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Forget The F-22 And F-35, Russia's New Su-35 Fighter Jet Blows Them Away
Business Insider ^ | 06/18/2013 | David Cenciotti

Posted on 06/18/2013 1:50:57 PM PDT by Carbonsteel

The Su-35 (NATO designation Flanker E), Russia’s latest version of the famous super-maneuverable multirole fighter jet has demonstrated its stunning capabilities during the first day of the 50th Paris Air Show at Le Bourget.

During its display, the 4++ generation aircraft has showcased some almost impossible manoeuvres, demonstrating unbelievable low-speed handling authority.

(Excerpt) Read more at businessinsider.com ...


TOPICS: Government; News/Current Events; Russia; Your Opinion/Questions
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1 posted on 06/18/2013 1:50:57 PM PDT by Carbonsteel
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To: Carbonsteel

It falls in line with what this present government wants... a permanent loss of our military edge. With homos in the ranks and women in combat roles, along with weapons inferiority... they’re moving right along toward their goal.


2 posted on 06/18/2013 1:53:22 PM PDT by ScottinVA ( Liberal is to patriotism as Kermit Gosnell is to neonatal care.)
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To: Carbonsteel

Lol. Just check out the comments at the link. Summary: nice for air shows.


3 posted on 06/18/2013 1:54:04 PM PDT by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
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To: Carbonsteel

BS. I’d venture that an experience Eagle driver could take him.


4 posted on 06/18/2013 1:55:31 PM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: Carbonsteel
Forget The F-22 And F-35, Russia's New Su-35 Fighter Jet Blows Them Away

0bama's "new flexibility" most likely included providing specs and probably technical assistance to his comrades in russia.

5 posted on 06/18/2013 1:55:46 PM PDT by The Sons of Liberty (Jesus, Please Save America!)
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To: piytar

“Summary: nice for air shows.”

Correct. Speed and range/TOT win jet modern dog fights.

Manuevarbility is nice, and damn handy, but going faster than the other guy (dive, straight, climb), is about 75%.


6 posted on 06/18/2013 1:56:34 PM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: Carbonsteel

Won’t mean crap against a swarm of unmanned attack drones.


7 posted on 06/18/2013 1:57:18 PM PDT by RockyMtnMan
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To: Carbonsteel

I have to allow that the moves it can pull in a tight hairball are extremely impressive, but is it STEALTHY?

Hmm....

If you can see it, you can kill it.

And I do love it’s looks —totally gorgeous.


8 posted on 06/18/2013 1:58:01 PM PDT by gaijin
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To: Carbonsteel
Rules are rules, sorry....

My fave cammo scheme for that one.

9 posted on 06/18/2013 2:00:07 PM PDT by gaijin
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To: Carbonsteel

Cute plane. But completely useless if it gets picked up on radar first and can’t fire.


10 posted on 06/18/2013 2:00:08 PM PDT by miliantnutcase
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To: RockyMtnMan

Using proper jargon for today, wouldn’t that be better stated using “...unmanned ASSAULT drones?”


11 posted on 06/18/2013 2:01:33 PM PDT by bigfootbob
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To: RockyMtnMan

... that suddenly stop following your commands and attack your guys.

yea, you’re right. feel so much safer


12 posted on 06/18/2013 2:02:00 PM PDT by sten (fighting tyranny never goes out of style)
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To: Carbonsteel
I didn't go look at the comments, but someone else already posted what I thought: it's great for an airshow. But, the days of close-in aircraft dog-fights are long gone.

Today, aircraft are vulnerable long before they are in visual range. If you see an F-22, you would have already been dead if the pilot thought you were a threat.

Unless the Su-35 pilot can detect an incoming Sidewinder or AMRAAM and out-maneuver it, it's just an expensive showpiece.

Get back to me when it's not detectable by radar and can cruise at supersonic speed.

13 posted on 06/18/2013 2:03:19 PM PDT by justlurking (tagline removed, as demanded by Admin Moderator)
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The Rooskies seemingly build aircraft crudely, but tough as nails (gravel or rough runways...). I wonder if this is in the same mold?


14 posted on 06/18/2013 2:03:28 PM PDT by llevrok (We are in a new Cold War. At home.)
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I see Cenciotti keeps exposing the fact that he is no expert.


