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Syria Militants Massacre Christian Village Population
Syria Report ^ | 12 Jun 2013 5

Posted on 06/14/2013 11:50:58 PM PDT by Mount Athos

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To: Westbrook; Mount Athos
Westbrook -- evidently you misinterpreted what I said. I agree with you that Islam is evil

What I said was that an Eastern Orthodox (i.e. Russian) controlled Middle East is preferable to a Moslem one -- this was due to T's post slamming our Orthodox Christian brethren.

51 posted on 06/16/2013 6:27:48 AM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros>Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: butterdezillion

“I haven’t read all of “On the Jews and their Lies” by Martin Luther “

Uhuh. Thanks.


52 posted on 06/16/2013 7:45:07 AM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: butterdezillion

“Did I not tell you earlier that a Jew is such a noble, precious jewel that God and all the angels dance when he farts?”
—Martin Luther

>>scare quotes around “pastor”

Scare? LOL. Nah, its just a recognition that the LCMS’ Jackwagon has jumped the shark like all FALLIBLE and UNINSPIRED human religious concoctions.

What’s the “pastoral” retirement plan paying out these days?


53 posted on 06/16/2013 8:00:36 AM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: Cronos
[but a strong Orthodox control of the Middle East is anyday better than a Moslem controlled one...]

Governance that secures the freedom of the Individual ala a 1st Amendment prohibition against state-established temporal punishments or burthens being imposed upon the Individual's relationship with their Creator is anyday better than EITHER of those.



Don't you agree?
54 posted on 06/16/2013 8:23:06 AM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: TArcher

Give some context. I’d bet that he was saying this is what the Jews of his day were acting like - as if their blood line makes them hot stuff, before whom even the Lord would bow. Today we’d call it racism. Semitic supremacy, maybe.

The Lord said that it was not because Israel was so great that He chose them to be His people, but because of His own grace, and Luther, like the apostles, pointed out the error of anybody who based their hope on their own goodness rather than on the promise of the Lord Himself - be they Jews, Christians, philosophers, Muslims, or whatever. What Luther was willing to lay his life on the line for was the Biblical teaching that it is God’s grace alone which saves, and that His grace comes to us by God through His gift of faith in God and His Word and promises.

And you obviously don’t know much about Lutheranism if you imply that Lutherans believe in the infallibility of anything human. That’s why Luther got in trouble with the popes; he believed they were fallible and that the Word which God preserved over thousands of years was to be trusted above the teachings of any one man. The Bible is full of the fallenness of man, including the very apostles who were witnesses of Christ’s life, death, resurrection, and ascension. As Paul wrote, we have this treasure in earthen pots to show that the transcendent power comes from God, not from us. Our trust is not in man, but in the Lord. That’s why Luther was disgusted by the arrogance of the Jews in his day who placed their trust in their own greatness or the greatness of their blood line/race/culture. And there have always been Christians who have done the same thing. That’s why Luther was wary of pietism as well. Anything that places hope in something other than the redemptive work of Jesus Christ and in the promises of God is a waste of time at best. We count everything as loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing our Lord and becoming like Him in His death so that we also rise with Him in His resurrection. I could give you Scripture after Scripture, from both Old and New Testaments, saying that our hope is in the Lord and His redemption of us in spite of our fallenness.

But Scripture is your gripe, isn’t it? You don’t trust Scripture. I wonder why that is.

In any event, you have not shown racism against Semites on the part of Luther or of Lutherans - but rather the objections to a theology or attitude held by some Jews as well as some non-Jews.

What you are showing is your own apparent bitterness. I’m sad about that. Man is fallen and fallible. Man’s speaking and hearing can both be messed up. What, then, do you put your hope in? Where’s the rescue? Anything that comes into your mind could just be your own fallenness speaking. Who will rescue you from your own fallenness?


55 posted on 06/16/2013 10:22:19 AM PDT by butterdezillion (,)
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To: TArcher

Congratulations. You just supported the natural conclusion to Martin Luther’s doctrine of the left-hand and right-hand kingdoms.


56 posted on 06/16/2013 10:25:11 AM PDT by butterdezillion (,)
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To: butterdezillion

I trust scripture just fine. Wolves in the pulpet, not so much.


57 posted on 06/16/2013 1:34:52 PM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: butterdezillion
>>Who will rescue you from your own fallenness?



Where in the curriculum is the text in question likewise exposed?
58 posted on 06/16/2013 1:45:50 PM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: butterdezillion

>>Give some context.

” What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom...”
—Martin Luther
http://www.google.com/search?q=on+the+jews+and+their+lies


59 posted on 06/16/2013 1:56:10 PM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: butterdezillion

Well, I don’t know if they’re Left or Right handed — but I think the LIFERs perched on the temple steps in Seward and St. Louis got some s’plainin’ to do.


