central_va]

Silly but fun.

[mad_as_he$$]

Yea but an F-22 doing a Cobra will raise every hair on your body. Oh and they do it from a dead still vertical position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrBx6G2O6A4

[central_va]

The A-7 development should have been priority one. The IJN spent so much R&D and time on the B6n Tenzan, which to the IJN credit was a good attack air craft, when that should not have been the priority as the B5n was pretty darn good anyway.

[HANG THE EXPENSE]

Holy cow, How did I miss the Marines.Early on in the Pacific the Marine wildcats and army P-40s held the line in the Pacific all the way up to 43.My apologies for that unintended slight.

[HANG THE EXPENSE]

And what held the line until the hellcats got there????? Wildcats and P-40s taking on the most experienced IJ pilots.The hellcats went up against mostly later less qualified pilots but they did wipe them out no mistake about that.

[ansel12]

Ask the Russians. They had 3 fighter regiments with all women pilots. The 556th fighter regiment flew 4400 sorties against the Germans. Two of their pilots are the only women aces. Also had bomber regiments with women pilots. The 46th Taman Guards Bomber Regt. flew 24,000 missions.

The Communist threw away millions of soldier's lives in waste and inefficiency, including females in wholesale slaughter, that is how the Germans had aces with hundreds and hundreds of kills. All that waste and they got 2 female aces for instance.

[SampleMan]

The Italians brought bombers and biplanes to the Battle of Britain. Reports by British pilots were that the biplanes were impossible to hit, but they were also not a threat to the Brits.

[Flag_This]

"And what held the line until the hellcats got there????? Wildcats and P-40s taking on the most experienced IJ pilots.The hellcats went up against mostly later less qualified pilots but they did wipe them out no mistake about that."

Hellcats made their first appearance in Sept. '43. They were at the battle of Tarawa and onwards from there - pretty much for the entire island hopping campaign. In China / Burma, sure the P40 made huge contributions, but Japan had more than 660 experienced pilots (total claimed by P40) and they certainly weren't all dead by the time the Hellcat showed up.

To suggest that the P40 and Wildcat did the bulk of the work and the Hellcat pilots just faced a bunch of clueless student pilots in box kites is just silly.

[X Fretensis]

All that “waste” was responsible for killing 9 out of 10 Germans killed during the war. Had the Russians lost the war in 1942 Ike could have faced over a hundred German divisions in Europe instead of 30 divisions.

[ansel12]

The Soviets lost more than twice the number of the Germans, while fighting on their own soil and the Germans never activated women, not even Rosie the Riveter.

The communists wasted lives by the millions with gimmicks and methods that no civilized country would have done.

[Bill Russell]

Weren’t the German bombers protected by the ME 109s? They flew their Hawkers, and later their Spitfires, to destroy any German plane they could find.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPYdEJI3ir4

[zot]

Thanks for the ping. Beside training and experience, one of the important factors in WW-II was the pilots’ eyesight. For example, Chuck Yeager had 20/15 vision.

[okie01]

Beside training and experience, one of the important factors in WW-II was the pilots’ eyesight. For example, Chuck Yeager had 20/15 vision.

The baseball player, Ted Williams, was a Marine fighter pilot in WW II and in Korea. He achieved, I believe, ace status.

In baseball, his eyesight was fabled. He claimed to be able to see the bat hit the ball. Many umpires keyed on his perception of the strike zone -- if he swung at the pitch, it was a strike; if he kept the bat on shoulder, it was a ball.

I seem to recall rumors that his eyes tested at 20/10.

[advertising guy]

100 % correct

[X Fretensis]

Actually more than 2 to 1. Some estimates are that 9 Russians died for every German killed. German women were
expected to stay home and produce more of the Aryan race.
No need for German women in the war effort when you have millions of slaves from all over Europe to work the mines and factories.

[Lonesome in Massachussets]

[I]imagine flying escort to London and having only 10 minutes to fight before heading back- big mistake made by the Nazi’s.