15 posted on 06/18/2013 2:04:13 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro can't pass E-verify)
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To: bigfootbob
Using proper jargon for today, wouldn’t that be better stated using “...unmanned ASSAULT drones?”

Undocumented pilots?

16 posted on 06/18/2013 2:04:32 PM PDT by llevrok (We are in a new Cold War. At home.)
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To: llevrok

You get it!


17 posted on 06/18/2013 2:07:21 PM PDT by bigfootbob
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To: Jewbacca

Also 4+ gen without stealth? Sorry, that’s NOT 4+ gen.


18 posted on 06/18/2013 2:08:32 PM PDT by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
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To: justlurking
But, the days of close-in aircraft dog-fights are long gone.

Depends on what the ROEs are. We've heard your argument before which is why the Phantom II was fielded without a gun.

19 posted on 06/18/2013 2:10:36 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro can't pass E-verify)
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To: Carbonsteel

Sorry, but aerial battles are not fought at less than 200 mph.


20 posted on 06/18/2013 2:10:51 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Inside every liberal and WOD defender is a totalitarian screaming to get out.)
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To: justlurking

If you tried most of those slow speed maneuvers at full speed or close to it, you bust that sucker up wouldn’t you.

So what’s the true value of some of that. Not much.

As for maneuvering to avoid a Sidewinder, good luck with that.


21 posted on 06/18/2013 2:13:41 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Speaker John Boehner (R) no (D) no (R)... has more waffles than IHOP.)
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To: justlurking
lol...they thought the same thing during Vietnam...didn't even put guns on our best fighter the F4...had to hang pods out in airstream to compensate and loose some of the muscle...

Stealth is history repeating itself.

22 posted on 06/18/2013 2:13:53 PM PDT by rightwingextremist1776
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To: A.A. Cunningham
We've heard your argument before which is why the Phantom II was fielded without a gun.

The F-4 was a long time ago. The only close-in dogfights that occurred in Iraq were between an A-10 and a helicopter.

23 posted on 06/18/2013 2:14:06 PM PDT by justlurking (tagline removed, as demanded by Admin Moderator)
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To: rightwingextremist1776

That was 40 years ago, With modern FLIR and seismic detectors it would be over in a year or less.


24 posted on 06/18/2013 2:18:57 PM PDT by omega4179
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To: sten

The next generation of drones can perform maneuvers that would kill a pilot. If the remote pilot/operator felt it was warranted he could use the entire drone as a weapon. Autonomous control systems are getting scary good at not needing human interaction.

You’d just paint a box on the screen and tell the drone(s) to kill anything that enters the box.


25 posted on 06/18/2013 2:20:27 PM PDT by RockyMtnMan
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To: Carbonsteel

Very beautiful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3h2PIo0tt0&feature=player_embedded

I remember the days when America was out in front and important. I remember when we were #1 in all things. Those days were before Michelle Obama became proud of our country, for the first time in her life. Those days were back when America actually had a Space program and we reached for the stars. Those were the days before homosexuals actually married each other and boy scouts weren’t faggots. Those were the days when we actually had a real president, one that loved our country and worked to bring us together. Those were they days when we actually had a Constitution.

So, should I learn to speak Spanish or Russian?


26 posted on 06/18/2013 2:20:36 PM PDT by Gator113 ( ~just keep livin~ I drink good wine, listen to good music and dream good dreams.)
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To: omega4179
We are talking about tactics not airframe...tactics never change, only how you apply them. Tactical need for guns will always be a part of aerial combat...as proven 40 years ago.
27 posted on 06/18/2013 2:22:10 PM PDT by rightwingextremist1776
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To: rightwingextremist1776
lol...they thought the same thing during Vietnam...didn't even put guns on our best fighter the F4...had to hang pods out in airstream to compensate and loose some of the muscle... Stealth is history repeating itself.

