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Little Hope For Beechcraft In USAF Dispute
FORBES ^ | June 12, 2013 | Kenneth Rapoza

Posted on 06/14/2013 9:07:26 AM PDT by KMR

Beechcraft hopes Congress will get involved to kill a U.S. Air Force contract with its Brazilian rival Embraer to make $431 million worth of fighter planes for Afghanistan.

(Excerpt) Read more at forbes.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Government; News/Current Events; US: District of Columbia
KEYWORDS: a29; afghanistan; airforce; alteredtitle; at6; beechcraft; obama; supertucano

1 posted on 06/14/2013 9:07:26 AM PDT by KMR
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To: KMR

Crazies.

Buy Amerikan® you stoopit Fks....


2 posted on 06/14/2013 9:09:36 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: KMR

Make a better product.

Make it cheaper.

Make contributions to the correct party...


3 posted on 06/14/2013 9:09:55 AM PDT by null and void (Republicans create the tools of opression, and the democrats gleefully use them!)
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To: Vendome

You left the ol out of Fks...


4 posted on 06/14/2013 9:10:44 AM PDT by null and void (Republicans create the tools of opression, and the democrats gleefully use them!)
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Beech is still spitting into the wind hoping they won’t get wet.


5 posted on 06/14/2013 9:11:04 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro can't pass E-verify)
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To: KMR
Actual title: Little Hope For Beechcraft In USAF Dispute
6 posted on 06/14/2013 9:15:06 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro can't pass E-verify)
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To: Vendome

So it is better to turn down an existing airplane with a successful flying record to buy a paper airplane that has never flown and its entire history consists of the salesman putting out his arms and making engine sounds with his mouth.

Yea, thats the ticket.


7 posted on 06/14/2013 9:18:36 AM PDT by jim_trent
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To: Vendome

If a company with largely American shareholders can’t beat a rival on competitive tender then why should the taxpayer be forced to subsidize their failure and buy their product anyway?

If this type of plane is so strategically important that a company with largely Brazilian shareholders can’t be allowed to make it then why were they included in the tender process?


8 posted on 06/14/2013 9:19:09 AM PDT by agere_contra (I once saw a movie where only the police and military had guns. It was called 'Schindler's List'.)
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To: KMR

Embraer and Sierra Nevada.

Let’s see now...

Embraer, not a bad airplane maker but Brazil is run by the most anti-American socialist skank in its history right now. Why give her the business?

Sierra Nevada....run by the Ozmen family, Turks who use the wife’s name on the corporate ownership papers to qualify for affirmative action preferences as a “woman owned” business. And Oh Yes, they get points for being anti-Jewish Muslims. But I doubt that either have been to a mosque in years...

Yessirree, that’s the new U.S.A.F., wouldn’t want any fresh faced American boys in Kansas building the airplanes that are supposed to be defending them.


9 posted on 06/14/2013 9:21:41 AM PDT by Regulator
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To: KMR

How much more would the Beechcraft version cost over the Embraer airplane? Since we’re giving the damned things to Afghanistan then go with the lower cost solution.


10 posted on 06/14/2013 9:21:51 AM PDT by 0.E.O
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To: KMR

Bring back the Spads (Sky Raiders) out of storage, it will be a lot cheaper. That’s if they haven’t been chopped up.


11 posted on 06/14/2013 9:28:03 AM PDT by Bringbackthedraft (Remember Ty Woods, Glenn Doherty and Sean Smith? Forgot already?)
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To: 0.E.O

If they are being given to the Afghans why not just give them some Piper Cubs and be done with it? Anything else is an even bigger waste of our money.

I recall that out of 108 Afghan pilot candidates only a hand full, like less than 10 have been successful.


12 posted on 06/14/2013 9:33:50 AM PDT by Sequoyah101
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To: KMR

A Super Tucano by Embraer flying over the Dominican Republic.
The U.S. Air Force is spending over $400 million for 20 of these
aircraft for use by the Afghanistan Air Force.

13 posted on 06/14/2013 9:34:51 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: KMR

Beechcraft doesn’t have a plane ready to go, Embraer does.


14 posted on 06/14/2013 9:35:30 AM PDT by buffaloguy
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To: jim_trent
to buy a paper airplane that has never flown


15 posted on 06/14/2013 9:36:35 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro can't pass E-verify)
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To: KMR

If you get your ass beat twice bawl like a child and ask congress to intervene and change the rules.


