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Lawyers Eye NSA Data as Treasure Trove for Evidence in Murder, Divorce Cases
nbcnews.com ^ | 6 20 2013 | Bob Sullivan

Posted on 06/20/2013 5:11:06 PM PDT by BarnacleCenturion

The National Security Agency has spent years demanding that companies turn over their data. Now, the spy agency finds the shoe is on the other foot. A defendant in a Florida murder trial says telephone records collected by the NSA as part of its surveillance programs hold evidence that would help prove his innocence, and his lawyer has demanded that prosecutors produce those records. On Wednesday, the federal government filed a motion saying it would refuse, citing national security. But experts say the novel legal argument could encourage other lawyers to fight for access to the newly disclosed NSA surveillance database.

...

The laws of evidence require that prosecutors turn over to the defense any records they have that might help prove a suspect's innocence.

"This opens up a Pandora's box," said Mark Rasch, former head of the Department of Justice Computer Crimes Unit, and now an independent consultant. “You will have situations where the phone companies no longer have the data, but the government does, and lawyers will try to get that data.”

(Excerpt) Read more at redtape.nbcnews.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: benghazi; fastandfurious; impeachnow; irs

1 posted on 06/20/2013 5:11:06 PM PDT by BarnacleCenturion
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To: BarnacleCenturion

The rule of law is in a free fall and has been for a long time.


2 posted on 06/20/2013 5:12:48 PM PDT by Christie at the beach
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To: BarnacleCenturion

Tar, feathers and many rails for the zero administration.


3 posted on 06/20/2013 5:13:09 PM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof, but they're true.)
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To: BarnacleCenturion

What’s good for the goose...


4 posted on 06/20/2013 5:13:47 PM PDT by Telepathic Intruder (The only thing the Left has learned from the failures of socialism is not to call it that)
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To: Christie at the beach
Lawyers Eye NSA Data as Treasure Trove for Evidence in Murder, Divorce Cases,

That didn't take long!

The rule of law is in a free fall and has been for a long time.

but the Rule of Mob is ascendant!

5 posted on 06/20/2013 5:15:59 PM PDT by schm0e ("we are in the midst of a coup.")
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To: Jet Jaguar; NorwegianViking; ExTexasRedhead; HollyB; FromLori; EricTheRed_VocalMinority; ...

The list, Ping

Let me know if you would like to be on or off the ping list

http://www.nachumlist.com/


6 posted on 06/20/2013 5:16:54 PM PDT by Nachum (The Obama "List" at www.nachumlist.com)
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To: BarnacleCenturion
"This opens up a Pandora's box," said Mark Rasch, former head of the Department of Justice Computer Crimes Unit, and now an independent consultant. “You will have situations where the phone companies no longer have the data, but the government does, and lawyers will try to get that data.”

Thanks, Obama. You've done wonders to jurisprudence, dumbass.

High-powered defense attorney: "You have evidence that will help my client."

Government: "Uh, it's classified."

High-powered defense attorney: "Bull-hockey! Hand it over!"


7 posted on 06/20/2013 5:17:38 PM PDT by COBOL2Java (I'm a christian, pro-life, pro-gun, Reaganite. The GOP hates me. Why should I vote for them?)
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To: BarnacleCenturion

Ok folks here it comes, can’t lie about getting dome strange. They got you cold.


8 posted on 06/20/2013 5:20:17 PM PDT by ImJustAnotherOkie (zerogottago)
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To: COBOL2Java

Especially if the meta data originated from the accused hardware!


9 posted on 06/20/2013 5:20:49 PM PDT by Steven Tyler
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To: BarnacleCenturion

I agree —the gummint bugged their trusting SUBJECTS, and now the gummint will be subjected to all this these demands and nagging.

I think it’s fair, and I hope it completely exhausts them.

They have many thousands of employees, and the data is our PROPERTY, since we paid for it.


10 posted on 06/20/2013 5:23:02 PM PDT by gaijin
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To: BarnacleCenturion
the federal government filed a motion saying it would refuse, citing national security.

It would not harm national security to release a complete record of who this alleged murderer called and when. If the government is going to collect the data, he is entitled to use the data in his defense.

Amendment VI: In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall . . . have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor . . .

11 posted on 06/20/2013 5:24:02 PM PDT by Pollster1 ("Shall not be infringed" is unambiguous.)
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To: BarnacleCenturion

Two cheers for the lawyers. If they can’t fix it, at least muck it up completely.


12 posted on 06/20/2013 5:29:37 PM PDT by Vince Ferrer
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To: Telepathic Intruder

Hey, clients can use NSA data to get proof that their lawyers gave inadequate counsel, cheated on their wives, or were in a conspiracy to get them the chair.