60 posted on 06/16/2013 1:58:57 PM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: butterdezillion

“In any event, you have not shown racism against Semites on the part of Luther “

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22First%2C+to+set+fire+to+their+synagogues+or+schools+and+to+bury+and+cover+with+dirt+whatever+will+not+burn%2C%22&btnG=Search&hl=en&biw=&bih=&gbv=1

“And Ye Shall Know the Truth and the Truth Shall Make You Free”


61 posted on 06/16/2013 2:10:07 PM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: TArcher

What wolves in the pulpit? I have no idea what you’re talking about. You’re sending me on wild goosechases, seemingly in an effort to make it seem like Lutherans are anti-semites. Why are you doing this? It almost seems like you’re trying to distract from the issue at hand, which is that the Islamists are butchering Christians all over the place. There is anti-semitism in the world but I have never known a Lutheran who was anti-semitic, although not one of them would agree with the Jews’ rejection of salvation through Jesus Christ.


62 posted on 06/16/2013 2:40:31 PM PDT by butterdezillion (,)
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To: butterdezillion

>>I have no idea what you’re talking about.

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22First%2C+to+set+fire+to+their+synagogues+or+schools+and+to+bury+and+cover+with+dirt+whatever+will+not+burn%2C%22&btnG=Search&hl=en&biw=&bih=&gbv=1

What does this mean?


63 posted on 06/16/2013 2:43:15 PM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: butterdezillion

>>the Islamists are butchering Christians

http://www.google.com/search?q=Nazism+and+Islam+site%3Awww.freerepublic.com&btnG=Search&hl=en&biw=&bih=&gbv=1

Meet the New ÜberBa’al, same as the Old ÜberBa’al
—The Who?


64 posted on 06/16/2013 3:10:28 PM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: butterdezillion

He wouldn’t give the requested context for the quote he cited, so I have been reading the entire text. The quote he gave was on page 61 at http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/JewsAndTheirLies.pdf . Reading that, you can see that my explanation was correct. He was saying that the Jews were acting as if the Lord and the angels must worship them and their farts, because they believe they have the right to undo the Word of God and call Him a liar.

So far what I have seen is refutation of the claims of the Jews of Luther’s day, although he also says that the Jews were practicing usury, getting rich off of the work of others, twisting words to slander Christians, etc. Whether that is anti-semitism or whether it is true, I don’t know. It actually sounds a lot like those today who complain about the 47% who live off the government teat. And the refutation of the claims sounds a lot like the way folks here don’t agree with taqiyya (Muslim lying for the cause), the slaughter of infidels, or violent jihad.


65 posted on 06/16/2013 5:13:53 PM PDT by butterdezillion (,)
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To: TArcher

I have read the entire text at http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/JewsAndTheirLies.pdf and did not see that in there. Where are you finding that?

I Googled that entire quote that you gave so that I could see if anybody cited a reference page or showed it in context. There are a lot of sites claiming that Luther said that in this writing, but nobody gave full context or referenced pages or links, and now I know why, because (unless the pdf I just read is not complete) that quote is not in there. The other quotes I found that were supposedly cited from this writing of Luther are snippets cobbled together out of context - the exact same kind of deception and lies that Luther accused the Jews of his day of doing.

In the last page of that PDF Luther is addressing the Jews’ claims that they are being held captive by the Christians. Luther says they are free to go, are not being held captive by anybody, and that he wishes they could be in Jerusalem. He says that Christians are perhaps enabling them in their wrong-doing by not enacting justice for the crimes and by letting them mooch off of them. It sounds very much like what you hear around here about the welfare state and about the corrupt government. I have never thought of folks here as being “racist” against government because they hate the corruption of government. I have never accused anybody here of trying to burn down mosques because they say that Mohammed took an 8-year-old wife and his followers do the same. In this writing Luther says the Jews were doing the same thing that the papists, Muslims, some other Christians, Isreal of the Bible, etc have done. If he is bigoted against Jews by hating what they are doing then he was a bigot against his own self also, since he calls himself a worm, etc. His point is that we are all sinners with nothing to boast about before the Lord, and he is very clearly tired of the lies and deceptions. Really ironic that those who call Luther anti-semitic have apparently fabricated quotes from him.


66 posted on 06/16/2013 6:11:13 PM PDT by butterdezillion (,)
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To: TArcher

The left-hand kingdom is the earthly kingdom. It deals with justice. The right-hand kingdom is God’s Kingdom; only there can a person find real life. Luther said the two are separate.

I don’t know what LIFERs you’re talking about, and there is no temple in Seward.

To be quite frank I am tired of trying to follow your cryptic comments that never come right out and say anything. I’ve spent most of the afternoon scouring the cited writing of Luther, trying to find quotes that aren’t there, and I’m not going to waste any more time on this.