I believe ROE's in Vietnam required visual identification:

The F-4's biggest weakness, as it was initially designed, was its lack of an internal cannon. For a brief period, doctrine held that turning combat would be impossible at supersonic speeds and little effort was made to teach pilots air combat maneuvering. In reality, engagements quickly became subsonic, as pilots would slow down in an effort to get behind their adversaries. Furthermore, the relatively new heat-seeking and radar-guided missiles at the time were frequently reported as unreliable and pilots had to use multiple shots (also known as ripple-firing), just to hit one enemy fighter. To compound the problem, rules of engagement in Vietnam precluded long-range missile attacks in most instances, as visual identification was normally required. Many pilots found themselves on the tail of an enemy aircraft but too close to fire short-range Falcons or Sidewinders. Although by 1965 USAF F-4Cs began carrying SUU-16 external gunpods containing a 20 mm (.79 in) M61 Vulcan Gatling cannon, USAF cockpits were not equipped with lead-computing gunsights until the introduction of the SUU-23, virtually assuring a miss in a maneuvering fight. Some Marine Corps aircraft carried two pods for strafing. In addition to the loss of performance due to drag, combat showed the externally mounted cannon to be inaccurate unless frequently boresighted, yet far more cost-effective than missiles. The lack of a cannon was finally addressed by adding an internally mounted 20 mm (.79 in) M61 Vulcan on the F-4E.[39]
LBJ was a lousy C-in-C.
28 posted on 06/18/2013 2:22:26 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Carbonsteel

Can Ivan afford to fly these babies? He’s had some real difficulty getting his pilots flying time.

Of course the Zero has effectively grounded our Air Force too. That’s parity dumb everyone down.


29 posted on 06/18/2013 2:27:17 PM PDT by ImJustAnotherOkie (zerogottago)
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To: Gator113

Mandarin.

(not really joking)


30 posted on 06/18/2013 2:27:46 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network
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To: ScottinVA

Exactly


31 posted on 06/18/2013 2:28:08 PM PDT by Eagles6 (Valley Forge Redux)
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To: RockyMtnMan

Drones in a dogfights? I dunno...


32 posted on 06/18/2013 2:30:52 PM PDT by equaviator (There's nothing like the universe to bring you down to earth.)
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To: justlurking
The only close-in dogfights that occurred in Iraq were between an A-10 and a helicopter.

Incorrect.

You're still governed by ROEs which you conveniently chose not to address.

33 posted on 06/18/2013 2:30:56 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro can't pass E-verify)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

I’ve considered that too, but it seems like a very difficult language to learn.


34 posted on 06/18/2013 2:32:59 PM PDT by Gator113 ( ~just keep livin~ I drink good wine, listen to good music and dream good dreams.)
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To: A.A. Cunningham
You're still governed by ROEs which you conveniently chose not to address.

If ROE's universally require visual ID, it seems to me we're better off building a bunch of upgraded F-15's.

35 posted on 06/18/2013 2:33:02 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Jewbacca

And net-centric capabilities.

F-22 is a generation ahead.


36 posted on 06/18/2013 2:33:41 PM PDT by Hulka
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To: A.A. Cunningham

“We’ve heard your argument before which is why the Phantom II was fielded without a gun.”

The difference is the change in reliability of missiles over the last 60 years. The AIM-9 was pretty decent in the early 80s, when I was a WSO in F-4s, but the reliability now is much better. So is the weapons envelope, and so is the reliability of radar missiles.

In a modern dogfight, trying to go for guns is a good way of dying...


37 posted on 06/18/2013 2:38:35 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (Liberals are like locusts...)
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To: justlurking
“. . .posted what I thought: it's great for an airshow. But, the days of close-in aircraft dog-fights are long gone.”

The F-22 has an internal gun that ‘pops’ out when the pilot pulls the trigger.

Why? Because we will never make the mistake again by designing a fighter without a gun (F-4).

Most A/A engagements will be pre-merge and the close-in phone-booth knife-fight will likely be very rare, but it is a capability we must have (and do).

BVR ROE can be restrictive and the politico's (Obama) would place restrictions where BVR shots can't be taken. And, there are times a friendly might be flying with less that capable EID, and that would require some sort of visual.

We have tactics for that.

Gun kills will happen.

38 posted on 06/18/2013 2:39:13 PM PDT by Hulka
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To: Gator113

The real problem with our making out with Communist China in my opinion, is the very radical differences between the Chinese way of thinking and the American way of thinking.

China is mono-ethnic.

It has an economy which absorbs foreign technology, in a way which absorbs the technology itself. It is very much oriented toward always advancing technologically.

We on the other hand are all about “sharing”.

That was ok for a while. But now China is bigger than America.

That is to say, China EXPORTS more than America.

We continue to operate like we’re the biggest guy on the block, and nobody really pays attention to the fact China has already passed us.