The Luftwaffe was doing a pretty good job of rolling up the RAF in the south of England, the necessary condition to keep the Royal Navy from interfering with an invasion across the Channel. He was impatient, and didn't want to invade England in any event. He assumed England would come to her senses and sign an armistice with terms agreeable to both countries. Hitler believed that bombing English cities would demoralize the British public and bring about demands for an end to the War.

[tanknetter]

To suggest that the P40 and Wildcat did the bulk of the work and the Hellcat pilots just faced a bunch of clueless student pilots in box kites is just silly.

Hellcat and Corsair pilots were in the good position of being able to leverage the tactics developed by the less-capable Wildcat and P-40 pilots. Remember that the HUGE advantage US pilots had was cultural in nature - Americans were (and still are) innovators and risk-takers ... and were much more willing to try out new things. The Japanese pilots on the other hand came from a culture that rewarded strict adherence to doing things the "official" way.

The most famous of these tactics was, of course, the Thatch Weave, where two F4Fs flying in a "Loose Deuce" formation would entice opposing Zeros into going after one of the Wildcats. The two Wildcats would maneuver in a weaving manner to allow the other Wildcat to get into a killing position.

Another was a tactic called "sliding", where the Wildcat pilot would apply opposite rudder and stick. This could result in the Japanese pilot not only overshooting the Wildcat, but overshooting directly into the firing arc of Wildcat's guns.

Of note also is how the US's emphasis on target-shooting changed. The early-war F4Fs (not going to discuss the later FM-1 and -2) were split into two groups - the F4F-3, which featured four .50 caliber guns (and a non-folding wing) and the F4F-4, which featured six (and a folding wing).

The change was designed to allow pilots to put 50% more bullets onto a target at a time. But the downside was that the guns ran empty earlier (less bullets per gun). In a situation where there were a lot more aircraft available the numbers worked to the US's favor. However older Wildcat pilots like Foss actually preferred the -3 Wildcat because the higher ammunition capacity per gun allowed more targets to be engaged on a single mission. They couldn't saturate a few targets like the -4 (and Hellcat) could, but their shooting skills were good enough that they could "snipe" a good number more and run up higher kill tallys.

[ansel12]

Well, that was what I was saying in post 66.

[Flag_This]

"Remember that the HUGE advantage US pilots had was cultural in nature..."

I can't disagree with you about this - I believe the Japanese military had little regard for their own fighting men. I know they used a slang term to refer to their draftees which equated to the cost of mailing a draft notice. In the case of the Japanese pilots this was manifest by continuing to use an aircraft that, while fast and maneuverable, lacked armor and self-sealing fuel tanks. The Zero couldn't take a punch. Damage that American aircraft could shrug off destroyed the Zero and its valuable pilot. Ultimately, just like the Germans, the Japanese could not train-up replacement pilots quickly enough.

I will also agree with you that Americans frequently used superior tactics, which is exactly why the P40 was as effective as it was in the hands of the Flying Tigers.

[tanknetter]

I believe the Japanese military had little regard for their own fighting men

There was a great disparity between the enlisted ranks and officers, and at the start of the war pilots were pretty much at the top of the food chain. They were seen (and saw themselves) as the natural successors of the Samurai. Much in the same way that all pilots (and particularly fighter pilots) see themselves.

For the Japanese this manifested itself in the refusal to adopt things like armor plating and self-sealing fuel tanks to their aircraft. Doing so was seen as less-than-honorable (funny enough given how armored the Samurai were when going into battle). Yes, they threw the lives of their pilots (and soldiers/citizens in general), but it was seen as the height of honorable conduct to die in battle.

For the American's the height of honorable conduct was doing everything possible to rack up kills, using whatever capabilities kept you alive in doing so. As Patton said, our servicemens' attitude was that it wasn't their duty to die for their country. It was their duty to make the other guy die for his ...