To believe that a people is deceived - which is the ultimate conclusion that Luther reached regarding the Jews, in that writing - is not the same thing as being “racist” against them. I believe that most Americans, including my own siblings and parents, are deceived, and have said so openly on this board - but I love them with all my heart and they love me with all their hearts. Jesus Christ called the Jewish leaders of His day “white-washed tombs”. Why would He who is perfect love say something like that? Because it is the truth and they needed a swift kick in the pants - to try to wake them from their sleep while salvation was still available to them. Any parent who has ever had to rebuke a child understands this.


67 posted on 06/16/2013 6:22:38 PM PDT by butterdezillion (,)
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To: butterdezillion

>>Where are you finding that?

Same place you are.

Certainly NOT anywhere in the LCMS curriculum.

Why is that this particular work of Luther’s has been left for blind sided discovery by the unsuspecting instead of being confronted and disarmed?

The network of schools and teachers the LCMS formerly had at its disposal certainly would’ve been an ideal instrument for doing so.

Didn’t the LCMS know about it?


68 posted on 06/16/2013 6:34:57 PM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: butterdezillion
Your link doesn't work.
Here's one that does:

Chapter 11

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly_and I myself was unaware of it_will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know....

http://www.colchestercollection.com/titles/chunk/O/on-the-jews/chapter11.html

 
 I found several other inconsistent versions - for example look at this section:
[they have been blood thirsty bloodhounds and murderers of all Christendom for more than fourteen hundred years in their intentions, and would undoubtedly prefer to be such with their deeds. Thus they have been accused of poisoning water and wells, of kidnaping children, of piercing them through with an awl, of hacking them in pieces, and in that way secretly cooling their wrath with the blood of Christians, for all of which they have often been condemned to death by fire.]
 
[For these Jews are much holier than were those in the Babylonian captivity, who did not curse, who did not secretly shed the blood of children, nor poison the water, but who rather as Jeremiah had instructed them [Jer. 29:7] prayed for their captors, the Babylonians. The reason is that they were not as holy as the present-day Jews, nor did they have such smart rabbis as the present-day Jews have; for Jeremiah, Daniel, and Ezekiel were big fools to teach this. They would, I suppose, be torn to shreds by the teeth of today's Jews.]
http://www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres9/Luthereng.pdf#page=1&zoom=auto,0,89
 
Another version supposedly translates (or mistranslates) the German thus:
[In history, therefore, they are often accused of poisoning wells, stealing children and mutilating them; as in Trent, Weiszensee, etc. Of course, they deny this. Be it so or not, however, I know full well that the full, ready will is not lacking
with them if they could only transform it into deeds, in secret or openly. Know this for a certainty and aut accordingly]
 
Shed the blood of Children? Awls? Hacking to pieces?  Poisoning the water?
 
Oh dear. Well that's all very disturbing. 
 
Q1:  Is there historical evidence that corroborates Luther's (alleged) assertion the Jews did those things?
 
["not as holy as the present-day Jews"]
Was that "holy" religious nature manufactured by humans -- or was it manufactured by their Creator?
 
 
[the unjust God lets such holy people curse (I wanted to say "pray") so vehemently in vain against our Messiah
and all Christians. He does not care to see or have anything to do either with them or with their pious conduct, which is so thickly, thickly, heavily, heavily coated with the blood of the Messiah and his Christians.]
http://www.colchestercollection.com/titles/pdf/O/on-the-jews.pdf  (page 129)
 
 
 
Hmmm.  Unjust God?  Coated with the blood? 

Hard to believe Luther wrote that ---  Especially given that the cross being heavily coated with the blameless blood of the Lamb/Messiah was SORT OF THE WHOLE SACRIFICIAL CRUX upon which the resurrection was hung.

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/JewsAndTheirLies.pdf
http://www.colchestercollection.com/titles/pdf/O/on-the-jews.pdf
http://www.resist.com/Instauration/OtherPubs-20120723/TheJewsAndTheirLies-Luther.pdf
http://www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres9/Luthereng.pdf
 
Which one is reliable?

Q2:  Is the self-evident fact that NO mention of, NOR any authoritative reference translation of, the work in question can be found at...
 
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=%22Jews+and+their+lies%22+site%3Awww.lcms.org&btnG=Google+Search&gbv=1
 
...an ERROR?

 

69 posted on 06/16/2013 8:07:41 PM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: butterdezillion
>>I don’t know what LIFERs you’re talking about,
It's an acronym.  Look it up.
>>and there is no temple in Seward.
Oh, it calls itself a University these days.
 
What's the current retirement payout for a tenured L.I.F.E.R.?