Let the games begin.


13 posted on 06/20/2013 5:34:28 PM PDT by MadMax, the Grinning Reaper
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To: BarnacleCenturion

Won’t hold up in a court of law. The opposing attorney will rightly claim that the evidence was illegally obtained by the government.


14 posted on 06/20/2013 5:36:40 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Inside every liberal and WOD defender is a totalitarian screaming to get out.)
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To: schm0e

Would these inquiries be good? If it slows down implementation of the system, good. If lawyers being denied access to data makes them turn against it, good. If innocent people get out due to data collection, good.


15 posted on 06/20/2013 5:41:08 PM PDT by tbw2
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To: tbw2

But the defense would be, “the data does not exist”.


16 posted on 06/20/2013 5:41:58 PM PDT by schm0e ("we are in the midst of a coup.")
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Won’t hold up in a court of law. The opposing attorney will rightly claim that the evidence was illegally obtained by the government.

Now that should be the definition of "irony".

17 posted on 06/20/2013 5:42:45 PM PDT by schm0e ("we are in the midst of a coup.")
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To: BarnacleCenturion

welcome news.

if it helps the search for justice.
especially in divorce matters.


18 posted on 06/20/2013 5:44:02 PM PDT by RockyTx
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To: Blood of Tyrants

The prosecution can’t use it in their case. Illegally obtained.

If the government claims “national security”, they will have to show why the defendant’s phone records compromise national security concerns.

If the phone records prove his guilt, he walks because the evidence was illegally obtained.


19 posted on 06/20/2013 5:45:25 PM PDT by Bryan24 (When in doubt, move to the right..........)
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To: BarnacleCenturion

The NSA is capturing phone calls, business records, internet searches, sites frequented,... heaven only knows what more.

Let’s just look at the phone call end of this. Folks can extrapolate out the rest on their own.

We have 316 million citizens

If those citizens make 2 calls a day on average, that works out to 227.5 billion calls per year. If the number of calls averages 6 calls per day, the number of calls per year increases to 682.6 billion calls per year.

Some folks may not make that many calls themselves, but others do and the average is probably more than we might think.

Out of even the low end 227.5 billion calls, the best the NSA can come up with is fifty saves, with the most rosy outcome the NSA could come up with.

227.5 billion calls, 50 saves.

That’s 0.000000021976090% efficiency.

Only a government troll could find that level of payoff, to be worth capturing 227.5 billion calls. Only a Third Reich fan-boy, could find collecting this much data on his fellow citizens to be the right thing to do.

I’d like to know how many of those ‘VAST’ 50 stopped terrorist attacks, couldn’t have been stopped with warrants and a traditional follow-through?

Any? 50, 40, 30, 20, 10,... even one?


20 posted on 06/20/2013 5:49:20 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Kennedy: Today I am a Berliner / Reagan: Gorbachev tear down this wall / Obama: I can't read this...)
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To: MadMax, the Grinning Reaper

I remember when you could get onto the DMV website and look up the name, address, and phone number of anyone based on their license plate number. And then people started using (or rather abusing) the system by calling people who, say, cut them off in traffic. I know one person who actually did that. I’m not in favor of the government handing out personal information, but I’m also not in favor of the government getting it in the first place unless it is volunteered. This data is not volunteered.


21 posted on 06/20/2013 5:53:57 PM PDT by Telepathic Intruder (The only thing the Left has learned from the failures of socialism is not to call it that)
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To: Pollster1

Well, I’d think even a sympathetic judge would want to know why he didn’t ask his phone company first.


22 posted on 06/20/2013 5:55:14 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Whatever promise that God has made, in Jesus it is yes. See my page.)
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To: Telepathic Intruder

True that there is no ‘Right to Privacy’ (only the S.C. could make up that whole cloth), but it is a far cry re: 4th when ‘public information’, per the gov’t, contains everything down to your genome.

The Constitution, being the base of our gov’t and Rule of Law, this whole ‘national security’ tripe is just that...B.S. You can have one, not both.


23 posted on 06/20/2013 6:00:49 PM PDT by i_robot73 (We hold that all individuals have the Right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives - LP.org)
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To: BarnacleCenturion

And all it will take is just ONE judge, to set it in motion.