16 posted on 06/14/2013 9:36:39 AM PDT by paddles ("The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates." Tacitus)
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To: Bringbackthedraft
Bring back the Spads (Sky Raiders) out of storage, it will be a lot cheaper.

That would be an O&M nightmare of epic proportions, and cost out the wazoo.

17 posted on 06/14/2013 9:37:43 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: jim_trent
"So it is better to turn down an existing airplane with a successful flying record to buy a paper airplane that has never flown and its entire history consists of the salesman putting out his arms and making engine sounds with his mouth."

Good summary of how the US Air Force thinks! And I write that as someone who worked operational test for the USAF before I retired...

18 posted on 06/14/2013 9:46:12 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (Liberals are like locusts...)
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To: Regulator
Embraer, not a bad airplane maker but Brazil is run by the most anti-American socialist skank in its history right now. Why give her the business?/I>

You just answered your own question within the question......

19 posted on 06/14/2013 9:47:05 AM PDT by Red Badger (Want to be surprised? Google your own name......Want to have fun? Google your friend's names........)
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To: Bringbackthedraft
The Skyraider cannot be flown by today's metrosexuals, and it required hi-test gasoline. The USAF doesn't do gasoline anymore. They use bio-jet fuel and are saving up to buy another F22.

With 8 of 108 cadets qualifying, IMO, Afghanistan really needs to start a model airplane club, then a CAP squadron and work their way up, with intense adult supervision.

BTW, if Allah the All Wise wanted these Worthy Oriental Gentlemen to fly, he would have equipped them with carpets.

20 posted on 06/14/2013 10:27:25 AM PDT by Kenny Bunk ("Obama" The Movie. Introducing Reggie Love as "Monica." .)
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To: jim_trent; agere_contra

Hey, I didn’t read the particulars of the article like you guys did.

New Freeper Rule? /s


21 posted on 06/14/2013 10:28:49 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: buffaloguy
Beechcraft doesn’t have a plane ready to go, Embraer does.

For $20 million+ a copy, I believe I could have one ready to go.

22 posted on 06/14/2013 10:30:05 AM PDT by Kenny Bunk ("Obama" The Movie. Introducing Reggie Love as "Monica." .)
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To: Kenny Bunk

The contract specified an off the shelf aircraft ready for immediate purchase. Embraer had one, Beechcraft just had some pretty CGI pictures and no hardware.


23 posted on 06/14/2013 11:13:40 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Vendome

The deal was for an off the shelf, no development aircraft. Embraer showed up with an actual airplane they have been selling for years. Beechcraft showed up with some pretty computer generated pictures and a promise to maybe build an airplane.


24 posted on 06/14/2013 11:15:43 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Regulator

See post 23/24. Embraer showed up with a plane, Beechcraft showed up with promises.


25 posted on 06/14/2013 11:17:38 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: 0.E.O

See post 23/24.


26 posted on 06/14/2013 11:18:04 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012

$20 million apiece? For those?
Hell, A-10s only cost $16.3 million in current dollars.
This is a crooked deal. I wonder where the rest of money is going?


27 posted on 06/14/2013 11:40:17 AM PDT by Little Ray (How did I end up in this hand-basket, and why is it gettingthe so hot?)
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To: Bringbackthedraft
Many folks have suggested that, I found this at Wikipedia:

As the U.S. ended its direct involvement in the war, it transferred the remainder of its Skyraiders to the South Vietnamese, and by 1973, all remaining Skyraiders in U.S. inventories had been turned over to the VNAF.[27] Unlike their American counterparts, whose combat tours were generally limited to 12 months, individual South Vietnamese Skyraider pilots ran up many thousands of combat hours in the A-1, and many senior VNAF pilots were extremely skilled in the operation of the aircraft.

So it reads like that isn't an option.

I have thought that reactivating 10 to 24 A-37’s and T-37’s would be a nice idea until the Tascano or new Beech's were ready. Many years later still nothing has been delivered.

Seemed like a nice idea: clear a little room out near Tucson, get some support in the air in Afghanistan, get some stick time for their new pilots not sure when the new planes will be delivered. Also might be a chance for some of the countries still flying those airframes to get some parts as the refurb work was going on. Oh, well have a nice weekend.