70 posted on 06/16/2013 8:28:49 PM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: TArcher

I’m not interested in playing whack-a-mole with you. You’ve tried to imply that Luther was anti-semitic, that Lutherans are anti-semitic, and that Lutheran pastors like my husband are “wolves” in the pulpit - all based on texts that may or may not be genuine (you tell me after I spent most of the afternoon reading the entire text at fordham.edu). All of this as a distraction from the issue of the Syrian Free Army slaughtering Christians. This is a stupid game and I’m not going to play. I don’t agree with the theology of those who deny Christ. But I will serve their well-being as best I can because their lives are precious to their Creator. You can go pick a fight with somebody else.


71 posted on 06/16/2013 9:49:18 PM PDT by butterdezillion (,)
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To: butterdezillion
What does this...
"This page can't be displayed"
... mean?
 
That's the result for the link you posted:
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/JewsAndTheirLies.pdf.

Meanwhile here's an interesting alleged translation that's dated 1948:



 http://www.resist.com/Instauration/OtherPubs-20120723/TheJewsAndTheirLies-Luther.pdf

 


1948 being 11 years before the one you linked that's only available in Google Cache - was allegedly translated by Martin H. Bertram and published by Concordia in 1959.

The one you linked on a subject that's, curiously, NOT even mentioned on the LCMS Website:

So, again "What does this mean?" -- which version is the LIE and why hasn't the LCMS put ANY, let alone "the best possible" construction on the subject?

72 posted on 06/16/2013 9:50:54 PM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: butterdezillion; Westbrook

>>all based on texts that may or may not be genuine

The texts that have evidently existed at least since 1948; texts and a subject that the LCMS has evidently chosen to ignore? Those texts?

>>I’m not interested in playing whack-a-mole with you.

Well then put the Ordained “head” of the household on the keyboard - and let him wear the pants... assuming it hasn’t been neutered.


73 posted on 06/16/2013 10:00:16 PM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: butterdezillion

“All of this as a distraction from the issue of the Syrian Free Army slaughtering Christians.”

Nah, all of this as a question of whether or not some Nazi “Wolves” and their Muslim pals...

http://www.google.com/search?q=Nazism+and+Islam+site%3Awww.freerepublic.com&btnG=Search&hl=en&biw=&bih=&gbv=1

...are cooking up another ERRANT batch of instigated historical, sacrificial, golden bovine excrement.

But we won't find anything on THAT subject in the LCMS' curriculum either, will we.


74 posted on 06/16/2013 10:17:41 PM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: butterdezillion

Well, evidently Y(LCMS)MMV:

"In November 1998, on the 60th anniversary of Kristallnacht, the Lutheran Church of Bavaria issued a statement: "It is imperative for the Lutheran Church, which knows itself to be indebted to the work and tradition of Martin Luther, to take seriously also his anti-Jewish utterances, to acknowledge their theological function, and to reflect on their consequences. It has to distance itself from every [expression of] anti-Judaism in Lutheran theology."[9]"


9^ "Christians and Jews: A Declaration of the Lutheran Church of Bavaria", November 24, 1998, also printed in Freiburger Rundbrief, 6:3 (1999), pp.191-197. For other statements from Lutheran bodies, see:

 

Hmm.  Bavaria?  Where is that?  Was it a little closer to the action back circa 1933 than Nebraska circa 2013?  Yep.

75 posted on 06/16/2013 10:32:57 PM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: TArcher

in the case of Moslems, no. What you quote is for civilised religions, not murderous philosophies like Islam


76 posted on 06/17/2013 5:13:31 AM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros>Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: Cronos

>>in the case of Moslems, no

Islam is nothing but a state-established system of temporal punishments and burthens — precisely NOT what Jefferson was advocating ala the Virginia Act for the Establishment of Religious Freedom and its embodiment in the 1st Amendment.

Which is exactly what the Islamofascists HATE about America.


77 posted on 06/17/2013 5:05:19 PM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: Nowhere Man

>>>>Strange world, ain’t it? I’m in the same boat as you. As bad as these dictators like Assad, Saddam Hussein, Kadaffy, etc., were, at least religious minorities were fairly protected under them although I admit the exception was with the Kurds under Saddam. Still, these dictators were cut from a different cloth than the mooselimb brotherhood rebels, they were more secular, basically 1950’s era Pan-Arab socialists. Assad is the lesser evil here.<<<<

To be honest, Kurds weren’t that docile. They are dominated by communists (Kurd worker’s party) who widely used terror to reach their goal of carving pieces of Iraqi and Turkish territory into their separatist state. Turkey was as brutal to contain them as Saddam, and it still defend itself in a brutal way but none of it is reported by the press.

IMHO, alleged Saddam’s brutality against the Kurds is in class of half-truths used to justify ‘humanitarian’ NATO bombing of Serbia.


78 posted on 06/19/2013 4:26:17 AM PDT by cunning_fish
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