24 posted on 06/20/2013 6:12:46 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Well, it is what the Sheeple voted for....)
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To: Pollster1
Once a year you can get a copy of your credit report. I think that in the surveillance age, this needs to be expanded. Governments and companies that collect and sell data about individuals should be required once a year to disclose what they have on you, including whatever they have inferred through data mining. It can be delivered in a XML based format and a cottage industry will grow up around writing software that helps you make sense of it.
25 posted on 06/20/2013 6:28:48 PM PDT by beef (Who Killed Kennewick Man?)
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To: Pollster1

the trick isn’t who he called and when... it’s everything else

location data showing where he was and when, independent of being on a call.

cell phone data of those around him

any association meta data derived over time showing associates or patterns of behavior

captured mic pickups from phones in the area (ALL mics are recording)

captured television audio ratings data in calls revealing date & time

text documents from the voice recognition processing... on calls and available mics

traffic cams pics of the suspect and victim

location data collected from the various RFID tags on the various vehicles

Internet records

purchasing records

etc...


26 posted on 06/20/2013 7:00:01 PM PDT by sten (fighting tyranny never goes out of style)
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To: i_robot73

You can have only one of the two, not the other, and certainly not both. Consider the constitution in another light, however. It is a trade of certain freedoms for a certain measure of security. But it is set forth in a contract, allowing for no more surrenders of freedom than is pre-agreed. The Left has already given up on that contract, however. Obama himself has said the constitution is a flawed document containing only negative liberties. In liberal code, that means it doesn’t provide enough security. More security means more concessions of freedom. How many times do you hear liberals say that the consitution is old and outdated? Too many times.


27 posted on 06/20/2013 7:11:20 PM PDT by Telepathic Intruder (The only thing the Left has learned from the failures of socialism is not to call it that)
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To: BarnacleCenturion

The thing is, some anonymous person/s could start publishing stuff on the internet claiming they had access to the NSA database.

The only way to disprove it would be to allow access to the real database. (even so the NSA data could be altered..thus no way to ever be certain)

Phone call audio would be the most explosive data to publish. This audio can be gathered in many ways. The NSA would be fingered as the guilty party who originally gathered it since their reputation is totally shot.

Mega scandal.


28 posted on 06/20/2013 7:41:29 PM PDT by Bobalu (It is not obama we are fighting, it is the media.)
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To: Pollster1
It would not harm national security to release a complete record of who this alleged murderer called and when. If the government is going to collect the data, he is entitled to use the data in his defense.

Amendment VI: In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall . . . have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor . . .

A+

29 posted on 06/20/2013 8:08:50 PM PDT by Ken H
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To: beef
Once a year you can get a copy of your credit report. I think that in the surveillance age, this needs to be expanded. Governments and companies that collect and sell data about individuals should be required once a year to disclose what they have on you, including whatever they have inferred through data mining. It can be delivered in a XML based format and a cottage industry will grow up around writing software that helps you make sense of it.

Excellent idea!

30 posted on 06/20/2013 8:10:31 PM PDT by Ken H
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Fruits of the most idiotic scandal ever.

How about focusing on our “representatives” that are legislating and funding the controversial activity? Nah, not sexy enough.


31 posted on 06/21/2013 2:27:31 AM PDT by Gene Eric (Don't be a statist!)
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To: ImJustAnotherOkie

Having experienced an unpleasant divorce before, I would say this would be a nightmare if NSA starts sharing info with divorce attorneys.


32 posted on 06/21/2013 2:54:15 AM PDT by TexGrill (Don't mess with Texas)
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To: BarnacleCenturion

Revolt will come out of this.


33 posted on 06/21/2013 3:14:55 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: BarnacleCenturion
"ERRORS CEASING TO BE DANGEROUS BE DANGEROUS WHEN IT IS PERMITTED FREELY TO CONTRAD..." click click {static}




CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?

34 posted on 06/21/2013 3:22:30 AM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: Biggirl

>>Revolt will come out of this.

The Fire is in the Mind of Termites, not on the roofs of houses.


35 posted on 06/21/2013 3:24:20 AM PDT by TArcher ("TO SECURE THESE RIGHTS, governments are instituted among men" -- Does that still work?)
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To: Vince Ferrer
Two cheers for the lawyers. If they can’t fix it, at least muck it up completely.

Who knows - might help stop the tyranny - start a petition that anything they have that's not classified be posted on the internet for anyone to see and also to let folks know what has been collected on them. Might be one of the few ways to stop the madness - illustrate that they don't need all that data.

36 posted on 06/21/2013 3:50:21 AM PDT by trebb (Where in the the hell has my country gone?)
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To: BarnacleCenturion

What a perversion of our legal system - on a scale almost unimaginable!

An immoral nation can’t expect anything better.

It’s not the Constitution that is the supreme law of the land. Rather, it’s the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God.


37 posted on 06/21/2013 4:10:47 AM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: Biggirl
Revolt will come out of this.

Sure it will. As soon as American Idol is over. Then you have the World Series to contend with, and after that football season is in full swing.

We don't have time for a revolt.

38 posted on 06/21/2013 6:19:15 AM PDT by unixfox (Abolish Slavery, Repeal The 16th Amendment!)
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