28 posted on 06/14/2013 12:24:03 PM PDT by thinkthenpost
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To: Little Ray
$20 million apiece? For those?
Hell, A-10s only cost $16.3 million in current dollars.
This is a crooked deal. I wonder where the rest of money is going?

Remember, these are for Al-Qaeda

29 posted on 06/14/2013 12:31:07 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: Spktyr
See post 23/24. Embraer showed up with a plane, Beechcraft showed up with promises

Beech is pretty good at promises. Have flown Barons, King Airs, Queen Airs and Dukes.

Fabulous aircraft. Wish I'd bought a Baron instead of a 310.

Rather my tax money go to Americans in Kansas and East Hartford. They'll do just fine, thanks.

30 posted on 06/14/2013 12:33:05 PM PDT by Regulator
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To: UriĀ’el-2012

If I was Al Qaeda, I’d still be outraged. For $400 million, I’d want at least a hundred of the darn things; more like 200.
But, with a little luck, most of those planes will quickly be wrecks from incompetent maintenance or piloting.


31 posted on 06/14/2013 12:34:04 PM PDT by Little Ray (How did I end up in this hand-basket, and why is it gettingthe so hot?)
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To: Spktyr
Facts are the enemy of "truth".
32 posted on 06/14/2013 12:44:05 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro can't pass E-verify)
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To: Regulator

Yeah, but again, the rules of the deal were ‘you must have an actual airplane that does not require any development.’

Beechcraft didn’t have an airplane. They had plans and promises and a planned dev program. Which is nice and all, but you have to admit that most aircraft dev programs go over budget and over schedule and this was something the contracting office didn’t want. Not to mention the time it would have taken.


33 posted on 06/14/2013 12:45:34 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Little Ray

We can’t make A-10s any more. The tooling was destroyed.


34 posted on 06/14/2013 12:46:27 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

Beech’s proposal was not for box-stock AT-6s. It was for a new AT-6 variant that does not yet exist.


35 posted on 06/14/2013 12:48:05 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

Correction to my last post. It wasn’t for a box stock T-6. It’s the AT-6 that doesn’t exist in production form yet.

http://breakingdefense.com/2013/03/08/beechcraft-protests-super-tucano-las-award-kansas-delegation-on/

“We don’t know those risk ratings, but the Beechcraft company just emerged from bankruptcy, and the AT-6 aircraft is still in prototype: While Beechcraft has built thousands of T-6 trainers for the US and its allies, the specific variant on offer — the armed ground-attack version, the AT-6 — is significantly different and not entirely proven.”

So, again - Embraer showed up with a proven plane they’ve been making and selling for years. Beechcraft showed up with some nice pictures and a promise instead of what the contract letters demanded - production aircraft.


36 posted on 06/14/2013 12:52:25 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Spktyr

That doesn’t mean Super Tucanos should cost $20 million per unit.


37 posted on 06/14/2013 12:55:55 PM PDT by Little Ray (How did I end up in this hand-basket, and why is it gettingthe so hot?)
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To: Little Ray

I didn’t say anything about that. :P

The thing is, only one outfit showed up with a proposal that met *all* the rules set forth ahead of time. Their price is their price. I would love to see Beech get the contract as well, because that would be a big boost for them. But if they can’t follow the rules, that’s too bad.

Also, the $427 mil of the contract isn’t just for the airplane. It’s also for training, parts and other support, rendered on site in Afghanistan. To put that in perspective, the Beech projection for their plane that does not exist in production form yet was $14.85 mil a copy when the T-6 it’ll be based on cost roughly $6 mil per copy.

It should also be noted that when Beechcraft bid the JPATS competition and got the contract for the T-6, they pulled a similar gag. They promised the planes for $3.9 million despite only having prototypes. The final delivery cost ended up being $6 mil, an 80% or so increase.


38 posted on 06/14/2013 1:03:48 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Little Ray

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beechcraft_T-6_Texan_II

The T-6 is a development of the Pilatus PC-9, modified significantly by Beechcraft in order to enter the Joint Primary Aircraft Training System (JPATS) competition in the 1990s.[1] A similar arrangement between Pilatus and British Aerospace had also been in place for a Royal Air Force competition in the 1980s, although this competition selected the Short Tucano. The aircraft was designated under the 1962 United States Tri-Service aircraft designation system and named for the decades-earlier T-6 Texan.