China has an aggressive, race-based system designed to overtake other countries.

It did not have to be this way, but we have developed China into a threat.

It is time to begin behaving that way.

We cannot continue to send industries there.

That has already gone on far too long.


39 posted on 06/18/2013 2:40:26 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network
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To: ScottinVA

geez...the 22 and 35 are in full operation and when was the last time a Russian plane was in combat?


40 posted on 06/18/2013 2:44:11 PM PDT by q_an_a (the more laws the less justice)
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To: gaijin

I actually like the blue/gray splinter myself.


41 posted on 06/18/2013 2:44:49 PM PDT by 2CAVTrooper (Slaving away so obama supporting deadbeats can play)
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To: rightwingextremist1776

“lol...they thought the same thing during Vietnam...didn’t even put guns on our best fighter the F4...had to hang pods out in airstream to compensate and loose some of the muscle...
Stealth is history repeating itself.”

If stealth is history repeating itself, then why does the F-22 have a gun, and why do their pilots train to dogfight with said gun?


42 posted on 06/18/2013 2:50:24 PM PDT by 2CAVTrooper (Slaving away so obama supporting deadbeats can play)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

I couldn’t agree with you more, but I sure don’t see us turning around any time soon.


43 posted on 06/18/2013 2:51:45 PM PDT by Gator113 ( ~just keep livin~ I drink good wine, listen to good music and dream good dreams.)
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To: ScottinVA
It falls in line with what this present government wants... a permanent loss of our military edge. With homos in the ranks and women in combat roles, along with weapons inferiority... they’re moving right along toward their goal.

Check, check, check, and Check !

44 posted on 06/18/2013 2:51:58 PM PDT by timestax
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To: Carbonsteel

The demo plane is sort of like a pretty model strutting the runway.

To be of any value, the model must also be able to be a great lover, have kids, clean the house, cook, hunt, and raise the kids to be wise and productive.

Speed, weapons capacity, sensors, stealth, maintainability, are all equally important for a fighter plane.

Notice also in the video that the demo plane is dumping tons of fuel into the engines in order to keep up thrust for all of the cute maneuvers.


45 posted on 06/18/2013 2:59:34 PM PDT by lurk
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To: justlurking

“The only close-in dogfights that occurred in Iraq were between an A-10 and a helicopter.”

Not entirely correct. There were a few post-merge kills.


46 posted on 06/18/2013 2:59:50 PM PDT by Hulka
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To: Hulka

That’s more for a ground-support role, really.

I work for an Israeli defense contractor and train US pilots on certain equipment (heads up displays and certain ground targeting equipment).

All that is cool and useful, but air-to-air, it’s actually pretty simple if your mission (like a Russian mission would be) is to “kill everythng in the air.”

To me, it seems only the West gives a hoot about not shooting the wrong thing.


47 posted on 06/18/2013 2:59:56 PM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: ImJustAnotherOkie

thye most certainly can . I had to study Russian tactics and weapons and Russia in the military when I was up in the Arctic with NATO deployments and they can afford it and they now have massive oil and gas fields.
The days of poor Russia are over


48 posted on 06/18/2013 3:01:28 PM PDT by manc (Marriage =1 man + 1 woman,when they say marriage equality then they should support polygamy)
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To: q_an_a

“geez...the 22 and 35 are in full operation and when was the last time a Russian plane was in combat?”

An actual Soviet Air Force plane? Or a soviet built plane?

I know Soviet pilots flew in both Korea and Vietnam, they’ve probably flown “off the record” in some of the African “brush wars” over the past 30 years.

As far as the planes, the last outing of a Soviet outfitted airforce (Iraq) didn’t fare too well with most of them tucking tail and running, or being buried in the desert.


49 posted on 06/18/2013 3:01:52 PM PDT by 2CAVTrooper (Slaving away so obama supporting deadbeats can play)
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To: piytar

The Russians have almost given up on producing stealthy engines, it seems to me. (At least until GE sells it to them)

They can get the body down, but have been having a heck of a time with the exhaust, in particular.

Their attempts have resulted in very short engine life and really spectacular fires.

That said, I think they can create a plane that is stealthy from the target side vantage, right here and now.

Leaving downtown, however, is another matter.


50 posted on 06/18/2013 3:03:39 PM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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