The Beechcraft brand has since been purchased from Raytheon by Onex Corporation, a Canadian “private equity fund” which retained the name Hawker Beechcraft.[2]

The JPATS competition winning design was based on a commercial off the shelf Pilatus PC-9, with minor modifications. Additional requirements and conflicts between the Air Force and the Navy resulted in delays, cost increases (from initial estimates of $3.9 to roughly $6 million per aircraft) and a completely new aircraft that is 22% or 1,100 lbs heavier than the Pilatus.[3]

On April 9, 2007 the U.S. Department of Defense released their Selected Acquisition Reports, which reported that the T-6 JPATS program was one of only eight programs cited for Congressional notification for 25–50% cost overrun over initial estimates, which is referred to as a “Nunn-McCurdy Breach” after the Nunn-McCurdy Amendment. It is unusual for a program so far into full rate production to experience significant enough cost overruns to trigger this Congressional notification.[4]


So, yeah. This is the second time Beechcraft has showed up with pretty pictures and promises.


39 posted on 06/14/2013 1:06:01 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Spktyr

Well, I could see the training of pilots and ground crews being a lot more expensive than the aircraft...


40 posted on 06/14/2013 1:07:43 PM PDT by Little Ray (How did I end up in this hand-basket, and why is it gettingthe so hot?)
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To: Spktyr
.....off the shelf aircraft ready for immediate purchase.>..

Send me the $20 mil. I'll have something ready by Monday.

Or at least by the time some worthy oriental gentleman is ready to try flying it.

41 posted on 06/14/2013 1:13:37 PM PDT by Kenny Bunk ("Obama" The Movie. Introducing Reggie Love as "Monica." .)
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To: Spktyr

I don’t care who gets the contract, I just don’t want to pay $20 million per unit, but the case is made that the unit is relatively cheap and the training is what is going going to cost. That I can understand.


42 posted on 06/14/2013 1:15:02 PM PDT by Little Ray (How did I end up in this hand-basket, and why is it gettingthe so hot?)
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To: Spktyr

A reasonable answer.

But one more time....

Brazil is run by an ex-terrorist guerrilla and she reflects the mindset of the people there.

We have no more business buying military equipment from this hostile foreign power then we would from The People’s Republic of China, a criminocracy that we unfortunately allow to sell crap here too.


43 posted on 06/15/2013 8:59:23 AM PDT by Regulator
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To: Spktyr

And while I’m on the subject, do a search on Dilma Roussef, daughter of one of the first Bulgarian Communists, who fled to Brazil to cause trouble in the Americas.

You want this freak to control USAF inventory?


44 posted on 06/15/2013 9:06:36 AM PDT by Regulator
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To: Regulator

I’m guessing you missed the part where they said that these planes are being bought for Afghanistan, not the USAF.


45 posted on 06/15/2013 2:42:40 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Spktyr
No, I saw that. But it really doesn't matter: the U.S. is paying for it, USAF is managing the deal, and in the end, it will be their inventory that will be sent to Afghanistan.

What are the details? Karzai ends up with the titles to the airplanes and the canopy keys?

Don't know, don't care. In the end, it's still a USAF deal.

Embraer sells lots of RJ's in the U.S. Bombardier and Embraer basically share the 50-90 seat market in the U.S., and admittedly they buy a lot of U.S. content for their aircraft: engines and avionics.

That's nice. But military aircraft? For a fight that they weren't a part of, and were not willing to support?

Not.

46 posted on 06/17/2013 12:36:00 AM PDT by Regulator
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To: Regulator

Thing is, while the US is paying for it, the USAF is only acting as a procurement agent. USAF personnel will not be using the aircraft.

Point is, those nutcases you were talking about in Brazil *won’t* be supplying critical (or even non-critical) materials to the USAF and won’t be in control of anything like that.


47 posted on 06/17/2013 1:00:11 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: paddles

Ha ha. that sounds about right!


48 posted on 06/19/2013 12:05:16 PM PDT by KMR
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To: buffaloguy

Yup. Thats what I keep hearing, too.


49 posted on 06/19/2013 12:05:51 PM PDT by KMR
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To: 0.E.O

Sometimes you get what you pay for... Tucano is a bigger plane. Thats why it costs more.


50 posted on 06/19/2013 12:06:11 PM PDT by KMR
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